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So I friend of mine asked me about the Volley Fire ability the Cadre Fireblade have.

He linked a video that is stating that Volley fire only effect models within 6" of the fireblade (time 51.15). Showing that if your unit have models outside 6" of the fireblade they will not gain the effect.

So how is the ruling on this rule? Is the video correct?

Volley Fire Models in <SEPT> units within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, pulse carbines and pulse rifles when shooting at a target within half the weapon's range.

Tech wrote:
So I friend of mine asked me about the Volley Fire ability the Cadre Fireblade have.

He linked a video that is stating that Volley fire only effect models within 6" of the fireblade (time 51.15). Showing that if your unit have models outside 6" of the fireblade they will not gain the effect.

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPcbywExk4&fbclid=IwAR1fyAoXXqjkyiqn7OzM2VEYS5WgIbE95vQveqPTS6R_dwR5L4CIMAcfhKE

So how is the ruling on this rule? Is the video correct?

If one mode in the unit is within 6", the unit is within 6" and the entire unit benefits from Volley Fire.

 Kriswall wrote:

Tech wrote:
So I friend of mine asked me about the Volley Fire ability the Cadre Fireblade have.

He linked a video that is stating that Volley fire only effect models within 6" of the fireblade (time 51.15). Showing that if your unit have models outside 6" of the fireblade they will not gain the effect.

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPcbywExk4&fbclid=IwAR1fyAoXXqjkyiqn7OzM2VEYS5WgIbE95vQveqPTS6R_dwR5L4CIMAcfhKE

So how is the ruling on this rule? Is the video correct?

If one mode in the unit is within 6", the unit is within 6" and the entire unit benefits from Volley Fire.

That is not what the volley fire rule is saying.

p5freak is right. Because Volley Fire asks for "models" and not "units", only the physical models within 6" (any part of the base/hull of those models) benefit, not the whole unit.

I disagree that the sentence can only be parsed in that manner. Either interpretation can be gleaned, and I am more likely swayed toward the more generous interpretation. After all if we were to stay with a narrower definition, Rites of Battle may actually do nothing (Caveat here I am looking at the Dark Angel version it may be worded differently in the other books)

Rites; You can pre-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly Dark Angel units within 6" of this model.

Which is a shame, because units don't make hit rolls models do

Volley Fire Models in <SEPT> units within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, pulse carbines and pulse rifles when shooting at a target within half the weapon's range.

I've added bold to emphasis that it is models within units that are subject to the rule. Thus, only one model in the unit must be within 6" since you measure the distance to a between a model and a unit to the closes model in that unit.

 alextroy wrote:

Volley Fire Models in <SEPT> units within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, pulse carbines and pulse rifles when shooting at a target within half the weapon's range.

I've added bold to emphasis that it is models within units that are subject to the rule. Thus, only one model in the unit must be within 6" since you measure the distance to a between a model and a unit to the closes model in that unit.

But you are wrong. Because the subject of the sentence is not UNITS that are within 6" it's MODELS that are within 6".

Any MODEL that is a part of a friendly <Sept> unit within 6".

It's the model that has to be within 6" with the added adeundum that it must be part of a friendly Sept Unit. A Bork'an Model would not benefit from a T'au Fireblade even if they were within 6".

I have messed up the quoted rule a bit, people probably misread it because of my screwup. This looks better.

Volley Fire
Models in <SEPT> units within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, pulse carbines and pulse rifles when shooting at a target within half the weapon's range.

The wording can be interpreted either way. However, almost all 40k aura abilities affect the whole unit if a single model is within range (compared to AoS where a unit usually has to be 'wholly within' range). This makes it seem much more likely that the intent is for all models in the unit to benefit if at least one of them is within 6".

Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Why make the distinction and say "Models in <SEPT> units within 6"..." Why not just say <SEPT> models within 6"?

All models are in units.

It is a bit of strange wording and one that makes me think the whole unit is affected.

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt.

Only if you parse the sentence in a particular way, which suggests that the alternative way is correct.

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

This effects unit's it's worded oddly as units within 6 may fire an extra shot would be 11 shots for a 5 man squad instead of the way it's written being 15 shots.

If the rule states that models in the unit that are within 6" (models being the subject of the sentence), then only the models get the extra shot.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
If the rule states that models in the unit that are within 6" (models being the subject of the sentence), then only the models get the extra shot.

What the rule states is ambiguous due to poor wording.

 Bilge Rat wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt.

Only if you parse the sentence in a particular way, which suggests that the alternative way is correct.

Why write it differently if it's not supposed to be different? I was under the impression GW were flawless and could do no wrong?

From my reading, there's two ways Volley Fire can be parsed.

1) It applies on a model to model basis, with the "unit" portion of the rule merely clarifying that only the appropriate Sept can make use of the rule.

2) it applies to the entire unit, with the "model" portion of the rule merely clarifying that it only applies to models with the appropriate weaponry.

I play against two Tau players fairly regularly and we always go with the latter interpretation. I've never had a moment where I felt like it was "too powerful".

The sentence let's Sept models within an unit that is within 6" benefit.

There is actually no way to read the sentence to make it models within 6". It's an awkward sentence but clearly Sept models from units within 6" benefit.

The fact that it starts with models in the sentence doesn't change the fact that it clearly says units within x".

It definitely applies to all model in the unit if any model in that unit is within 6” (and matches Sept ).
In order to make ‘within 6”… ‘ apply to ‘Models’ rather than ‘Units’ there would need to be some separation between these two elements such as the addition of ‘and’ or ‘ , ‘ (e.g. Models in <SEPT> units and within 6" of any friendly…). As there is no such separation then the subject of ‘within 6” ‘ is the unit, not the model.

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Good thing the way you read rules isn’t the way I have to read rules. Since this rule can be read either way my entire units will always fire. You can split hairs all you want, won’t stop me.. ever

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Good thing the way you read rules isn’t the way I have to read rules. Since this rule can be read either way my entire units will always fire. You can split hairs all you want, won’t stop me.. ever

It's not splitting hairs. The ability very specifically works on a model by model basis. It's a very powerful ability so it's entirely possible this was fully intentional as a balancing mechanism.

 Stux wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Good thing the way you read rules isn’t the way I have to read rules. Since this rule can be read either way my entire units will always fire. You can split hairs all you want, won’t stop me.. ever

It's not splitting hairs. The ability very specifically works on a model by model basis. It's a very powerful ability so it's entirely possible this was fully intentional as a balancing mechanism.

It works for models in units that have a model within 6 inches of the cadre.
As I explained up thread it's because an additional attack per unit is very different from each model getting an additional attack. Hence why it's written the way it is.

 Stux wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Good thing the way you read rules isn’t the way I have to read rules. Since this rule can be read either way my entire units will always fire. You can split hairs all you want, won’t stop me.. ever

It's not splitting hairs. The ability very specifically works on a model by model basis. It's a very powerful ability so it's entirely possible this was fully intentional as a balancing mechanism.

The ability states models in a unit within 6" of (etc). So, even though it started with saying models, it's models within the unit that's within range, so if the unit's within range all the models within the unit are within range.

 doctortom wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Good thing the way you read rules isn’t the way I have to read rules. Since this rule can be read either way my entire units will always fire. You can split hairs all you want, won’t stop me.. ever

It's not splitting hairs. The ability very specifically works on a model by model basis. It's a very powerful ability so it's entirely possible this was fully intentional as a balancing mechanism.

The ability states models in a unit within 6" of (etc). So, even though it started with saying models, it's models within the unit that's within range, so if the unit's within range all the models within the unit are within range.

Hmm... On reflection you may have a point.

Apologies to pain4pleasure, this is more complex than it first looks.

 doctortom wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Almost all aura abilities effect units, this one doesnt. It only works for models within 6" of the cadre fireblade.

Good thing the way you read rules isn’t the way I have to read rules. Since this rule can be read either way my entire units will always fire. You can split hairs all you want, won’t stop me.. ever

It's not splitting hairs. The ability very specifically works on a model by model basis. It's a very powerful ability so it's entirely possible this was fully intentional as a balancing mechanism.

The ability states models in a unit within 6" of (etc). So, even though it started with saying models, it's models within the unit that's within range, so if the unit's within range all the models within the unit are within range.

Agreed. If all models of the unit are in range, all models from the entire unit get an additional shot.