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So in regular 40k there is the totally intuitive and not at all confusing system where a weapon's modifier is applied AFTER a characteristics modifier, meaning you can end up applying an additive modifier before a multiplicative one depending on the source (e.g. Blood Angel gets +1 Strength from their magic cup, and then applies a Power Fists x2 Strength to that modified Strength).

Am I reading it right that this is not the case in Apocalypse and you always multiply, then add regardless of source? I ask because there exist multiple x2 attack weapons and lots of +1 Attack Command Assets.

Thus, a 10 model Black Templars Terminator Squad (A:2) that uses Righteous Zeal (add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of BLACK TEMPLARS units in that Detachment whilst they make Fight actions) gets 5 attacks (Multiply then add) and not 6 (add the characteristic modifier first, then apply the weapon modifier)?

On an unrelated note are there any command assets or rules that improve the attacks characteristic but don't also lock the detachment into an Assault order or only apply when making Fight actions? I haven't seen any but if there are it would make x2 shooting weapons amusing.

Without the book at hand, one could argue this is a non-issue since +1 A and such modify the A value, whereas the weapon simply takes that value and uses it for another purpose which can then be modified again. So "this model having A attacks turns to 2xA hit rolls" avoids this problem, is probably what is intended and the world keeps spinning.

I am not near my book atm but i remember the always multiply then add thing. Which honestly is good. It means addative effects cant get more powerful from shennanigans.

It'll be very similar to the 8th ed rule for weapons that multiply attacks. First the Attack characteristic is finalized (multiply then add), then the weapon is applied on top (multiply then add).

For example, say that I play cards to double a unit's 2A and another to give it +2 attacks. Say that unit has a x2 attacks weapon and I play another card to give a weapon +1 attack (not sure if there is a card that does this). The unit would get an attack characteristic of (2x2)+2=6. Then the weapon adds on top for a total of (6x2)+1 = 13 attacks.

urzaplanewalker wrote:
It'll be very similar to the 8th ed rule for weapons that multiply attacks. First the Attack characteristic is finalized (multiply then add), then the weapon is applied on top (multiply then add).

For example, say that I play cards to double a unit's 2A and another to give it +2 attacks. Say that unit has a x2 attacks weapon and I play another card to give a weapon +1 attack (not sure if there is a card that does this). The unit would get an attack characteristic of (2x2)+2=6. Then the weapon adds on top for a total of (6x2)+1 = 13 attacks.

I don't know of an 8th edition rule equivalent, but this is actually how it appears to work.

A model's statline is an abstract quantity that weapons may or may not reference. A unit in apocalypse never "makes attacks with its bare hands" the way it does in 40k, or at least there is no assumed default close combat weapon with S: user AP:0 or whatever.

The weapon rolls a number of dice equal to, or a multiplication of, the current wielder's attack stat.

If the attack stat is raised, or lowered, then that's the number that you multiply off from, you don't make the modification after the fact.

A 1A model who stands in a +1A aura with a X2 attack weapon rolls 4 dice when he attacks with that weapon.

A 3A model who is critically damaged has its attacks stat halved (Rounding up, see Modifying Characteristics) to 2, and would attack with 4 dice when using a X2 weapon.

On further reading I actually now think that it does work the same way as 40k. You apply characteristic modifiers first and then weapon modifiers.

The entire rule for Apoc is as such:

Apocalypse Field Manual, Page 43 wrote:You may encounter abilities and rules that modify one of a unit's characteristics. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply multiplication or division to the characteristic before applying addition or subtraction. When halving a characteristic, round fractions up before applying other modifiers (if any) to the result.

Apocalypse Field Manual, Page 32 wrote:Each time a unit fights with a melee weapon, make a number of attacks for it equal to that weapon's Attacks characteristic

It makes a distinction between the weapon's Attacks characteristic and the units Attacks characteristic. Since the units attack Characteristic is being improved by +1, the weapon's attack characteristic will be based off that modified value before applying its own modifiers. So a unit with A:2 that gets a +1 to its Attack Characteristic, then attacks with a A:x3 melee weapon (e.g. 10 model Black Templar Reiver Squad) they get to make 9 attacks.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
On further reading I actually now think that it does work the same way as 40k. You apply characteristic modifiers first and then weapon modifiers.

The entire rule for Apoc is as such:

Apocalypse Field Manual, Page 43 wrote:You may encounter abilities and rules that modify one of a unit's characteristics. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply multiplication or division to the characteristic before applying addition or subtraction. When halving a characteristic, round fractions up before applying other modifiers (if any) to the result.

Apocalypse Field Manual, Page 32 wrote:Each time a unit fights with a melee weapon, make a number of attacks for it equal to that weapon's Attacks characteristic

It makes a distinction between the weapon's Attacks characteristic and the units Attacks characteristic. Since the units attack Characteristic is being improved by +1, the weapon's attack characteristic will be based off that modified value before applying its own modifiers. So a unit with A:2 that gets a +1 to its Attack Characteristic, then attacks with a A:x3 melee weapon (e.g. 10 model Black Templar Reiver Squad) they get to make 9 attacks.

Yep, this is what I was trying to convey. I can't think of a situation in which you would have the Page 43 rule take place (can't think of any card combos that multiply the base value of a model's attacks, rather than granting free actions) but you would go through and apply modifications to the base stat, then modifications based on the weapon.

Another related thing to watch out for is that many cards have "Excluding free actions" which means they can't be combo'd with cards that grant additional attacks.

Nice. So i guess BT actually became good in apoc? Lol

I found a relatively samey situation where the default order actually becomes important:

Death Guard's Blightbringer increases friendly units' Movement by 2" if they start their action near him, so making an Assault order that doubles their movement would mean they move 2x5"+2"=12" and not 14".