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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

Run our own event and make it popular? Fine! I'm gonna run my own tournament! Forgeworld only! None of this OP citadel! Narrative missions, naturally!
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

This is why I compared malestrom to narrative. They are both official ways to play the game. It's just no one wants to play them because they are the least balanced way to play.


Where do you get that from? For me narrative missions are the default game mode, pure eternal war/matched play we do only on special occasions (usually because of time restraints).


He's from america. America is more of ITC. Europe is more of ETC. And for example where I live pretty much all tournaments are combo of eternal war, maelstrom and kill points(max gap 6).

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
2465 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

Forgeworld isn't that expensive. You're typically only buying one or two models.

I wouldn't allow someone to proxy them unless the conversion was spectacular.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Wow, some real fun people who hate some maelstrom and index options.

First maelstrom is not balanced, it can be funish though. Why worry if it ends up in loss ? Are you keeping track of your wins and losses in some odd attempt to win at warhammer life ? Sure don't use it for a tournament but just crossing your arms and going all " I hates it !! " Relax, you don't need to play it, why not just live and let live.

As for the index units. Most of the index rules you can find online people took pics and slid them up there. Find someone who has them near you and see if you can't ya know, get the rules. Banning them because you don't like the fact the books are out of print is just being a tool for stuff that isn't OP in the first place.

As well some of the entries had options that GW placed out just haven't been touched upon in awhile. Like Chaplain on bike, Rough Riders, some of the razorback options to name a few. The mentality of wanting them gone because you don't like them or don't have them is really poor form on many levels. Begrudging someone else for lack of possession.

So I don't have the new assassin rules, couldn't get them where I'm at, should I disallow their use ? I feel left out !! No, I just wish GW would put the rules out somewhere else or maybe I can run into someone who has them so I can get some pics and use my assassins once more.

The idea of denial based on not having something is just silly and feels like bitterness to a large degree.

   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

Yeah I get the impression that a lot of people are very insecure about gaming and are afraid to have a bit of fun.

40k is supposed to be a fun, friendly, social experience. If you can't have that unless you can control variables that make you feel more comfortable then you are very immature. In a tournament is different of course, but most games are player outside of tournaments.

Perhaps the most vocal forum users are just the most socially inept and awkward people in the hobby. It would explain their crazed hyperbole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 08:45:56


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I rarely see an actual FW model, and its even rarer to see somebody with the actual rules for their model other than a screenshot.

I'd talk to your tournament organisers about your last point - do the event packs not mandate you must fetch an official copy of the rules you're using? In which case you'd expect the FW Index (which is in print) or at least an official PDF copy (I think there is one, but please correct me if I'm wrong), rather than merely a screenshot.

Mandating an actual FW model is trickier, but at the very least people should have to bring the proper rules documents for them.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

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Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Yeah. If somebody comes to tournament with screenshot(fakeable) or battlescribe print(fakeable) as only source of rule be prepared to be told model won't be used in game.

No rules, no game. If you can't show actual rules to opponent from source that isn't easily fakeable(battlescribe data is trivial to modify) then don't expect to be able to use the model.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
2465 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. If somebody comes to tournament with screenshot(fakeable) or battlescribe print(fakeable) as only source of rule be prepared to be told model won't be used in game.

No rules, no game. If you can't show actual rules to opponent from source that isn't easily fakeable(battlescribe data is trivial to modify) then don't expect to be able to use the model.


I agree with this. You need the official printed rues, FAQs, Chapter Approved, etc

This applies to everything in the game.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores




My (so minor it barely exists) with it would be that forgeworld was initially meant to make display pieces rather than gaming pieces. My impression has been that this can make lists rather wonky as rules were rather hastily created for these pieces due to fan demand.

If I were a competitively minded guy I'd say narrative only...then again I'd say that for allegiance traits, strategems and soup too if I were really interested in a balanced game.
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

And 40k was initially made as a skirmish game.

The current FW rules work perfectly in the game.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores




 Ishagu wrote:
And 40k was initially made as a skirmish game.

The current FW rules work perfectly in the game.


Cool, I don't actually care in the slightest. I just, like most others on here, love the sound of my own voice.
   
Made in us
Frenzied Juggernaut





ft. Bragg

Due to GW placing a FW point tax... Almost all FW models are pointef out of competitiveness (some exceptions). You're better off just taking codex units usually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 10:54:34


Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
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Made in ca
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot



Canada

 Dysartes wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I rarely see an actual FW model, and its even rarer to see somebody with the actual rules for their model other than a screenshot.

I'd talk to your tournament organisers about your last point - do the event packs not mandate you must fetch an official copy of the rules you're using? In which case you'd expect the FW Index (which is in print) or at least an official PDF copy (I think there is one, but please correct me if I'm wrong), rather than merely a screenshot.

Mandating an actual FW model is trickier, but at the very least people should have to bring the proper rules documents for them.


We're a fairly chill community and I don't get too fussed. These are friends - even at tournaments! Might be different in a larger scale event. I think that it would be healthier for the game if the popular, playable FW models (the Dreads) were made available mainstream as plastic kits. Leave the huge TItans etc for special order. Alternatively, give normal Dreadnaughts an invul save and better weapons loadouts and problem solved.

I don't consider myself a hobby snob, but I do think that models should at least be authentic. I'm not talking about 3rd party bits for cool conversions, but the base model should be real. Maybe that makes me a hobby snob?

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in ch
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. If somebody comes to tournament with screenshot(fakeable) or battlescribe print(fakeable) as only source of rule be prepared to be told model won't be used in game.

No rules, no game. If you can't show actual rules to opponent from source that isn't easily fakeable(battlescribe data is trivial to modify) then don't expect to be able to use the model.


What about a printout of the rules? I f.e. am stuck with that since the apple device which i have the rules on is fairly non transportable.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dai wrote:
My (so minor it barely exists) with it would be that forgeworld was initially meant to make display pieces rather than gaming pieces. My impression has been that this can make lists rather wonky as rules were rather hastily created for these pieces due to fan demand.

If I were a competitively minded guy I'd say narrative only...then again I'd say that for allegiance traits, strategems and soup too if I were really interested in a balanced game.


oh he, let's kill off the rules for armies that existed for 10 years+ in some cases , because GW fethed the recent rulesup.

Logic 100.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 12:22:07


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

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 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah I get the impression that a lot of people are very insecure about gaming and are afraid to have a bit of fun.

40k is supposed to be a fun, friendly, social experience. If you can't have that unless you can control variables that make you feel more comfortable then you are very immature. In a tournament is different of course, but most games are player outside of tournaments.

Perhaps the most vocal forum users are just the most socially inept and awkward people in the hobby. It would explain their crazed hyperbole.


I just like variables reduced because i like starcraft more and want 40k to be more similar. Quit making baseless assumptions.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lol No rules, no play? Little nutz? And how do you enforce it?

If Bob who you play every week forgets to bring his SM dex to your tourney do you tell him "no games Bob pack up and head home"?

And Recasters? How are you telling something is Recast? What is this magic wand? Are you cutting their painted Mini opening and sniffing the Plastic?

The only thing this thread is good for so far is telling who is an actual TO, and who runs their mouth alot.

In game that people literally have to be told to take a shower before they show to play, you guys are hoping that your can ban all sorts of stuff, and change what people bring.

Your event sounds like a recipe for low attendance.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Reemule wrote:
Lol No rules, no play? Little nutz? And how do you enforce it?


It's easy to enforce, you just check the players have the rules with them when they turn up.

Sure if its just the club having a tourney one week instead of regular club night then sure loaning books and the guy who forgets something etc... might all be perfectly allowed.

The National competition though, you can bet they will turn away the one or two who don't turn up with their rules.



Having the rules avoids a huge number of rule conflicts and accidental mistakes. These are not simple games like chess, heck just remember what stats your models have is not easy let alone all the ins and outs of abiltiies and interactions. So yeah having the rules with you is pretty basic requirements for a tournament. It's right up there with bring your dice, tape measure, models and suchlike.
Of course some events might have a spare book here and there and if its at a GW store they might have a store copy you can loan for the day. So there are practical solutions that wont' be turning someone away, however in general most would expect players to turn up to a competitive event with all the equipment to play.

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I've had to monitor Eldar players before with their own codex. So no, they have to have it.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Reemule wrote:
Lol No rules, no play? Little nutz? And how do you enforce it?

If Bob who you play every week forgets to bring his SM dex to your tourney do you tell him "no games Bob pack up and head home"?

And Recasters? How are you telling something is Recast? What is this magic wand? Are you cutting their painted Mini opening and sniffing the Plastic?

The only thing this thread is good for so far is telling who is an actual TO, and who runs their mouth alot.

In game that people literally have to be told to take a shower before they show to play, you guys are hoping that your can ban all sorts of stuff, and change what people bring.

Your event sounds like a recipe for low attendance.



Howabout not playing vs you? How you going to force me? Complain to judge? He can't allow you to play without rules.

Or wanna play vs my dda that shoots 3d6 shots autohit? Reads righw here in this printout! Oh and ignores invulnerable saves as well. Let's play!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 13:29:28


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
2465 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Martel732 wrote:
I've had to monitor Eldar players before with their own codex. So no, they have to have it.


Even honest players can easily make mistakes. Lets not forget rules change and shift between editions, many expeirenced players can easily end up playing rules "the old way" or miss remembering a stat etc... IT's part of both players duty to help the other in ensuring that things aren't forgotten and that fair play is achieved. It's not playing "gotcha" its just keeping aware of the game state and keeping an eye out for mistakes.


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Oh we had two Eldar players who make "mistakes".
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I've had players of basically all factions make "mistakes".

The sloppy players are probably making just as many "mistakes" in your favor as theirs, but those are harder to notice.

There have only been a few "that guys" that make notably more "mistakes" in their favor as opposed to yours. And they haven't been Eldar players.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I"m not talking generalities. I mean I've had to do this with two specific players who happened to be Eldar.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Dai wrote:
My (so minor it barely exists) with it would be that forgeworld was initially meant to make display pieces rather than gaming pieces. My impression has been that this can make lists rather wonky as rules were rather hastily created for these pieces due to fan demand.

If I were a competitively minded guy I'd say narrative only...then again I'd say that for allegiance traits, strategems and soup too if I were really interested in a balanced game.
FW rules are handled entirely by the core GW studio now, and have never presented the balance issues many attribute to FW in the past (we've certainly never seen anything like 7E Scatterbikes or Invisiblity, 4E Inviciskimmers, etc out of FW).

More to the point however, everything GW makes is a display piece, by their own admission. GW is in the business of making models for collectors according to what they tell their shareholders, the game and unit rules are just a vehicle to give people and excuse to use and play with their models and thus a reason to buy more models.

What FW makes is stuff that either the main studio isn't interested in or doesn't have time for (30k stuff, alternate IG model lines, tank variants, etc), or stuff that can't be made in plastic due to cost or design issues.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I rarely see an actual FW model, and its even rarer to see somebody with the actual rules for their model other than a screenshot.
This sort of thing I think is the big issue. In my experience, a *lot* of the consternation over FW eventually turns out to have been a result of someone in past editions without actual rules on hand making up overpowered stuff on their own with a proxy model or some kitbashed thing they think looks cool and then saying "oh, it's Forgeworld", or just making it up after they bought a model and never bought the appropriate Imperial Armour book, and then that ends up poisoning the well for years. I've seen this more than once on here over the years, and after informing people what the actual rules were and how they worked, it turned out there was nothing actually wrong with the FW unit, someone was just flat out cheating.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 14:12:58


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I know at one store I frequent people audibly groan and sigh when That Guy breaks out his Astraeus Grav Boat, or his Leviathan Naughts. It's just, people playing to have fun, get their games wrecked by that guy plopping down a stupidly ruled model. To be fair they'd likely feel the same way as if someone plopped down any super-heavy, FW or not.

It's not illegal, and it's some of the best options in the game if you are competitive. You just have to gauge your crowd. Not everyone wants to play that way, and I think the onus is one both parties to state that in the beginning.

I'm here for fun and to learn. I'm here to destroy the earth and drink redbull. Ok, well, we should find other opponents.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 15:19:22


 
   
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In My Lab

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I know at one store I frequent people audibly groan and sigh when That Guy breaks out his Astraeus Grav Boat, or his Leviathan Naughts. It's just, people playing to have fun, get their games wrecked by that guy plopping down a stupidly ruled model. To be fair they'd likely feel the same way as if someone plopped down any super-heavy, FW or not.

It's not illegal, and it's some of the best options in the game if you are competitive. You just have to gauge your crowd. Not everyone wants to play that way, and I think the onus is one both parties to state that in the beginning.

I'm here for fun and to learn. I'm here to destroy the earth and drink redbull. Ok, well, we should find other opponents.
Any Superheavy?

*Looks at the Stompa.*

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Reemule wrote:
Lol No rules, no play? Little nutz? And how do you enforce it?

If Bob who you play every week forgets to bring his SM dex to your tourney do you tell him "no games Bob pack up and head home"?

Either you have to show the books when you sign in for the event, or you have judges spot-check a % of tables each round to ensure they have the materials with them - and appropriate censure is listed in the tournament pack if you do not comply with this. I'd prefer the former approach, myself, but the latter could also work.

And if Bob entered the event and, presumably, read the tournament pack, so knew that he was required to have his books (or ebooks) with him, then yes, Bob gets to go home if he doesn't have his material at an organised event. If he lives close enough, and is OK with eating a loss round 1 while he goes and gets the book, then that would also be acceptable - and you can be fairly confident his is going to make damn sure he has it with him the next time.

Reemule wrote:
And Recasters? How are you telling something is Recast? What is this magic wand? Are you cutting their painted Mini opening and sniffing the Plastic?

Yeah, recasts are a tricky thing - something I noted earlier. I'd prefer it for people to use original models, but I have no idea how you'd enforce it. and if you can't enforce it, you probably shouldn't make it an event rule.

Reemule wrote:
The only thing this thread is good for so far is telling who is an actual TO, and who runs their mouth alot (sic).

"A lot", not "alot" - sheesh.

And while I haven't run an event for a couple of editions, I have run them in the past. If I were to run one today, you can be certain that "Thou shalt have a copy of your rules" would be close to rule #1 in the event pack.

Darned Battlescribe generation, thinking they don;t have to have the books...

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Dakka Veteran




What about the people with Tablets? Are you going to spend a 1/2 hour going person to person and checking these? For events that start late and go later?

I thought you were about rules that were enforceable?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut







Reemule wrote:
What about the people with Tablets? Are you going to spend a 1/2 hour going person to person and checking these? For events that start late and go later?

I thought you were about rules that were enforceable?

Are you really trying to claim it would be impossible for people with tablets to have a method of showing the ebooks/PDFs of their books in a timely fashion?

Having said that, I use the physical versions, but if you can't quickly show the books on a tablet when asked, then I question their usability in a tournament situation.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
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Dakka Veteran




No Its un-enforceable.

Example I own every Epub from GW. I keep them in a drop box. I show to the event with my ride and he didn't bring his SM book. I share my Drop box with him and now he has the Epub.

Is that okay?

Guy shows up with the old Chaos dex, says he isn't using anything new? You sending him home?

Chess clocks mean my time is my time. If I choose to spend it checking a epub, its good to go. You checking an out of date physical copy isn't good. Sounds shady.

I understand this conversation is hypothetical man some of these suggestions are play silly.
   
 
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