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2017/04/06 01:38:01
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Just pointing out that chinese people usually don't differentiate between "Chopstick" and "a pair of chopsticks". In fact we never refer to "a single chopstick" (unless one goes missing), as when you ask for "a chopstick", it means "give me pair" to the chinese person. If you tried asking for a plural in chinese, they will give you four or more sticks.
Because only a weirdo uses only one of chopstick. And you're a bigger weirdo for owning a set that has an odd number.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/06 01:38:49
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
I refer to my chopsticks argument, they are clearly 2 of them but are absolutely dependent on each other.
When chopsticks are used together, do they "count as one chopstick" or are chopsticks used together to some purpose (such as eating)?
When not used together are they an eating utensil or just sticks? When do they actually become an eating utensil? One chopstick is not an eating utensil. But two, when used together, is an eating utensil.
Kinda how the Sword of the Emperor is absolutely nothing until it is used together with the Hand of Dominion. Only then, when both are used together, does it actually become something other than absolutely nothing.
But then again, that is strictly based upon the RAI of what "used together" is interpreted to be. You use one RAI and others use another.
2017/04/06 01:54:05
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
I refer to my chopsticks argument, they are clearly 2 of them but are absolutely dependent on each other.
When chopsticks are used together, do they "count as one chopstick" or are chopsticks used together to some purpose (such as eating)?
When not used together are they an eating utensil or just sticks? When do they actually become an eating utensil? One chopstick is not an eating utensil. But two, when used together, is an eating utensil.
You might want to check the dictionary on that one. A chopstick is an eating utensil. Chopsticks are eating utensils.
Spoiler:
chopstick - each of a pair of small, thin, tapered sticks of wood, ivory, or plastic, held together in one hand and used as eating utensils
Summary of argument . . .
Spoiler:
The rules refer to "the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion" in the plural separably as "these weapons". Plural.
"Used together" does not mean that the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion count as a single weapon.
They are called out as "these weapons" and when they are used together they are still considered weapons and not as a single weapon. No rule designates them as counting as a single weapon so they remain two weapons.
"Used together" means simply that they are used at the same time in combat.
The profiles reference "this weapon" and so must reference the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion separably since the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion collectively are referred to as 'weapons' and as 'relics' and never as weapon or relic.
The rule statement refers to "these weapons". The BRB tells us "every weapon has a profile". The rule statement provides us with an unnamed profile. It is perfectly allowable in the rules to apply a single profile to more than one weapon. The only way to resolve the situation is to apply the unnamed profile such that "every weapon has a profile" for "these weapons".
Moreover, the Hand is explicitly discussed as being separably a 'weapon' and able to be used as both a melee and as a ranged weapon.
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Because the Hand of Dominion is itself a melee weapon, this proves that the melee profile on Robute's datasheet was applied individually to the Hand itself, and it disproves any argument that there is somehow a 'combined weapon profile'.
If there was some 'combined weapon' then the Hand of Dominion could not itself be a melee weapon. The melee profile provided would have been used to give the combined weapon the melee type and not the Hand of Dominion.
Since the Hand is definitively a melee weapon, this means that the melee profile on Robute's datasheet has been separably applied to both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion.
This in turn means that both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion are melee weapons.
This in turn means that we satisfy the rule that grants an a model an additional attack for having two or more melee weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/06 02:02:37
2017/04/06 02:07:08
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
I refer to my chopsticks argument, they are clearly 2 of them but are absolutely dependent on each other.
When chopsticks are used together, do they "count as one chopstick" or are chopsticks used together to some purpose (such as eating)?
When not used together are they an eating utensil or just sticks? When do they actually become an eating utensil? One chopstick is not an eating utensil. But two, when used together, is an eating utensil.
Kinda how the Sword of the Emperor is absolutely nothing until it is used together with the Hand of Dominion. Only then, when both are used together, does it actually become something other than absolutely nothing.
But then again, that is strictly based upon the RAI of what "used together" is interpreted to be. You use one RAI and others use another.
If all we have is RAI interpretations of what "used together" means then none of them make the cut for a RAW interpretation.
Summary of argument . . .
Spoiler:
The rules refer to "the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion" in the plural separably as "these weapons". Plural.
"Used together" does not mean that the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion count as a single weapon.
They are called out as "these weapons" and when they are used together they are still considered weapons and not as a single weapon. No rule designates them as counting as a single weapon so they remain two weapons.
"Used together" means simply that they are used at the same time in combat.
The profiles reference "this weapon" and so must reference the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion separably since the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion collectively are referred to as 'weapons' and as 'relics' and never as weapon or relic.
The rule statement refers to "these weapons". The BRB tells us "every weapon has a profile". The rule statement provides us with an unnamed profile. It is perfectly allowable in the rules to apply a single profile to more than one weapon. The only way to resolve the situation is to apply the unnamed profile such that "every weapon has a profile" for "these weapons".
Moreover, the Hand is explicitly discussed as being separably a 'weapon' and able to be used as both a melee and as a ranged weapon.
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Because the Hand of Dominion is itself a melee weapon, this proves that the melee profile on Robute's datasheet was applied individually to the Hand itself, and it disproves any argument that there is somehow a 'combined weapon profile'.
If there was some 'combined weapon' then the Hand of Dominion could not itself be a melee weapon. The melee profile provided would have been used to give the combined weapon the melee type and not the Hand of Dominion.
Since the Hand is definitively a melee weapon, this means that the melee profile on Robute's datasheet has been separably applied to both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion.
This in turn means that both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion are melee weapons.
This in turn means that we satisfy the rule that grants an a model an additional attack for having two or more melee weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Page 7 BRB - Warriors tend to band TOGETHER... and form a unit.
Here we have a stellar example of a plural, combining into a single unit.
THESE WEAPONS "plural" TOGETHER and use a profile.
Sigh.
Precedence requires that the rule writer has used the term in an identical or near identical situation , , , not in a wildly different situation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/06 02:49:15
2017/04/06 02:55:15
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
I got a few Mod Alerts on this thread, and I'm not spending the time to sort this out.
What I am seeing is a lot of back and forth sniping, repetition of statements, and what seems to be people talking past each other (so, typical YMDC "thread is done" speech). Since this doesn't seem to be going anywhere, I'm locking the thread.
And MattKing's comment of using this as a warning to new Dakkanaughts is pretty darned funny.
