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Likes always, I finish I game I begin to think in the next one. I was looking around my models, and back and hidden in shadows I saw my Land Speeder, and I thought about including it in my next match.
I will play my army as Raven Guard, so I was thinking about their -1 to hit, and I thought that maybe one support LS holding distance and shooting could be a good idea.
In general, are they a waste of points or can they have a good use? Loadout?
Chapter Tactics applies to Infantry, Bikes, and Dreadnaughts, so your Land Speeders won't get the -1 to hit. Personally I think the Land Speeder is pretty overpriced in the current rules; a Razorback does pretty much anything it can do with four extra wounds and T7 for an extra 20pts.
I like my Landspeeder Typhoon, it's fast and has a lot of anti-infantry dakka. Unfortunately my opponents can see that too, and know it's pretty easy to kill, so it's usually one of the first units to get wiped off the table
Light speeders and light walkers are a pretty tough ask in 40K where vehicles are currently on the back-foot rules wise. The lack of chapter traits is an issue for sure.
My buddy uses a Dark Angels one to decent effect, mainly because they have a missile stratagem to tie in with Whirlwinds, etc.
Elbows wrote: Light speeders and light walkers are a pretty tough ask in 40K where vehicles are currently on the back-foot rules wise. The lack of chapter traits is an issue for sure.
My buddy uses a Dark Angels one to decent effect, mainly because they have a missile stratagem to tie in with Whirlwinds, etc.
Vanilla Marines have that strategem as well, and the Whirlwind is a pretty good tank for the points.
Why Land Speeders don't have the bike key word is quite beyond my capacity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/20 18:00:43
I struggle with Vypers till I replaced them with Hornets which are very reasonable (tankier, faster, sexier). Basic speeders/heavy bikes are definitely a tough sell though. Now, having said that - I play on some pretty heavily terrain-covered tables, including lakes and rivers, etc...so they do have added versatility, but I know most people play on very boring, minimalist terrain tables. The heavy terrain also helps them survive longer.
Elbows wrote: Light speeders and light walkers are a pretty tough ask in 40K where vehicles are currently on the back-foot rules wise. The lack of chapter traits is an issue for sure.
My buddy uses a Dark Angels one to decent effect, mainly because they have a missile stratagem to tie in with Whirlwinds, etc.
Ravenwing Land Speeders also get Jink (4+ Invulnerable save after Advancing) and access to the Darkshroud aura (bubble of -1 to hit), which makes them a lot tougher than normal Land Speeders for the same price. Light skimmers that work in 8e tend to have to-hit penalties, Invulnerable saves, or both; ex. Venoms.
If the body of it was maybe 30-35 points, you could do a pretty potent little mobile fire base with Heavy bolters/assault cannons and Shrike (gotta be shrike, regular captain not good enough to offset the 4+ to hit.)
At 50pts before guns they're expensive melta pinatas.
My Typhoons' serve pretty well as distraction carnifex.
It's especially good when my opponent under/overestimates their toughness (T6 I feel like is the sweet spot for wasting opponents' shooting). When they under estimate, they need to dedicate another unit to shoot at it else it takes a 2d6 S4 + 3 S5 shots at its screen units. When they overestimate, they end up wasting their quality shot otherwise better spent.
All in all, it's tad bit on the pricy side and well over competitive range, but they're fun to use.
Ravenwing is a little different as you can have several Typhoon land speeders on backline and they won't get targeted due to the rest of army up front. Alternatively you can maybe use cheap dakka speeders to screen out the Talon Master and Sammy from being targeted.
bullyboy wrote: Ravenwing is a little different as you can have several Typhoon land speeders on backline and they won't get targeted due to the rest of army up front. Alternatively you can maybe use cheap dakka speeders to screen out the Talon Master and Sammy from being targeted.
Typically they get screened by a unit of RBK's whom they tailgate to provide the reroll wound aura.
I like my speeders, and flew them in editions past when they had a bad rap. But they might be getting a little dusty.
The -1 to hit hurts the MM and AsC loads. As one of my preferred uses was as a MM platform, that hurt.
With directional would allocation, they provided a nice mobile firepower to “snipe” models off the sides of units. Not in 8th.
I still like the TML/HB speeder, but what does it bring to the table that a dev squad doesn’t? What does it loose? It has mobility, which can be nice, but is not something it needs for the fire support job. It looses the ability to easily gain cover and CT.
They are no so bad that you are going to automatically loose for taking them. But you are going to water down your list a bit. Of course, in casual play, that’s not a huge deal, because you opponent is probably also taking units that he likes, despite the fact that they are not top-table material.
They are a good way of getting extra firepower into a themed list. If I want more guns in a mechanized marine armored column, I don’t want a dev squad. I want something that can keep rolling. Speeders are good for that. I’ve also used them in a “I can’t believe it’s not Eldar” list where everybody was in the air and not getting mud on their boots.
bullyboy wrote: Ravenwing is a little different as you can have several Typhoon land speeders on backline and they won't get targeted due to the rest of army up front. Alternatively you can maybe use cheap dakka speeders to screen out the Talon Master and Sammy from being targeted.
Typically they get screened by a unit of RBK's whom they tailgate to provide the reroll wound aura.
sometimes hard to screen out Hemlocks which will kill a Talonmaster in one round of shooting. I feel that you should be positioning the BKs with targeting enemy in mind and using something else to protect the RW characters. Regular bikes do the same thing too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The -1 to hit can be mitigated by the RW strategem Signal the Attack from Vigilus, this allows them to keep their mobility.
As to the Tempest, I like the sound of that craft on paper, but the fact that it's not Ravenwing makes it a little bit of a bummer since it will only get the reroll 1s from sammael (not terrible I guess)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/21 14:10:40
AnomanderRake wrote: Chapter Tactics applies to Infantry, Bikes, and Dreadnaughts, so your Land Speeders won't get the -1 to hit. Personally I think the Land Speeder is pretty overpriced in the current rules; a Razorback does pretty much anything it can do with four extra wounds and T7 for an extra 20pts.
I can't believe that in the two years since 8th launched, the rules team has still refused to say or do anything about this. It's a constant fu to marine players, who already have to deal with a split army and a trash tier codex.
Marines are not the only army to have that problem. Custodes only get The Emperor's Chosen on infantry and bikes (and the Contemptor really wants it), and other armies that don't have it explicitly still have it implicitly because of what their traits actually do.
Marines and Marine Vehicles certainly have problems, but that complaint has never been quite as valid as it's made out to be.
(Vanilla Land Speeders should totally have the BIKER keyword though.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/21 16:34:51
Alex_85 wrote: Oh true, no CT. This is one of the biggest issues. Totally forgot it because I mostly use Dreadnoughts.
I still don´t understood why GW doesn´t give CT to our vehicles. It is so ridiculous for our overpriced vehicles...
Well, then I think my LS will continue in shadows ( and not exactly RG ones).
So that's it? the 1st person to say something negative sways you not to use your model?
I challenge you to use it. Afterall, what do you have to lose? A handful of points? Maybe a game?
When I try a different Chapter I like to play as many units posible with the CT, for fun. I only have one LS, if I had 2 of them maybe I would place them so that I could use at least one of them before they are wiped out. For those points I can have a stronger Devastators unit, they are of my favourites. For example now that Kghits can have a maximun of 4++ I will still use my Gallant or my Crusader. But I like to play my SM with CT.
The Deer Hunter wrote: It would be better if chapter tactis would apply only to infantry, bike and Dreadnought in all codex.
Not quite sure I follow, in that case my Tyranids still get ALL of their units with their tactics equiv.
I would tone down the strength of tactics across the board and make every unit in said army affected.
Agreed. -1 to hit across the board (looking at you Alaitoc) should not exist as a form of chapter tactics. All CT's should revolve around gaining benefits by doing X (i.e., if you don't move, gain this; if you advanced, gain this; etc). "if you're away 12", gain -1 to hit" would only make sense if the said army is better within 12", but we all know no such thing exists as melee is dead in 8th ed.
I always thought things like the -1 needs to be handled like tyranids get ours, we have malenthropes and venomthropes handing it out in a bubble, other armies should do the same.
Raven Guard company masters - allied units within 6" get -1 to hit when shot at beyond 12" and so on, either you castle up and enjoy the benefit but struggle as much to hold objectives across the board and so on.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I always thought things like the -1 needs to be handled like tyranids get ours, we have malenthropes and venomthropes handing it out in a bubble, other armies should do the same.
Raven Guard company masters - allied units within 6" get -1 to hit when shot at beyond 12" and so on, either you castle up and enjoy the benefit but struggle as much to hold objectives across the board and so on.
Space Marines already have to castle up because their shooting is garbage without the rerolls. If anything they need less incentive to castle up.
I've been thinking that all the "reroll 1s to [x]" characters in Vanilla Marines need to grant rerolls both to hit and to wound instead of one or the other;bChaplains for melee, Lieutenants for ranged, Captains for both. Some people have objected that it would make the need to castle worse, but that's not true. What it would do is let marines spread out more since they wouldn't need to double up their buffing characters in any given area. You're probably still taking four buffing characters, but they can cover more ground.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 15:19:31
I'm an old time player that hasn't played 8th yet. I was thinking I'd try running a large speeder squadron with my Flesh Tearers using the whirlwind targeting strategy. Primarily because every Blood Angel tactic I see talked about involves those neat relics successor chapters can't have. Also it would be something unexpected (with every other BA player running the same things)
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