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Hi Dakka,

Looking at getting back into 40k but I'd rather not dive in with a new army without playing a few games first. I have a few wraithguard units, a couple of wraithlords and a wraithseer left over from ye olden days so I thought I could get up to 2k by only adding in a couple of extra units.

But, is it a viable list? I think we've all fallen prey to only buying units you like then finding you lose every game. So, I'd like to know whether I'd have a chance of winning a few games with a wraith list - but no wraithknights. Not looking to win tournaments but would like a stab at playing in some.

I'm hoping that this is possible, even if its only to an intermediate level.

Cheers Dakka

Until they re-do the 2017 Codices (like Eldar's), the answer is nope.

I have to agree at this point, The Wraithseer is extremely lackluster with the current FW rules, Wraithlords are...OK....but in general medium walkers are really not awesome in 8th. Wraithknights are pretty universally terrible, Wraithblades aren't especially durable and don't kill ANYTHING, and wraithguard are decent.

But you've got nothing at all that will handle a horde, which is the current meta in 8th edition. a wraith army really wants to be up against like, all tanks, or a pure knight list. Nothing has the volume of attacks to thin out a horde.

the_scotsman wrote:
I have to agree at this point, The Wraithseer is extremely lackluster with the current FW rules, Wraithlords are...OK....but in general medium walkers are really not awesome in 8th. Wraithknights are pretty universally terrible, Wraithblades aren't especially durable and don't kill ANYTHING, and wraithguard are decent.

But you've got nothing at all that will handle a horde, which is the current meta in 8th edition. a wraith army really wants to be up against like, all tanks, or a pure knight list. Nothing has the volume of attacks to thin out a horde.

???

How can you say WLs are OK and wraithseers lacluster in the same sentence? The Seer currently outclasses the Lord in every possible way right now.

Unless facing the most hyper competitive list, your wraith army can compete. You will need serpents though to transport and Troops to get CPs.

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I have to agree at this point, The Wraithseer is extremely lackluster with the current FW rules, Wraithlords are...OK....but in general medium walkers are really not awesome in 8th. Wraithknights are pretty universally terrible, Wraithblades aren't especially durable and don't kill ANYTHING, and wraithguard are decent.

But you've got nothing at all that will handle a horde, which is the current meta in 8th edition. a wraith army really wants to be up against like, all tanks, or a pure knight list. Nothing has the volume of attacks to thin out a horde.

???

How can you say WLs are OK and wraithseers lacluster in the same sentence? The Seer currently outclasses the Lord in every possible way right now.

Unless facing the most hyper competitive list, your wraith army can compete. You will need serpents though to transport and Troops to get CPs.

Nah, I think Scotsman kind of explained why you can't compete with Wraiths, unless a "Wraith Army" means like 400 points of Wraithguard and then 1600 points of stuff that's actually good. Overall, you get okay defensive stats but no invulns, and pretty anemic offense out of Wraiths.

ugh, sounds like I might be up against it. Are d-scythes not decent against hordes? Also, not sure about how deep strike works - can practically anything deep strike now, meaning 20 boys behind your lines?

I love FW stuff - would a wraith list plus a few shadow spectres for support be any good? I was looking at that stratagem which would allow me to put wraithcannons behind my opponent's lines then a few shadow spectres maybe too which would allow my slower wraith units to advance. Pretty disappointing if that's no good...

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
ugh, sounds like I might be up against it. Are d-scythes not decent against hordes? Also, not sure about how deep strike works - can practically anything deep strike now, meaning 20 boys behind your lines?

I love FW stuff - would a wraith list plus a few shadow spectres for support be any good? I was looking at that stratagem which would allow me to put wraithcannons behind my opponent's lines then a few shadow spectres maybe too which would allow my slower wraith units to advance. Pretty disappointing if that's no good...

Hey budy welcome back. I had a very similar problem when I got back into he hobby. I effin love wraiths!

But in order to have a fair chance of winning, you will need a basic battalion for CP. (I recommend rangers)
At least 3 units of troops plus 2 HQ for buffs (Wraith seers are HQs and they are a very decent unit and can be given traits so makes it interesting). The rest of the army can be filled with wraiths if you wish.

As to the viability or not, it depends entirely on who you are up against and how min max their list is. If its a hard core tourney list I don't fancy your chances but a lot of wraiths running around can be a fun army and there are some interesting builds. Trouble is 90%people on dakka will yell at you saying 90% of units in the codex are trash etc. and that's just anecdote. A trash unit in their meta and play format might be a hidden gem for your playing environment. A big blob of wraith guard with D-cannons dropping out of DS Turn 2 can really hit hard! D-schythes can work but I'm not a fan as you have to put them in a wave serpent and that means only a unit of 6 and with their flamers you will be out of range if you DS. People swear by d-scythes but I'm personally not sold on them.


I always take at least one unit of wraith blades/guard and shuri cannon and sword Wraith Lords because I love the units. Shadow spectres are absolutely monstrous IMO. I have a squad myself I need to get around to building.

To Sumarise:

Can you play with a wraith centric heavy army? Absolutely

Are you going to win major tournaments with a wraith heavy army ? Probably not but stranger things have happened.

I would recommend getting familiar with the codex and just playing some games with what you have man and add to it.

The only decent wraith unit is Wraithguard with D-scythes.
This unit is quite killy and if it is transported in a Serpent, it can reach its target.

Wraiths are one of the few sets of units that do well as Ynnari. The Seer gets better powers out of the deal and you can use a Spiritseer to give units in a 6" bubble a 5++ you can also get some regeneration with Word of the Phoenix, which works well on these units.

It's not going to win tournaments, but at casual play, it's fun and strong enough. As you already have the models, why not give it a go?

You can do something like the following for 1500.

Battalion
Wraithseer, Walker of Many Paths, The Lost Shroud (This gives your seer a 5+ Feel No Pain and halves all incoming damage)
Yvraine
Spiritseer, Lord of Rebirth (This gives the Spiritseer a 5+ Feel no Pain)

Troops
3x Storm Guardians

Elites
10 Wraithblades (swords)
2x 5 Wraithguard (Scythes)

Dedicated Transports
2 Wave Serpents

Not sure what people are on about...but wraith lords are amazing. 95 points for 8 attacks that melt most things. Draws fire and is fast. Wraithblades/guards are a bit of a harder sell to be honest.

Bitharne wrote:
Not sure what people are on about...but wraith lords are amazing. 95 points for 8 attacks that melt most things. Draws fire and is fast. Wraithblades/guards are a bit of a harder sell to be honest.

I get my WLs killed due to the lack of an inulverable save. Every AP -2 and up gets pointed at it, and those wounds just drift away.

Yup no inv really hurts Wks.
They are relatively large models too so getting cover etc is difficult.

Wraithlord with two shuriken cannons are good, pretty quick because they can advance and nasty if they get to combat. Often they get targeted because they're an obvious threat leaving backfield units like triple prisms untouched.
Buffed wraithblades can be great, using the psytronome of iyanden, enhance psychic power and supreme distain gives a unit of 10 with swords 60 s6 -3ap D1 attacks which generate extra attacks on a five plus. Going with the wraith host formation can give them another attack too with the stratagem.
You can deepstrike them in and a wraithseer can give them a roll 3d6, discard the lowest for charge rolls.
Wraiths may not be optimal in the flyer dominant meta but they're far from shabby.

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I have to agree at this point, The Wraithseer is extremely lackluster with the current FW rules, Wraithlords are...OK....but in general medium walkers are really not awesome in 8th. Wraithknights are pretty universally terrible, Wraithblades aren't especially durable and don't kill ANYTHING, and wraithguard are decent.

But you've got nothing at all that will handle a horde, which is the current meta in 8th edition. a wraith army really wants to be up against like, all tanks, or a pure knight list. Nothing has the volume of attacks to thin out a horde.

???

How can you say WLs are OK and wraithseers lacluster in the same sentence? The Seer currently outclasses the Lord in every possible way right now.

Unless facing the most hyper competitive list, your wraith army can compete. You will need serpents though to transport and Troops to get CPs.

Looking at the stats, you're totally right - I must be out of date on some kind of change to the Wraithseer, or else maybe the people I play against them with are wasting their time with the D-cannon upgrade, which looks super not worth it.

Wraithseers are most definitely 100% better wraithlords right now, and actually look fairly solid.

All wraith lists struggle against anyone running a halfway decent army, I know becuase I've tried.

Wraithguard with cannons can be good on deepstrike, but you are going to need Guide and Doom for them and then you're still hoping for decent rolls on the damage because D6 is very swingy. A friend of mine got great result using a squad of 10 with D-Scythes, use the Vigilus stratagems to give them a 4++, Protect to make it a 2+/3++, fortune for the 5+ fnp if you want to go overboard on the survivability, the stratagem to auto advance 6" and then Quicken to move again (saddly you need to roll for advance again here now that they've changed the rules in the most recent FAQ). Potentially that gives you a 32" threat range on a unit with S10 flamers who have 2+/3++/5+++. Run them as Iyanden and have a Spiritseer with the Psytronome catch up to them on the next turn and they'll be pretty decent in combat as well. The problem here though is that its a 430pts unit that requires a significant investment in stratagems and psychic powers to make work.

Frankly I've found that your biggest problem is going to be a complete lack of board control and that yu are going to be badly out gunned pretty much everytime.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I have to agree at this point, The Wraithseer is extremely lackluster with the current FW rules, Wraithlords are...OK....but in general medium walkers are really not awesome in 8th. Wraithknights are pretty universally terrible, Wraithblades aren't especially durable and don't kill ANYTHING, and wraithguard are decent.

But you've got nothing at all that will handle a horde, which is the current meta in 8th edition. a wraith army really wants to be up against like, all tanks, or a pure knight list. Nothing has the volume of attacks to thin out a horde.

???

How can you say WLs are OK and wraithseers lacluster in the same sentence? The Seer currently outclasses the Lord in every possible way right now.

Unless facing the most hyper competitive list, your wraith army can compete. You will need serpents though to transport and Troops to get CPs.

Looking at the stats, you're totally right - I must be out of date on some kind of change to the Wraithseer, or else maybe the people I play against them with are wasting their time with the D-cannon upgrade, which looks super not worth it.

Wraithseers are most definitely 100% better wraithlords right now, and actually look fairly solid.

Yeah, if you run them without a gun then it's 100pts for a T8, S9, A4 monster that re-rolls 1's to wound against vehicles and has a 5++. Unfortunately it's psychic ability is worthless as it's the only psyker in the game without Smite and it's powers are pretty bad (WC8 for a 6" buble of -1Ld!), with no access to other disciplines. It's better as Ynnari though because you can give him the 5+++ relic that halfs all damage (really good on a character with 12W) and a Warlord trait that gives it more attacks. It's a shame that only characters seem to benefit going Ynnari with the better warlord traits and relics.

I'd say enliven is a great psychic power, 6 to cast and any lord, blade or guard gets an extra d6 to advance and charge, discarding the lowest. Makes deepstrike blades reasonably reliable to charge, especially with reroll charges or even a command reroll

I started to build a wraith based Eldar amy in sixth of seventh (?) edition when wraith troops were briefly an option via the Iyanden supplement. I'm still annoyed that they removed that. I don't really like any of the Eldar troops, and it is annoying that you need to bring three squads of them along with your glorious undead to be even remotely viable.

while a wraithhost is not great I have found the wraithseer with mark of the incomparable huinter and a D cannon is good. bonus if you give it a pheonix gem and run altioc for a chance to bounce back and less chance of being shot. when you opponent seens it can vaporize characters not needing lien of sight within 24".

I have 2 wraithlords converting up to seers (using the heads from the webway gate to differentiate them) and plan to use the wraithcannon on one, but may splash out for the D-cannon on the other, not sure. Wraithcannon is decent though as at least you can still advance and shoot. But with the drop in points and boost to T8 recently, it really is a great option.
Wraithblades with swords, the Vigilus strat, psytronome and +1 to hit psychic power (one of the cheaper to cast) will make that unit carve through hordes like butter (psytronome only one time of course)

Don't WraithSeers have 10+W? Meaning, if it's your Warlord, they can shoot your Warlord? I don't have the book in front of me.

Still, statistically stronger than a stock Wraithlord.

Bharring wrote:
Don't WraithSeers have 10+W? Meaning, if it's your Warlord, they can shoot your Warlord? I don't have the book in front of me.

Still, statistically stronger than a stock Wraithlord.

They do. As Ynnari though they can have a warlord trait even if they aren't your warlord with Exalted of Ynnead.

I'll Tell you after I try this derpy list next Weekend:



++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [85 PL, 1,634pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Iyanden: Stoic Endurance

+ HQ +

Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol
. Psytronome of Iyanden

+ Elites +

Wraithblades [20 PL, 405pts]: Ghostaxe and Forceshield, 9x Wraithblade

Wraithblades [20 PL, 450pts]: Ghostaxe and Forceshield, 10x Wraithblade

+ Heavy Support +

Wraithlord [8 PL, 125pts]: 2x Bright Lance, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult

Wraithlord [8 PL, 125pts]: 2x Bright Lance, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult

Wraithlord [8 PL, 127pts]: Flamer, Flamer, Ghostglaive, 2x Shuriken Cannon

Wraithlord [8 PL, 127pts]: Flamer, Flamer, Ghostglaive, 2x Shuriken Cannon

+ Flyer +

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: 5. Quicken/Restrain, Spirit Stones

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [23 PL, 355pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Iyanden: Stoic Endurance

+ HQ +

Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol

Wraithseer [10 PL, 145pts]: 4: Fate's Messenger, Craftworlds Warlord, D-cannon

Wraithseer [10 PL, 145pts]: D-cannon

++ Total: [108 PL, 1,989pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Bharring wrote:
Don't WraithSeers have 10+W? Meaning, if it's your Warlord, they can shoot your Warlord? I don't have the book in front of me.

Still, statistically stronger than a stock Wraithlord.

yes, but again D cannon does not require LOS so unless you are playing on planet bowling ball its pretty easy to keep him out of LOS to most things and still fire. I tend to run an avatar and a wraithseer in every eldar list I make. I do not tournament play them though, just fun games. my tournament army is orks.

I think it hinges on what is viable.

I personally like cheap wraithlords - either just with fists or with a sword. Mixed on the shuriken cannon (or any guns). The guns are probably worth it damage wise, but those points add up and at 85/95 points a Lord isn't that efficient to shoot at. If they die its not that many points. Similar story with Wraithseers.

I'm less sold on regular wraiths. I feel they get expensive fast - especially if you are bringing a wave serpent to ferry them around. If you don't they are glacial. A big blob of blades as a resilience play might be interesting in some scenarios/tournaments - but I struggle to see how they would ever kill enough stuff. Too slow, too anvil.

I guess at some level the sword and board Wraith Knight is just a worse Gallant - but to some extent it can do the same stuff on the table for about the same points. Viable in a top tier game? Probably not. On a slightly softer table? I think more people should give it a go.

The answer to why no WLs is probably somewhere in DE codex.

As for Wraith army, Spiritseer is good, Wraithblades with swords are good, and Wraithlords with just fists, flamers/catapults and shuriken cannon or two are good. Flamers are really helpful against scrubs trying to charge your WL and tie them down and degradation after they got cheaper as did WLs.

That's already a Wraith army there. Rest can fill the gaps and help with weaknesses of these units.

 Shadenuat wrote:
The answer to why no WLs is probably somewhere in DE codex.

I think this is a fear - but its not really... that obvious.
Take a stripped down Wraithlord at 85 points.

A venom shoots.
12 shots. 8 hits. 4 wounds, 1.333 go through. 8.5*1.333=11.33. 11.33/75=15.1%. Which is pretty bad. You can buff it up but its still going to be nothing to right home about.

Kabalites are better.
2*2/3*1/2*1/3*8.5/6=31%. Which is nice I guess - but its similar to what you would get versus non chaff infantry.

Obviously this gets worse if you tool your WL up - but you shouldn't be terrified just because your opponent has a few venoms.

I actually forgot about poison.

What I meant is that if you want to run some monsters, you can use DE ones.

I've had decent success running a combination of Wraiths and Guardians, with some tanks providing mobility and long-range firepower.

If you take a big unit of Wraithguard (any sort, really, but axes might be best because they have an innate invulnerable save) and pile buffs on them they become awfully difficult to kill. Send them up the middle to draw fire with Wraithlords in support and Guardians screening the flanks and rear. Have some mobile Wraith squads in the Webway or in Wave Serpents, and protect your psykers! Pretty much the only thing Wraiths have going for them over over Eldar units is that their high base stats mean they take to psychic buffs really well -- so keep those buffs around!

I don't think a pure Wraith army will be especially good, but they can definitely carry your army if you give them proper support.

Wraith units are neat, but only really viable outside of a tournament setting. There are some considerations.

1) In matched play, limited to three units of each type: 3x Wraithblades, 3x Wraithguard, 3x Wraithlord, 3x Wraithknight, 3x Wraithfighter, 3x Wraithseer. So generally speaking you're a bit limited on army composition.
2) While tough, they're pretty damn expensive. At 40-ish per model, Wraithguard are...painful to lose. One bad turn and you've lost 300-400 points.
3) While limited on numbers of units, Wave Serpents can only hold six Wraithguard per vehicle, so you're a bit limited there in size.
4) Wraithknights are just crap...and while Wraithseers got a little better, they're awful as psykers, so Spirtiseers need to carry the psychic load (and occasionally the wraithfighters)
5) You can deepstrike one unit...so make it count. For deepstrike I prefer using Wraithguard with the wraithcannon simply because they can shoot 12".
6) Sadly Wraithblades have received the most buffs, and benefits, namely from the Vigilus detachment - and I don't use them because I don't think they fit the lore.
7) Wraithguard with distortion scythes are best out of a Wave Serpent. Keep in mind they have assault mini-flamers, so they can move, advance and still shoot giving them a 14-20" radius around their Wave Serpent. Wraithguard do not benefit from Battle Focus so they suffer -1 if you try this with wraithcannons, and at 40 points a model you suffer exponentially when you miss with one.
8) Wraithlords are just "okay". Their main loss is having so many wounds that they degrade which oddly makes them a bit worse than a normal dreadnought. Being tough and being able to carry quite a few weapons can be good though.

I find it fun to play ghost armies, and with Ulthwe providing a 6+ FNP it becomes even more robust. But fast and flexible it is not, and you feel each casualty.

 Elbows wrote:
Wraith units are neat, but only really viable outside of a tournament setting. There are some considerations.

1) In matched play, limited to three units of each type: 3x Wraithblades, 3x Wraithguard, 3x Wraithlord, 3x Wraithknight, 3x Wraithfighter, 3x Wraithseer. So generally speaking you're a bit limited on army composition.
2) While tough, they're pretty damn expensive. At 40-ish per model, Wraithguard are...painful to lose. One bad turn and you've lost 300-400 points.
3) While limited on numbers of units, Wave Serpents can only hold six Wraithguard per vehicle, so you're a bit limited there in size.
4) Wraithknights are just crap...and while Wraithseers got a little better, they're awful as psykers, so Spirtiseers need to carry the psychic load (and occasionally the wraithfighters)
5) You can deepstrike one unit...so make it count. For deepstrike I prefer using Wraithguard with the wraithcannon simply because they can shoot 12".
6) Sadly Wraithblades have received the most buffs, and benefits, namely from the Vigilus detachment - and I don't use them because I don't think they fit the lore.
7) Wraithguard with distortion scythes are best out of a Wave Serpent. Keep in mind they have assault mini-flamers, so they can move, advance and still shoot giving them a 14-20" radius around their Wave Serpent. Wraithguard do not benefit from Battle Focus so they suffer -1 if you try this with wraithcannons, and at 40 points a model you suffer exponentially when you miss with one.
8) Wraithlords are just "okay". Their main loss is having so many wounds that they degrade which oddly makes them a bit worse than a normal dreadnought. Being tough and being able to carry quite a few weapons can be good though.

I find it fun to play ghost armies, and with Ulthwe providing a 6+ FNP it becomes even more robust. But fast and flexible it is not, and you feel each casualty.

#1 is irrelevant though as you will run out of points before you run out of choices. Also, don't forget hemlocks.
#2 is obviously offset by wave serpents even if just 5 plus character.
#8 is offset by Iyanden which is an almost auto take with this list (many would argue) but the psytronome is too good, especially in conjunction with Vigilus detachment.

You still need troops though, and large guardian blobs are great for that due to iyanden trait and need for anti-infantry firepower.