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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/03 21:06:58
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Are drop pods doors considered hull. The FAQ says to measure all distances from any part of the model, but the rule book says you measure ranges to hull ? can you deny movement with the doors ?
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/03 21:11:20
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The doors are part of the drop pod. They would indeed deny movement.
From the new Codex: Space Marine FAQ:
Q: Which part of a Drop Pod should I measure distances from
and to, especially if the model has been assembled so its doors
can be opened or closed?
A: Measure all distances to and from any part of the
model, including its doors. If this model has been
assembled such that you can lower and raise its doors,
then when this model is first set up in the battlefield
choose whether the doors will be lowered or raised –
you cannot raise or lower the doors thereafter during
the battle..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/03 21:18:43
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It seems silly but i'll take it,,,
measurements from any part seems odd,
for example : If I model a giant antenna on to it ... contradicts the hull rule.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 05:01:48
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Type40 wrote:It seems silly but i'll take it,,,
measurements from any part seems odd,
for example : If I model a giant antenna on to it ... contradicts the hull rule.
A "giant antenna" is not Hull...
40k FAQ wrote:Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 05:48:50
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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LOS is from any part of the model, measurement is from the hull.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 07:36:21
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Norn Queen
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Ah, this old chestnut.
In short, define what the doors are/do before the game because GW refuse to do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 10:52:07
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
Somewhere around fenris
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BaconCatBug aka MR RAW. You are selfcontradicting as in they have defined droppod doors trice in 8th edition alone. As peaple do not agree with it but rules are rules, the doors are a part of the hull and in the last marine faq they even added that you need to define what doors are open and closed when it arrives.
Q: Which part of a Drop Pod should I measure distances from and to, especially if the model has been assembled so its doors can be opened or closed?
A: Measure all distances to and from any part of the model, including its doors. If this model has been assembled such that you can lower and raise its doors, then when this model is first set up in the battlefield choose whether the doors will be lowered or raised – you cannot raise or lower the doors thereafter during the battle.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/04 10:54:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 11:04:22
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Norn Queen
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GW literally tell you to decide on a case by case basis whether the doors are lowered or raised. That is the literal opposite of telling you what the doors do. If GW had said "Always consider the doors closed" that would be GW telling you how to deal with the doors.
Also, an FAQ is not rules (although GW tend to use them to ignore the rules). If GW wrote the rules properly they wouldn't need such an FAQ.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 11:10:53
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The faq literally gives you a rule to follow, so your statement is again, a nonsense.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 11:11:57
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Norn Queen
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nosferatu1001 wrote:The faq literally gives you a rule to follow, so your statement is again, a nonsense.
The FAQ tells you what to do in spite of a lack of clear rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 11:14:36
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It defines a rule
A rule is an in game instruction to follow
This is such an in game instruction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 12:15:29
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Stating that a ruling from GW isn’t a ruling is pretty silly, even for that guy. We’re told how to play Drop Pods at last.
Moving on...
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 12:49:44
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DeathReaper wrote: Type40 wrote:It seems silly but i'll take it,,,
measurements from any part seems odd,
for example : If I model a giant antenna on to it ... contradicts the hull rule.
A "giant antenna" is not Hull...
40k FAQ wrote:Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.
Except this FAQ says for drop pods in particular... "Measure all distances to and from any part of themodel, including its doors."
This directly contradicts the hull rule.... Therefor,,, giant antenna is a go.
I wouldn't play it like that, because I am not that a-hole ,,, but it is technically supported by raw now.
Not sure why they didn't just write "drop pod doors count as hull." that would have stopped potential cheese.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 13:42:42
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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So with a minimum of 3 DPs, you can now drop them in such a way that by opening the doors so they are 1" apart and in a straight line, you can make a ~3ft wall that has to be addressed. And with the "flower" open of each DP, it will be difficult for most FLY units to properly move over and stay outside 1". Heck, even 2 DPs dropping in like this is enough of a nuisance that units coming in T2 onward wouldn't be able to get very close. So basically, DPs just became VERY effective Screens for Marines. Good job GW! (no sarcasm there, I am legit happy for Marine players) -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/04 14:07:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 14:00:05
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought
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Well they have to recoup their points somehow!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 14:13:57
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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BCB: you have it Bass-Ackwards.
GW has been clear and consistent since they released drop pod models and rules: doors are part of the model for all rules purposes.
What they have not done is define whether drop pod doors should be open or closed; but, they have consistently defined whichever configuration(open or closed) the model is placed in/declared at deployment must remain consistent throughout the game being played.
They have been nothing but clear and consistent.
That said drop pods interacting with all the other rules have always been a mess(closed in previous editions meant that, by RAW, the gun never has LOS, the footprint of open doors is so large the pods often could not be placed with them open, etc)
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 14:19:18
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Kommissar Kel wrote:What they have not done is define whether drop pod doors should be open or closed; but, they have consistently defined whichever configuration(open or closed) the model is placed in/declared at deployment must remain consistent throughout the game being played.
They have been nothing but clear and consistent.
That said drop pods interacting with all the other rules have always been a mess(closed in previous editions meant that, by RAW, the gun never has LOS, the footprint of open doors is so large the pods often could not be placed with them open, etc)
Agreed. I think BCB wants GW to make a definitive "Must be open" or "Must be closed" statement, which will never happen as they will continue to leave that MODELING choice up to the players. And rightfully so. It make be a pain game-wise for a player to "abuse" that choice, but it is a legit choice and in MOST case comes from the original decision the player make when assembling the Pod (which is a pain too, in my experience)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 14:42:59
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Freaky Flayed One
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Does there need to be consistency with multiple pod doors in a game? Meaning, can you have some that drop open and others that drop closed based on need? Can you open say, half or just one of the doors if 9” away positioning becomes difficult?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 14:59:01
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BaconCatBug wrote:GW literally tell you to decide on a case by case basis whether the doors are lowered or raised. That is the literal opposite of telling you what the doors do. If GW had said "Always consider the doors closed" that would be GW telling you how to deal with the doors.
Also, an FAQ is not rules (although GW tend to use them to ignore the rules). If GW wrote the rules properly they wouldn't need such an FAQ.
The FAQ tells you to measure to any part of the model, including the doors. That means they're including the doors as part of the hull. Whether you model the drop pod with the doors up or the doors down is a different issue.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 15:00:39
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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MannyMcCoconut wrote:Does there need to be consistency with multiple pod doors in a game? Meaning, can you have some that drop open and others that drop closed based on need? Can you open say, half or just one of the doors if 9” away positioning becomes difficult?
No, there is no requirement for consistency between pods. The requirement is that once a pod is deployed and doors are positioned (whether open or closed) those doors STAY in that position for the remainder of the battle doctortom wrote: Whether you model the drop pod with the doors up or the doors down is a different issue.
Correct, and is an issue that only the player should ever decide. Modeling is part of this hobby and should always be left to the player who bought and is assembling their own model. -
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/04 15:03:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 15:02:20
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MannyMcCoconut wrote:Does there need to be consistency with multiple pod doors in a game? Meaning, can you have some that drop open and others that drop closed based on need? Can you open say, half or just one of the doors if 9” away positioning becomes difficult?
Their FAQ doesn't specify that all drop pods must be the same condition, so I'd say you can decide when you place them whether the doors on specific ones are open or closed. You should probably talk it over with your gaming group beforehand though to make sure they feel the same way, that way if there's a dispute you can decide how to handle it before starting the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 15:27:15
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It does say
" the doors will be lowered or raised"
Key being the plural of doors.
So it seems to me that all of the doors need to be lowered or all need to be raised. (or I guess at least more then one).
However, it does not say how much they have to be lowered. You could model them half opened, or ever so slightly opened or even add a little mechanism to lower them different amounts. Lowered does not mean completely opened. But i do think its either ALL lowered or None lowered.
Edit: changed the words opened to lowered. Opened and lowered are arguably different things.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/04 15:44:58
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 15:29:50
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Norn Queen
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Type40 wrote:It does say
" the door s will be lowered or raised"
Key being the plural of doors.
So it seems to me that all of the door s need to be lowered or all need to be raised. (or I guess at least more then one).
However, it does not say how much they have to be lowered. You could model them half opened, or ever so slightly opened or even add a little mechanism to lower them different amounts. Lowered does not mean completely opened. But i do think its either ALL opened or None opened.
Didn't you literally just argue the opposite when it came to fast rolling? I agree that "the doors" here means all or nothing, but why is it not the case for fast rolling too?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 15:37:00
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BaconCatBug wrote: Type40 wrote:It does say
" the door s will be lowered or raised"
Key being the plural of doors.
So it seems to me that all of the door s need to be lowered or all need to be raised. (or I guess at least more then one).
However, it does not say how much they have to be lowered. You could model them half opened, or ever so slightly opened or even add a little mechanism to lower them different amounts. Lowered does not mean completely opened. But i do think its either ALL opened or None opened.
Didn't you literally just argue the opposite when it came to fast rolling? I agree that "the doors" here means all or nothing, but why is it not the case for fast rolling too?
Because that's what it says BCB.
Doors are a specific thing, referring to only one possibility... the doors. The entire paragraph says DOORS.
Because reading the entire paragraph tells you how to do things.
In the other thread, the first sentence says "several" the next sentence says "ALL".. "ALL" refers to the entirity of the several attacks we have chose that meet the restrictions. "Doors" refers to the "Doors" which are referenced as "doors" in every instance of the paragraph.
I am arguing that we read the entirety of paragraphs and not pick and choose the parts that make the rule work the way we think it should. The context of previous sentences and the syntax of the things we read mater... we can't just pick and choose what we want .
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/04 15:38:03
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/04 15:39:50
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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Okay its simple. drop pod comes in, do the doors however you like, that's it can't touch it rest of the game.
The doors count as the model in whatever position you put them in.
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5500
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/05 11:27:03
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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DeathReaper wrote: Type40 wrote:It seems silly but i'll take it,,,
measurements from any part seems odd,
for example : If I model a giant antenna on to it ... contradicts the hull rule.
A "giant antenna" is not Hull...
40k FAQ wrote:Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.
the FAQ says any part of the model. The answer you’re looking for is the section entitled modeling for advantage. Automatically Appended Next Post: MannyMcCoconut wrote:Does there need to be consistency with multiple pod doors in a game? Meaning, can you have some that drop open and others that drop closed based on need? Can you open say, half or just one of the doors if 9” away positioning becomes difficult?
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You can have a Predator with Heavy Bolter Sponsons, you can have lascannon sponsons, you can have them with third party sponsors. Each model is different and gets to fulfill their rules individually. As long as they fulfill the rules.
As for if you can open some but not all.. as long as all the doors are open or closed and stay the same open or closed you’re good.
Is the door open? Closed? If you can answer yes, you’ve met the requirement for each door.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 11:31:14
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/05 11:32:25
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Breton wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Type40 wrote:It seems silly but i'll take it,,,
measurements from any part seems odd,
for example : If I model a giant antenna on to it ... contradicts the hull rule.
A "giant antenna" is not Hull...
40k FAQ wrote:Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.
the FAQ says any part of the model. The answer you’re looking for is the section entitled modeling for advantage.
A giant antenna that someone modeled onto it is definitely not part of the Drop Pod model.
The model comes in a kit, and adding extra pieces to try to game an advantage is of course modeling for advantage.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/05 13:49:25
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Galef wrote:So with a minimum of 3 DPs, you can now drop them in such a way that by opening the doors so they are 1" apart and in a straight line, you can make a ~3ft wall that has to be addressed.
And with the "flower" open of each DP, it will be difficult for most FLY units to properly move over and stay outside 1".
Heck, even 2 DPs dropping in like this is enough of a nuisance that units coming in T2 onward wouldn't be able to get very close.
So basically, DPs just became VERY effective Screens for Marines.
Good job GW! (no sarcasm there, I am legit happy for Marine players)
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Yesish...
The problem is you have to have enough room to place the model with the doors open so that it's not within 9" of any enemy models with the doors open, and not hitting impassable terrain. Also there as there is no permission to open or close doors and there is a requirement that all the doors must be open or closed(assuming this is onna single model) then you can't have a state of some doors open and some closed.
This will result in many instances of not being able to place a drop pod with open doors on a table. A single drop pod with down doors needs about 27" of space with no enemy models to drop, 18" if one side has no enemy models like a table edge.
In actual game play people trying to run multiple pods with open doors will run into games where they will not be able to place the pod and will lose it and any units inside past turn 3 more often than they will block out 3' of space.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 13:54:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/05 14:00:17
Subject: Drop pod doors ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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blaktoof wrote: Galef wrote:So with a minimum of 3 DPs, you can now drop them in such a way that by opening the doors so they are 1" apart and in a straight line, you can make a ~3ft wall that has to be addressed.
And with the "flower" open of each DP, it will be difficult for most FLY units to properly move over and stay outside 1".
Heck, even 2 DPs dropping in like this is enough of a nuisance that units coming in T2 onward wouldn't be able to get very close.
So basically, DPs just became VERY effective Screens for Marines.
Good job GW! (no sarcasm there, I am legit happy for Marine players)
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Yesish...
The problem is you have to have enough room to place the model with the doors open so that it's not within 9" of any enemy models with the doors open, and not hitting impassable terrain. Also there as there is no permission to open or close doors and there is a requirement that all the doors must be open or closed(assuming this is onna single model) then you can't have a state of some doors open and some closed.
This will result in many instances of not being able to place a drop pod with open doors on a table. A single drop pod with down doors needs about 27" of space with no enemy models to drop, 18" if one side has no enemy models like a table edge.
In actual game play people trying to run multiple pods with open doors will run into games where they will not be able to place the pod and will lose it and any units inside past turn 3 more often than they will block out 3' of space.
The wording in the FAQ is "lowered" not "opened."
It seems to me that it would be perfectly fine to open the doors and lean them on non-impassable terrain. They don't have to be fully opened, just "lowered."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 14:00:32
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/05 16:10:35
Subject: Re:Drop pod doors ?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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It says doors, not door. Either all doors are lowered, or all are raised. You cant choose for each door. Its all down, or all up.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 16:10:45
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