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I see that you can use some of the same units for the different space marine subfactions (ultra, wolves etc) which i think is confusing in terms on how the subfactions differ. Can someone explain this please? Can units from different subfactions be used in the same list etc?

While im on the space marine subject, what does primaris space marines mean? Is it like a battalion (from age of sigmar, dont know if they work the same in 40k) that req specifik units? Can they be used with other space marines?

Thanks!

Alrighty, regarding space marines and the various chapters out there. all tend to have a "core" that is the same, Tactical Squads, Devestator Squads, assault Marines, rhinos, Land Raiders.. but the various differant space marine codices have additional stuff unique to them, as well as special rules (which can be as subtle as what wargear they can take) and they also have unique units. Over all I reccomend studying the lore and going with whatever chapter you like the best. as for primaris marines, no they're noa anything like that. they're simply a new type of marine that has been deployed. many eistablished chapters run a mix of both primaris and normal. some new chapters run pure primaris. and there are some grognard chapters (no canon examples) that simply don't use primaris.

Oh where to start? Within the 40k game there are major factions like Imperium, chaos, aeldari, other xenos are independent. You could say that you have an imperium army or something more specific.

A players army is made of detachments, usually up to 3 of em, that organize your units. Usually by sub-faction due to bonuses for being "battle forged" meaning no out of place faction keywords.

There are general sub-faction keywords like Astartes (space marines), adeptus mechanicus, astra militarum. You could name one of your detachments like that and choose anything that fills the slots so long as it includes that keyword. So if you didn't care about getting the bonuses you could have an Astartes detachment with mixed chapter-exclusive units. Or so I think, it might have been patched, either way the bonuses are nice so you should probably chose a more specific faction keyword for the detachment.

Specific detachment keywords are Chapters for Astartes. Here you'll find Ultramarines, Salamanders, Grey knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolfs etc. The last 4 have their own books b/c as far as I can tell marines fans are reeaaallly into not being 'just space marine' fans. Either way the unit named "tactical marines" (basic space marines) can be taken by any of these chapters (maaaybe not grey knights, they get variations on marines stuff). Some chapters have access to unique or limited variations of which there are tons.

The newest model range for Astartes is the primaris line. They're taller and more durable. The basic unit is "intercessors" and there are many variations already that most chapters have access to. They're all Astartes of whatever Chapter you feel like calling them.

So you could have an imperium army made of up Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Ultramarines each in their own detachment getting all their self-contained bonuses. Or an all Ultramarines army. To me they'd both me space marine armies since either is made up of a bunch of marines, I'll get flack for saying that.

There are also Heretic Astartes, but they fall under the Chaos faction and as such can't mix with non-Heretics. Except for Fallen units, cuz every rule needs an exception or five.

Icefighter wrote:
I see that you can use some of the same units for the different space marine subfactions (ultra, wolves etc) which i think is confusing in terms on how the subfactions differ. Can someone explain this please? Can units from different subfactions be used in the same list etc?

While im on the space marine subject, what does primaris space marines mean? Is it like a battalion (from age of sigmar, dont know if they work the same in 40k) that req specifik units? Can they be used with other space marines?

Thanks!

The easiest way to know what units a faction can take, are to get that faction's codex. Almost everything in that book may be taken by that faction. You mentioned two sub-factions: ultra (Ultramarines) and wolves (Space Wolves). While both of these are kind of sub-factions in lore, from a rules perspective, only the Ultramarines are a sub-faction. They are a component chapter of Codex: Space Marines. Space Wolves, on the other hand, have entirely their own book, Codex: Space Wolves, so from a rules perspective, might be considered entirely their own faction. Just to confuse you a little, we also have the Imperium super-faction that may incorporate both the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves. All of these factions can tie into each other through the use of common keywords, which appear throughout different books, but it's probably best not to get into that yet. To start with, I suggest you first choose an army that interests you. You can check the Games-Workshop website here. On the left of the page you should see a list showing Armies of the Imperium, Armies of Chaos, and Xenos Armies respectively. Each of the checkboxes beneath these headings should contain a single, self contained army. If you let us know which one interests you, we can give you much better advice.

So, this is complicated.

1. For Space Marines, the sub-factions are called Chapters. Chapters will have one or more specific rules that apply only to models from those Chapters. Most Chapters have access to unit types that are the same. So, Space Marine units are things like Tacticals (your basic guy) Devastators (heavy weapon guys), Bikers, Predator Tanks, etc. Each of these units is common to any Space Marine army and can belong to any of the Chapters. It's possible to mix units from sub-factions in an army if you want. The rulebook tells you how to do this. Some Chapters have units specific only to them. The Codex books explain this.

2. Primaris are a new type of Space Marine. Up until 8th edition was released a couple of years ago, all Space Marines were the same type. Now there's a new type called Primaris, which have a bunch of their own vehicles and unit types to go along with them. They're essentially bigger and tougher than regular Marines, but still useable in most Space Marine lists alongside the older regular Space Marines.

As mentioned above, it might be a good idea to check out the GW website to help understand how this works.

Thanks for the help guys ! I have two follow-up questions.

1. Im leaning towards ultramarines, you know any beginner-ish army that is equal to 1k~ points in age of sigmar? Any insta-pick heroes maybe?

2. In age of sigmar I only have to look up thinks online in order to play my army, what do i need for 40k in terms of rules that i can't find online?

1. Ultramarines on the tabletop seem to revolve around Guilliman (who gives all your guys rerolls on all to-hit and to-wound rolls) and Tigurius (who gives the enemy a -1 to hit one of your units). Most Ultramarines lists I see are built around maximizing those two.
-1a. Mind that the points totals in AoS and 40k don't line up exactly; a 1,000pt AoS army might have a model count closer to a 500-750pt 40k army depending on what faction you're playing. If you like Primaris Marines the SM half of the Dark Imperium box is a decent starting point; it's usually ~$75 on Ebay and gets you a legal (if top-heavy) Patrol detachment totalling ~700pts.

2. You need at minimum a rulebook (the 40k core rulebook), the most recent Chapter Approved (the 40k equivalent of the General's Handbook in Sigmar, it has the regular points updates), and the Codex (in your case Codex: Space Marines). You can get by with just Battlescribe (the most popular community army-building app) but it isn't always accurate or promptly updated.

Icefighter wrote:
Thanks for the help guys ! I have two follow-up questions.

1. Im leaning towards ultramarines, you know any beginner-ish army that is equal to 1k~ points in age of sigmar? Any insta-pick heroes maybe?

2. In age of sigmar I only have to look up thinks online in order to play my army, what do i need for 40k in terms of rules that i can't find online?

Guilliman is way too expensive points-wise for a 1k game. He's proportionally more efficient the more he can buff, and you won't have enough other stuff to make him work.

In addition, nothing locks you into always being Ultramarines if you're Adeptus Astartes; you can be Ultramarines one day and Raven Guard the next. You cannot be Ultramarines one day and then Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Dark Angels the next, because those are completely different factions, even though they are in the fluff also "Space Marines".

Characters are important for you, and they're pretty smashy, but in general you really want them for their buffs. You need good units too to benefit from them. Space Marines do have a abnormally high character density in their lists, because they're to some degree dependent upon stacking multiple aura buffs on units. Captains and Lieutenants [with their re-roll 1's to hit and to wound respectively] will be important for your army, and in general you might exhibit a tendency to "ball up" around them to get as many units in their aura as you can.

An example small-size list might look like:
Phobos Captain
Lieutenant
Intercessors x10
Intercessors x5
Intercessors x5
Scouts
Primaris Ancient
Hellblasters x10
or something, with the very dangerous large Intercessors and Hellblasters squad clumping up around the characters to benefit from their auras and abilities while the other squads hold objectives and screen the blob.



Mechanically, I'd actually highly reccommend Raven Guard in general if you're not taking Guilliman. Combining the -1 to hit from 12" away with medium-range guns [and Bolter Discipline + Veteran Intercessors] makes a survivable force that can gun down most comers. Ultramarines is good because of Guilliman's aura, and against aggressive armies that like the skirmish to lock up your shooters.

Mind explain what raven guard is and what it includes/excludes? I can't find it on the gw homepage but i guess its some kind of subfaction to space marines that isnt listed there for some reason? Thanks alot for the advises!

There are twelve "Adeptus Astartes" factions that have distinct keywords, Chapter Tactics or equivalent, unique stratagems, named characters, etc.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights have their own books. The "Space Marines" book covers the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, and Black Templars. Describing an army as a "Raven Guard" army is similar to describing an Age of Sigmar army as a "Hammers of Sigmar" army; they're a more specific sub-division of the Space Marines/Stormcast Eternals army book that has some unique abilities but doesn't have very many unique models.

The Raven Guard in particular have an army-wide ability that makes their non-vehicle units harder to shoot at from further away, which makes them good for gunline v. gunline matchups as your guns are better defended from their guns. Anything in the Space Marines section of the GW site that isn't a named unique character can be used for them, and they don't have any of their own unique units.

Icefighter wrote:
Mind explain what raven guard is and what it includes/excludes? I can't find it on the gw homepage but i guess its some kind of subfaction to space marines that isnt listed there for some reason? Thanks alot for the advises!

This is going to get a little confusing: There are a group of 4 codecies that have an overall mostly-identical unit pool and have many models in common collectively referred to as the Marine codecies: Adeptus Astartes, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels. These are, however, primary factions [there's a lot more to it when it comes to how keywords interact, but for all intents and purposes, they're standalone armies separate from each other]

Most codecies have an option to select a subfaction that confers a specific bonus and access to a small pool of unique characters. Ultramarines and Raven Guard are subfactions of the Adeptus Astartes book, so you can select to be either as part of making any given detachment compliant with the Adeptus Astartes codex.

To further confuse the matter, there's Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters of Battle [and the Chaos Marines CSM, DG, and TS] who are marine-like in basic unit profile with small deviancies [Storm Bolters + Force Weapons, Special Issue Ammunition, and -1S -1T, respectively], but I don't consider them to be part of the Marine Codecies supercategory because they're overall very different in playstyle and share few units and models in common.

You made it really hard for me to choose now x)

Any suggestions lol? Preferably something that includes both some on-foot marines and some bigger single unit. Any contenders for that within this vast space marine realm?

Icefighter wrote:
You made it really hard for me to choose now x)

Any suggestions lol? Preferably something that includes both some on-foot marines and some bigger single unit. Any contenders for that within this vast space marine realm?

Go straight Adeptus Astartes, and paint yourself however you want. It's the most general, with the most options and is fairly solid.

This gives you 6 subfaction doctrines to chose from for any given detachment in any given game to complement your list: Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Salamanders, White Scars, Black Templars, and Imperial Fists. In general, Raven Guard has the strongest doctrinal bonus; but Roboute Guilliman is an Ultramarine and is a very strong named character in large lists [Ultramarines doctrine isn't bad either].


Ultramarines are not a primary faction. They're a subfaction of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. You're not locked into your subfaction day-to-day, but you are locked into your primary faction [without spending more money]

Icefighter wrote:
You made it really hard for me to choose now x)

Any suggestions lol? Preferably something that includes both some on-foot marines and some bigger single unit. Any contenders for that within this vast space marine realm?

Ultramarines with Gulliman is an obvious one. and something to build towards. beyond that, Ultramarines backed by a tank of some sort isn't a bad idea. IMHO your first stop should be dark Imperium. that'll give you a great base right out of the box.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ultramarines are not a primary faction. They're a subfaction of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. You're not locked into your subfaction day-to-day, but you are locked into your primary faction [without spending more money]

This is honestly kind of nonsense. If you're willing to flip between Chapter Tactics, adding Wolves and Angels to the list of things you can flip between isn't any more unreasonable.

Voss wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ultramarines are not a primary faction. They're a subfaction of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. You're not locked into your subfaction day-to-day, but you are locked into your primary faction [without spending more money]

This is honestly kind of nonsense. If you're willing to flip between Chapter Tactics, adding Wolves and Angels to the list of things you can flip between isn't any more unreasonable.

Angels have a lot more differing options and Wolves have some subtle core differances.

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ultramarines are not a primary faction. They're a subfaction of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. You're not locked into your subfaction day-to-day, but you are locked into your primary faction [without spending more money]

This is honestly kind of nonsense. If you're willing to flip between Chapter Tactics, adding Wolves and Angels to the list of things you can flip between isn't any more unreasonable.

Angels have a lot more differing options and Wolves have some subtle core differances.

Sure? But aside from swapping a heavy weapon guy for a special weapon guy, or arranging the heavy weapon squad slightly differently, the basic SM models function just fine.

But the idea that you aren't locked into a chapter choice 'day to day' but switching to other marine books is completely verboten is a load of twaddle. Especially since some players are known to go the extra step and suddenly be deathwatch or chaos marines as well.

Voss wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ultramarines are not a primary faction. They're a subfaction of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. You're not locked into your subfaction day-to-day, but you are locked into your primary faction [without spending more money]

This is honestly kind of nonsense. If you're willing to flip between Chapter Tactics, adding Wolves and Angels to the list of things you can flip between isn't any more unreasonable.

I can see what you mean, as all astartes can be allied, and/or proxy'd if you so choose, but Wolves, angles (blood, Dark), GK and base marines all look slightly different.
So while you could build an army then paint and play any rule set you want, would would need to be fairly familiar with the rule sets from 5 different astartes codex, which might be a stretch for a new 40k player.

It does make more sense to run the main space marine book and then swap the sub factions as you so choose.

Voss wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ultramarines are not a primary faction. They're a subfaction of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. You're not locked into your subfaction day-to-day, but you are locked into your primary faction [without spending more money]

This is honestly kind of nonsense. If you're willing to flip between Chapter Tactics, adding Wolves and Angels to the list of things you can flip between isn't any more unreasonable.

Apart from the obviously not cross-compatible units...

You would have to buy a new codex. You absolutely could play wolves as proxy BA or something [she says, having done exactly that in the past], though it would require some additional investment in units and a codex to facilitate full and regular cross-compatibility beyond experimental proxy efforts.

Lets say I start with the units from the dark imperium pack, which seems to be only primaris guys. Can i play them as one of these factions (raven guard for example) straight away or do i have to buy anything else to make them to classify as raven guard? Like a certain hero.

Sry if I ask repeatable questions x)

Icefighter wrote:
Lets say I start with the units from the dark imperium pack, which seems to be only primaris guys. Can i play them as one of these factions (raven guard for example) straight away or do i have to buy anything else to make them to classify as raven guard? Like a certain hero.

Sry if I ask repeatable questions x)

You don't need anything else. You're good to go using the basic kits.

Icefighter wrote:
Lets say I start with the units from the dark imperium pack, which seems to be only primaris guys. Can i play them as one of these factions (raven guard for example) straight away or do i have to buy anything else to make them to classify as raven guard? Like a certain hero.

Sry if I ask repeatable questions x)

Of the 5 marine sub-factions pretty much all of their troops, elites, dreads, tanks & transports are interchangeable the only thing that makes them this or that is the paint job and unit markings. but if you turned up at the tabletop with blue ultra troops etc but were playing raven guard for this game most people would not care. as long as you had the correct characters Or it was very very obvious which or your ultra chars were proxied for which raven guard, then you would be good to go in most pickup games at your FLGS.

However because all of them have characters (Heroes) unique to their faction, some people might get uppity, but those people tend to be TFG, and you might not wish to play them anyway.

Icefighter wrote:
Lets say I start with the units from the dark imperium pack, which seems to be only primaris guys. Can i play them as one of these factions (raven guard for example) straight away or do i have to buy anything else to make them to classify as raven guard? Like a certain hero.

Sry if I ask repeatable questions x)

\
absolutely, the primaris Marines are avaliable across all factions.

BTW as a general basis so that you know for the future, there are a number of varient marine armies, as you've no doubt already gathered. I wanna give you a quick run down as well as explain what is what for clarification. The Marine factions are divided among several codexes, these are, Codex Space Marines, which covers most marine chapters, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Black Templars, White Scars, Crimson Fists (who are mostly just Blue Imperial fists but a white dwarf issue awhile back had some rules put out for them). The upcoming July White Dwarf will also feature rules for the Blood Ravens Chapter for Codex Space Marines, if you got into 40k through Dawn of War that name'll be familer to you.

Generally speaking we just refer to these Marines as "Vanilla Marines" they have some chapter rules for them, but are all part of the same book.

Then you have Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves, these guys are mostly Space Marines but have their own unique elements and units that mean they get a codex of their own. they're found in Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels and Codex Space Wolves respectfully. Dark Angels and Blood Angels have sucessor chapters. basicly "child chapters" that can follow their rules, so if you like the lore but hate the paint job you're covered. Space Wolves are a special snowflake group that lack any sucessor chapters, so you're locked into one canon colour scheme. that said painting is all about individuality so florescant pink space wolves won't upset anyone.

After these you have a codex named Codex Death Watch. The Death watch are basicly a anti-alien special forces group made up of elite infantry from all the chapters. they have some neat stuff they can do with their infantry, but the trade off is they don't have many vehicles etc.

I tell you this BTW mostly so that you understand better some of the verttiable word salad we're tossing out. Codex this, codex that etc

Actually, the wolves have successors now. Guilliman spun at least a few wolf primaris chapters off in the Dark Imperium novel.


@Katherine- codex sure, but you don't actually need any of the special snowflake units. You can run normal terminators and bike squads in DA (with a few rules differences) with nary a proxy or conversion, same with BA if you skip sanguinary guard and death company, and even wolves. The latter just requires moving special and heavy weapon marines around, and leaving the additional devastator models with bolters behind.

Voss wrote:
Actually, the wolves have successors now. Guilliman spun at least a few wolf primaris chapters off in the Dark Imperium novel.

Maybe but the space wolves codex was quiet on them so I figured it would be easiest to simply not mention them.