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So my wife is allowing me one last big expediture before we have our second kid (hes due the 12th). I'm buying my friend's massive army of Dark Eldar. I know that he has over 3500 points, mostly kabals and wych cults. I was thinking of taking the following list in our local tournaments. I'm not a diehard competitive player, but my local meta is fairly competitive. Only thing is there is no coven stuff, and I do not have the ability to further purchase any.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [57 PL, -1CP, 1,247pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute
. Kabal of the Black Heart

Prizes from the Dark City (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 93pts]: Blaster, Huskblade

Archon [4 PL, 89pts]: Blast Pistol, Huskblade, Labyrinthine Cunning, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Warlord (Archon)
. Writ of the Living Muse

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 117pts]
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 117pts]
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 117pts]
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges [8 PL, 140pts]
. Scourge
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 98pts]: Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Racks

Raider [5 PL, 98pts]: Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Racks

Raider [5 PL, 98pts]: Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Racks

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [40 PL, 750pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute
. Cult of the Red Grief

+ HQ +

Succubus [4 PL, 55pts]: Archite Glaive, Impaler
. The Blood Glaive

Succubus [4 PL, 54pts]: Hydra gauntlets

+ Troops +

Wyches [8 PL, 169pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 17x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Hydra gauntlets

Wyches [4 PL, 89pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 7x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Hydra gauntlets

Wyches [4 PL, 89pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 7x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Hydra gauntlets

+ Fast Attack +

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 90pts]: Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

Raider [5 PL, 90pts]: Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

++ Total: [97 PL, -1CP, 1,997pts] ++


The idea is I webway the large wych group and use them as a bomb after shoving the Reavers down my opponents throat turn one. The other wyches will tie up infantry and light vehicles while my kabalites zip around deleting units. One Archon will stay with the ravagers, the other will stay with a couple of squads of warriors.

1. I think Venoms are far better than Raiders but they aren't so bad that you don't have to take them. I also don't think your Archon can keep up with your raiders. That may or may not be a problem anyway due to shooting.

2. If you don't get first Turn how much can you hide in your local meta turn 1? If you can't hide your Ravagers I think they'll be the first to go if you can I think they'll be fine.

3. I think Disintegrator Cannons are better than Dark Lances, More dice rolls and more versatility.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
So my wife is allowing me one last big expediture before we have our second kid (hes due the 12th). I'm buying my friend's massive army of Dark Eldar. I know that he has over 3500 points, mostly kabals and wych cults. I was thinking of taking the following list in our local tournaments. I'm not a diehard competitive player, but my local meta is fairly competitive. Only thing is there is no coven stuff, and I do not have the ability to further purchase any.

I get that you can't purchase anything new - I do ask the general question; is this the entirety of the collection, or are there other options to play with if you're so inclined? Also, is your local meta married to a two detachment maximum or could you try three if so inclined? There are some alternate options available to you depending on some of these answers.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [57 PL, -1CP, 1,247pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute
. Kabal of the Black Heart

Prizes from the Dark City (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 93pts]: Blaster, Huskblade

Archon [4 PL, 89pts]: Blast Pistol, Huskblade, Labyrinthine Cunning, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Warlord (Archon)
. Writ of the Living Muse

At the core, both of these Archons are built well.
However, I do have a few thoughts to toss out to you. For starters, a Writ Archon's general purpose is to allow damage re-rolls. He is often paired with Ravagers because, well, it's awesome to wound with all your Ravager hits. However, a pistol and Huskblade Archon looks like someone you are expecting to get into the thick of combat with, so does that mean he's going up with your Warriors? And are they planning to get out of their Raiders so they can get re-rolls? Re-rolling for Raiders alone isn't worth abandoning your Ravagers.

I would, especially if you're still learning the army, tend to advocate that you switch the Writ to the other Archon, so your assaulty Archon isn't putting your Writ at risk.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 117pts]
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

This is not my personal favorite Warrior loadout, but it is assuredly a serviceable one. As a question about your detachments I do note that these guys would tend to benefit more from being Obsidian Rose than Black Heart (generally speaking the optimal situation with your loadout is your transports, Ravagers, and a single Archon are Black Heart and your Warriors are Obsidian Rose - which you could do depending on some of the questions I asked above - the point being that with the Dark Lance it is helpful to not have to move, and if you do have to move it is useful to be able to get the Blasters into play at 24" so you can protect them more). This also ties back somewhat to your Archon loadouts, because these guys will benefit from staying with the mobility of their transports over hopping out and footslogging much, yeah, they can do both, but mobility is nice when your optimal shooting range is actually 12-18" on a relatively fragile unit (T3, W1, and a 5+ sv with a 6+++, that's not shrugging off much counter fire).

I think the Phantasms are pretty meh since nothing else in your army combos with them, but at the end of the day you're only sinking 27 points into them, so it's not a total crime at 2000. That said, if you start to look at streamlining your army I think you'll find them easy to cut or trim back on (since at most you're looking at them generating 1 extra wound on a given squad once a turn, even light spam of them will probably accomplish that for you)

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Scourges [8 PL, 140pts]
. Scourge
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

This is a good loadout - I find haywire blasters are awfully useful in a meta that sees a lot of Knights and Infantry, and if you tend to have few Knights and lots of Infantry Shredders are also very good, and quite decent at smacking around light vehicles too, especially with all your Blasters. Scourges are a great workhorse unit.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Even if you don't own three of these I would tend to advocate kitbashing one of your Raiders to become a Ravager - they are our best value for heavy weapons being brought to the board, and are an excellent unit to field three of in a Kabal centric build.

I also strongly argue for the superiority of the Dissie compared to the Dark Lance. Yes, they wound lots of things (like Knights) on a 5+ instead of a 4+ and d6 damage is better looking than 2 flat.
However - the greater number of shots increases the potency of both the Writ and Archon's re-roll to hit bubbles.
Secondly - the Dissie is vastly superior versus infantry than a Lance, making it a better choice for a tournament as you'll be good against vehicle spam or infantry spam as opposed to only one.
Thirdly - against certain game effects, like Necrons' living metal, the Dissie is strongly advantageous for getting damage through (again, better at taking all comers)
Fourthly - when you actually map out the likely damage caused even to big things like Knights - the Dissie is mathematically more reliable at inflicting more damage. The Lance might do better, but also might do worse - and for competition reliability and easing the Bell Curve is superior.
Finally - it's cheaper, and as noted arguably better or equal.

That said, the dark lance is a great weapon, you can take them and it won't be sad, I'm just making the argument.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Raider [5 PL, 98pts]: Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Racks

I definitely question what you gain from the Splinter Racks really when fielding the squads you are - you're paying a lot to slightly improve the dakka of seven Warriors.
Already discussed the other options here.
I think the Raider is superior to the Venom in basically all ways that matter if you give it a Dissie - it's still fine with a Lance.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

Detachment Attribute
. Cult of the Red Grief

Cult of Strife will, mathematically, be of greater benefit to your Wyches as far as damage goes.
Also, since you're deepstriking your big squad (which means Turn 2 appearance) you're already getting the re-roll to Charge off your power from pain chart, making the inherent re-roll from Red Grief less valuable.
At that point you're taking it to get advance charges off from Wyches mounted in Raiders, who will already be aggressively fast (and, again, likely be charging on Turn 2 unless the enemy is inviting charges, in which case you'll get your re-roll anyway) and you're taking it for the Blood Glaive which, yeah, is awesome, but is it awesome to a degree of not getting +1 attack on all your Wyches?

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

Succubus [4 PL, 55pts]: Archite Glaive, Impaler
. The Blood Glaive

Succubus [4 PL, 54pts]: Hydra gauntlets

Buying an Impaler on a Blood Glaive Succubus feels like a weird waste of points. I fail to see the reasoning there outside of wanting it WYSIWIG to what your friend modeled?
The Blood Glaive is great, however to boost up your fellow Wyches I will note that their is a pretty solid combo you can build off a Tryptych Whip (taking Blood Dancer or Precision Strikes as a Warlord trait on her really combos up nicely) that is easily comparable when it comes to damage output.

The other Succubus is fine, Hydra Gauntlets are a solid weaponry choice for an affordable brawler.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

Wyches [8 PL, 169pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 17x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Hydra gauntlets

Wyches [4 PL, 89pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 7x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Hydra gauntlets

These are fine. I tend to like Agonisers in my squads, but it's not obligatory since you're relying on weight of attacks anyway.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

These are fine as distraction and about the only real argument you have for Red Grief presuming you want to try to get them stuck in on Turn 1. My one caveat to that is they're not likely to do much on their own as stands, and I think they can serve as decent throwaway distractions even with a different Obsession - especially if you took some of your other meh points and tossed them into a Blaster on these. Yeah, it would be just more throwaway points, but it would increase the odds your opponent would sweat them Turn 1 (and allow you to pew pew instead of try for the long ball assault as a way to generate aggro on them).

My thoughts, hope some of it helps,
Thor.

I agree with Thor on several points.

 Thor665 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Scourges [8 PL, 140pts]
. Scourge
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

 Thor665 wrote:

This is a good loadout - I find haywire blasters are awfully useful in a meta that sees a lot of Knights and Infantry, and if you tend to have few Knights and lots of Infantry Shredders are also very good, and quite decent at smacking around light vehicles too, especially with all your Blasters. Scourges are a great workhorse unit.

Haywire blasters, on scourges, FTW. They're near impossible to screen out from Deep Strike Reserve with 24" range. They're reasonable anti-I once the tank targets are gone. And with Fire and Fade, presumably in cover, they're elves with a 3+, 6++. And FnP!

When you switch your ravagers' DLs for DisCans** (which frees up a lot of points), you'll need a little more anti-tank smackage, and haywires fill that role.

Now, if you're really liking blasters, then I suggest Trueborn from the index, in a venom. I run 3 units (which would really scramble your list). They often destroy what the DisCans' Str 5 can't. D6 damage makes for a less consistent hit, usually a target without an invuln is going to take 7 to 11 wounds. 3 to 4 hits, 2 to 3 wound (tanks) and then you get the 7 to 11 wounds. Scourges with haywires then finish off Russes, Wave Serpents, etc. I acknowledge that Trueborn with blasters are very swingy against Imp. Knights.

 Thor665 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

I also strongly argue for the superiority of the Dissie compared to the Dark Lance. Yes, they wound lots of things (like Knights) on a 5+ instead of a 4+ and d6 damage is better looking than 2 flat.

Thor's right. DisCans are overall a better gun in the game. And I was a die-hard Dark Lance fan.

 Thor665 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

Detachment Attribute
. Cult of the Red Grief

Cult of Strife will, mathematically, be of greater benefit to your Wyches as far as damage goes.

Here, I disagree. Strife's extra attack on the charge is misplaced. If wyches hit a target too hard on the first go, they might well wipe out the target entirely, and then they're naked in the wind and die to shooting. Feathering the amount of wap is tricky with girls. Assaulting two units? Easy. Stick the shardNet girl on the one unit, and have the rest of the girls demolish the first, and then consolidate into the one the ShardNet wych is touching. But Strife then loses its extra swing.

I advocate for Cursed Blade. All girls get +1S. That alone ought to be convincing over the other cults. Morale is awesome. And occasionally, using HyperStym BackLash to go S6 on a unit of girls can make a difference. Or having the +1A girls go +2? That's 9 girls (I leave room in the raider for the succubus) swing 5 times each, maybe some agonizer and definietly the impaler and opponents grumble about their dudes gettin' taken out by "a buncha gurlz".

 Thor665 wrote:
Also, since you're deepstriking your big squad (which means Turn 2 appearance) you're already getting the re-roll to Charge off your power from pain chart, making the inherent re-roll from Red Grief less valuable.
At that point you're taking it to get advance charges off from Wyches mounted in Raiders, who will already be aggressively fast (and, again, likely be charging on Turn 2 unless the enemy is inviting charges, in which case you'll get your re-roll anyway) and you're taking it for the Blood Glaive which, yeah, is awesome, but is it awesome to a degree of not getting +1 attack on all your Wyches?

All this, yes, but with the argument for Cursed Blade on top of it.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

I have not used reavers, nor do I see them at tourneys (and I go to a lot of tourneys, like one a month, 5 GTs this year). *If* you are going to keep them, perhaps the 6 points spent to get them to crank out mortal wounds?

**As far as swapping the guns on the model for WYSIWYG, I have played them with DLs proxying as DisCans for a year, in RTTs and GTs. Not one guy has said boo about it.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Here, I disagree. Strife's extra attack on the charge is misplaced. If wyches hit a target too hard on the first go, they might well wipe out the target entirely, and then they're naked in the wind and die to shooting. Feathering the amount of wap is tricky with girls. Assaulting two units? Easy. Stick the shardNet girl on the one unit, and have the rest of the girls demolish the first, and then consolidate into the one the ShardNet wych is touching. But Strife then loses its extra swing.

I advocate for Cursed Blade. All girls get +1S. That alone ought to be convincing over the other cults. Morale is awesome. And occasionally, using HyperStym BackLash to go S6 on a unit of girls can make a difference. Or having the +1A girls go +2? That's 9 girls (I leave room in the raider for the succubus) swing 5 times each, maybe some agonizer and definietly the impaler and opponents grumble about their dudes gettin' taken out by "a buncha gurlz".

You are correct and wrong here.
+1 attack is better on the Wyches, as I said.
I will agree +1 Str, for doing less damage, can potentially make the impact of your charge less likely to wipe a squad, but would argue that whether you're swinging 40 times at Str 4 or 60 at Str 3 the way to control whether you stay in assault has a lot less to do with which profile you choose rather than what you assaulted, how you positioned, and where you declared your swings were going.

I don't see a lot of value in going Cursed Blade and an Agoniser, I'd take a power blade more likely for that one.

I do agree with you that Cursed Blade is an *excellent* selection for Wych blobs. I think he would do better taking them than Red Grief for certain.

 Brothererekose wrote:
**As far as swapping the guns on the model for WYSIWYG, I have played them with DLs proxying as DisCans for a year, in RTTs and GTs. Not one guy has said boo about it.

This is very true, but I always figured it was because most players couldn't tell the difference
I even use the old Raiders/Ravagers and *still* have to explain which is which to people after setting them up.
Though now that I mention it, I still have never been able to tell the Nid guns and biomorphs from each other without asking

 Thor665 wrote:
You are correct and wrong here.
+1 attack is better on the Wyches, as I said.
I will agree +1 Str, for doing less damage, can potentially make the impact of your charge less likely to wipe a squad, but would argue that whether you're swinging 40 times at Str 4 or 60 at Str 3 the way to control whether you stay in assault has a lot less to do with which profile you choose rather than what you assaulted, how you positioned, and where you declared your swings were going.

I have a longer response to this (and it kinda answers my question, but ... doesn't) in that other DE thread:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778936.page

So, continue the discussion there?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thor665 wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:
**As far as swapping the guns on the model for WYSIWYG, I have played them with DLs proxying as DisCans for a year, in RTTs and GTs. Not one guy has said boo about it.

This is very true, but I always figured it was because most players couldn't tell the difference
I even use the old Raiders/Ravagers and *still* have to explain which is which to people after setting them up.
Though now that I mention it, I still have never been able to tell the Nid guns and biomorphs from each other without asking

Too true!