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2017/03/28 16:55:33
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Bobby G's rules supersede that by saying they are one weapon RAW and use the same profile at the same time. Where a codex and the rulebook conflict, the codex takes precedence.
Rulebook says every melee weapon has a profile Bobby G's rules says his melee weapons are 1 combined profile
Thus RAW Bobby G has 1 weapon.
Point out in the rules where the weapons are stated as "counting as one weapon"
1 profile does not mean "count as one weapon". Have I overlooked that in the BRB somewhere. Kindly point out that rule to me.
Uh how many weapons is a Lascannon?
Lascannons also don't say there are two weapons present in their rules text.
What about a twin linked one?
Aha!
In all seriousness though, I think twin-linked weapons only talk about being two in the italicized fluffy part, not the plain text ruley part. Could be wrong though.
Nah it's in the fluffy part, I mean someone could maybe argue for Tau maybe for crisis suits... I mean it won't really get anywhere but that doesn't stop some people.
But this whole argument comes across a bit absurd. I'd play it as if he had two weapons, just without the bonus attack. I really think they should have just given the fist its own profile and kept the bonus attack in mind rather than what seems like this run around to try to get a strong weapon but then try to give it the drawback of it not granting a bonus attack (in a pretty stupid way too). I mean if the fist had its own profile as well he wouldn't be completely locked in combat with the Avatar of Khaine forever due to soulblaze and Bobby G being fearless prevents him from escaping with "our weapons are useles". Not to mention being a mc hinders him further with this as you can't attach a character to him with hit and run to try to escape it. It's somewhat ironic given how the Avatar was the punching bag of the marines for a bit, but Bobby G's rules probably show GW's failure to pay attention to existing rules and mechanics quite well.
As for him being disarmed, wouldn't that mean he'd have no melee weapon profiles and thus get a normal close combat weapon?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/28 16:58:29
Audustum wrote: Okay, I think everyone getting caught up on 1 profile is missing a bit of the point. RAW doesn't talk about profiles and doesn't care about them for purposes of +1A (as quoted in this thread).
Now, let's look at RG's actual rules:
These weapons are used together, using the profile below.
This doesn't actually answer our question one way or the other. I 'use two swords together' if I am dual-wielding but I also 'use two swords together' if I merged them into sword-chucks (yo).
The only other part of the profile is the gun:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Notice here the Hand receives permission to be used both as ranged and melee weapon in the same turn, but this permission is independent of any permission given to the sword. The Hand is treated as an entirely separate item.
You could infer from that then that the Primarch has two weapons that each use the melee profile. This supports Col, but it's a RAI argument.
RAW, the language of "use together" is completely ambiguous.
Except rules dispute this.
Every weapon has a profile
If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons
Since every weapon has a profile, you need to show the second profile for him claim a bonus attack.
Even the special rules refer to the combined weapon as a single weapon. "Any attacks with this weapon...", otherwise it would say with "these" weapons.
The singular actually helps Col's point, which is that each weapon uses that profile on its own as well as together. Thus, if you attack with either "this weapon" will do X. There's no rule violation here, RAW.
It doesn't help Col's point, it simply doesn't go against it.
Bobby G's rules supersede that by saying they are one weapon RAW and use the same profile at the same time. Where a codex and the rulebook conflict, the codex takes precedence.
Rulebook says every melee weapon has a profile
Bobby G's rules says his melee weapons are 1 combined profile
Thus RAW Bobby G has 1 weapon.
Point out in the rules where the weapons are stated as "counting as one weapon"
1 profile does not mean "count as one weapon". Have I overlooked that in the BRB somewhere. Kindly point out that rule to me.
Uh how many weapons is a Lascannon?
Lascannons also don't say there are two weapons present in their rules text.
What about a twin linked one?
Aha!
In all seriousness though, I think twin-linked weapons only talk about being two in the italicized fluffy part, not the plain text ruley part. Could be wrong though.
Happyjew wrote: Question for you col_impact. I (foolishly) charge Roboute with Jain Zar. She disarms him.
1. Does Roboute "lose" both sword and fist, or just one?
2. If he only loses 1, what profile do you use for the other?
3. Where did you find the profile for your answer on #2?
Simple. No where in Robute's rules does it say that his weapons count as a single weapon.
Jain Zar disarms only a weapon, not weapons, so just one weapon would be lost by Robute.
Emperor's Sword has the profile listed on Robute's Army List Entry. Hand of Dominion has the profile listed on Robute's Army List Entry.
But only when used together do they have a profile at all. RAW. So if you try to use one over the other, BAM, no profile exists. Meaning you can't use one and claim an extra attack from the existence of the other. RAW.
Go back to one of my posts. 'Use together' can just as easily mean dual-wielding as 'like one weapon'.
"Like one weapon" as in "using these together counts as one weapon." This furthers the point that the combined weapons have 1 profile and count as one weapon.
It helps him because it's some evidence that each weapon, individually, has that profile. Hence, 'this weapon'.
I don't see where it says "like one weapon" in the rules portion of the Primarch's rules. Can you give the language around where you're seeing that?
2017/03/28 16:57:59
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
But only when used together do they have a profile at all. RAW. So if you try to use one over the other, BAM, no profile exists.
No where in the rules does it say any of this. You are making this up.
There is a listing of weapons. There is a listing of a profile. Each weapon references that profile. No where does it say that they count together as a single weapon using that profile.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/28 16:58:09
2017/03/28 16:58:44
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Bobby G's rules supersede that by saying they are one weapon RAW and use the same profile at the same time. Where a codex and the rulebook conflict, the codex takes precedence.
Rulebook says every melee weapon has a profile
Bobby G's rules says his melee weapons are 1 combined profile
Thus RAW Bobby G has 1 weapon.
Point out in the rules where the weapons are stated as "counting as one weapon"
1 profile does not mean "count as one weapon". Have I overlooked that in the BRB somewhere. Kindly point out that rule to me.
Uh how many weapons is a Lascannon?
Lascannons also don't say there are two weapons present in their rules text.
What about a twin linked one?
Aha!
In all seriousness though, I think twin-linked weapons only talk about being two in the italicized fluffy part, not the plain text ruley part. Could be wrong though.
Nah it's in the fluffy part, I mean someone could maybe argue for Tau maybe for crisis suits... I mean it won't really get anywhere but that doesn't stop some people.
But this whole argument comes across a bit absurd. I'd play it as if he had two weapons, just without the bonus attack. I really think they should have just given the fist its own profile and kept the bonus attack in mind rather than what seems like this run around to try to get a strong weapon but then try to give it the drawback of it not granting a bonus attack (in a pretty stupid way too).
I mean if the fist had its own profile as well he wouldn't be completely locked in combat with the Avatar of Khaine forever due to soulblaze and Bobby G being fearless prevents him from escaping with "our weapons are useles". Not to mention being a mc hinders him further with this as you can't attach a character to him with hit and run to try to escape it. It's somewhat ironic given how the Avatar was the punching bag of the marines for a bit, but Bobby G's rules probably show GW's failure to pay attention to existing rules and mechanics quite well.
I agree to a large extent. They also could've just added "Two-Handed" to the profile. I'd say RAI he's not supposed to +1A and that's how I'd play it...it's an interesting point for RAW though.
Course, we already knew they wern't paying attention because we can also turn our Primarch into a Super-Heavy Walker. Then at least he can try to Stomp an avatar!
2017/03/28 17:00:45
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Bobby G's rules supersede that by saying they are one weapon RAW and use the same profile at the same time. Where a codex and the rulebook conflict, the codex takes precedence.
Rulebook says every melee weapon has a profile
Bobby G's rules says his melee weapons are 1 combined profile
Thus RAW Bobby G has 1 weapon.
Point out in the rules where the weapons are stated as "counting as one weapon"
1 profile does not mean "count as one weapon". Have I overlooked that in the BRB somewhere. Kindly point out that rule to me.
Uh how many weapons is a Lascannon?
Lascannons also don't say there are two weapons present in their rules text.
What about a twin linked one?
Aha!
In all seriousness though, I think twin-linked weapons only talk about being two in the italicized fluffy part, not the plain text ruley part. Could be wrong though.
Nah it's in the fluffy part, I mean someone could maybe argue for Tau maybe for crisis suits... I mean it won't really get anywhere but that doesn't stop some people.
But this whole argument comes across a bit absurd. I'd play it as if he had two weapons, just without the bonus attack. I really think they should have just given the fist its own profile and kept the bonus attack in mind rather than what seems like this run around to try to get a strong weapon but then try to give it the drawback of it not granting a bonus attack (in a pretty stupid way too).
I mean if the fist had its own profile as well he wouldn't be completely locked in combat with the Avatar of Khaine forever due to soulblaze and Bobby G being fearless prevents him from escaping with "our weapons are useles". Not to mention being a mc hinders him further with this as you can't attach a character to him with hit and run to try to escape it. It's somewhat ironic given how the Avatar was the punching bag of the marines for a bit, but Bobby G's rules probably show GW's failure to pay attention to existing rules and mechanics quite well.
I agree to a large extent. They also could've just added "Two-Handed" to the profile. I'd say RAI he's not supposed to +1A and that's how I'd play it...it's an interesting point for RAW though.
Course, we already knew they wern't paying attention because we can also turn our Primarch into a Super-Heavy Walker. Then at least he can try to Stomp an avatar!
Oh I forgot about it, I guess it's kind of funny that the only away around being locked with the Avatar is "the rules just break here keep playing".
Bobby G's rules supersede that by saying they are one weapon RAW and use the same profile at the same time. Where a codex and the rulebook conflict, the codex takes precedence.
Rulebook says every melee weapon has a profile
Bobby G's rules says his melee weapons are 1 combined profile
Thus RAW Bobby G has 1 weapon.
Point out in the rules where the weapons are stated as "counting as one weapon"
1 profile does not mean "count as one weapon". Have I overlooked that in the BRB somewhere. Kindly point out that rule to me.
Uh how many weapons is a Lascannon?
Lascannons also don't say there are two weapons present in their rules text.
What about a twin linked one?
Aha!
In all seriousness though, I think twin-linked weapons only talk about being two in the italicized fluffy part, not the plain text ruley part. Could be wrong though.
Nah it's in the fluffy part, I mean someone could maybe argue for Tau maybe for crisis suits... I mean it won't really get anywhere but that doesn't stop some people.
But this whole argument comes across a bit absurd. I'd play it as if he had two weapons, just without the bonus attack. I really think they should have just given the fist its own profile and kept the bonus attack in mind rather than what seems like this run around to try to get a strong weapon but then try to give it the drawback of it not granting a bonus attack (in a pretty stupid way too).
I mean if the fist had its own profile as well he wouldn't be completely locked in combat with the Avatar of Khaine forever due to soulblaze and Bobby G being fearless prevents him from escaping with "our weapons are useles". Not to mention being a mc hinders him further with this as you can't attach a character to him with hit and run to try to escape it. It's somewhat ironic given how the Avatar was the punching bag of the marines for a bit, but Bobby G's rules probably show GW's failure to pay attention to existing rules and mechanics quite well.
I agree to a large extent. They also could've just added "Two-Handed" to the profile. I'd say RAI he's not supposed to +1A and that's how I'd play it...it's an interesting point for RAW though.
Course, we already knew they wern't paying attention because we can also turn our Primarch into a Super-Heavy Walker. Then at least he can try to Stomp an avatar!
Oh I forgot about it, I guess it's kind of funny that the only away around being locked with the Avatar is "the rules just break here keep playing".
The Avatar finally fits his lore. An engine of destruction that can only be matched by warping reality.
2017/03/28 17:05:07
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Bobby G's rules supersede that by saying they are one weapon RAW and use the same profile at the same time. Where a codex and the rulebook conflict, the codex takes precedence.
Rulebook says every melee weapon has a profile
Bobby G's rules says his melee weapons are 1 combined profile
Thus RAW Bobby G has 1 weapon.
Point out in the rules where the weapons are stated as "counting as one weapon"
1 profile does not mean "count as one weapon". Have I overlooked that in the BRB somewhere. Kindly point out that rule to me.
Uh how many weapons is a Lascannon?
Lascannons also don't say there are two weapons present in their rules text.
What about a twin linked one?
Aha!
In all seriousness though, I think twin-linked weapons only talk about being two in the italicized fluffy part, not the plain text ruley part. Could be wrong though.
Nah it's in the fluffy part, I mean someone could maybe argue for Tau maybe for crisis suits... I mean it won't really get anywhere but that doesn't stop some people.
But this whole argument comes across a bit absurd. I'd play it as if he had two weapons, just without the bonus attack. I really think they should have just given the fist its own profile and kept the bonus attack in mind rather than what seems like this run around to try to get a strong weapon but then try to give it the drawback of it not granting a bonus attack (in a pretty stupid way too).
I mean if the fist had its own profile as well he wouldn't be completely locked in combat with the Avatar of Khaine forever due to soulblaze and Bobby G being fearless prevents him from escaping with "our weapons are useles". Not to mention being a mc hinders him further with this as you can't attach a character to him with hit and run to try to escape it. It's somewhat ironic given how the Avatar was the punching bag of the marines for a bit, but Bobby G's rules probably show GW's failure to pay attention to existing rules and mechanics quite well.
I agree to a large extent. They also could've just added "Two-Handed" to the profile. I'd say RAI he's not supposed to +1A and that's how I'd play it...it's an interesting point for RAW though.
Course, we already knew they wern't paying attention because we can also turn our Primarch into a Super-Heavy Walker. Then at least he can try to Stomp an avatar!
Oh I forgot about it, I guess it's kind of funny that the only away around being locked with the Avatar is "the rules just break here keep playing".
The Avatar finally fits his lore. An engine of destruction that can only be matched by warping reality.
Honestly I'd just like the Imperium player to just charge calgar into the fight at that point so he can show Bobby G how it's done.
Jackal wrote: Each weapon does not reference that profile though.
They only do so when used together, as his weapon rules state.
So even if we did count it as 2 weapons, jain zar could disarm him of 1 and he couldn't use the profile, as it needs both weapons to be used.
Each weapon does reference the profile. We are told that they are used together but not that they are used together as a single weapon. We are also not told that they only reference the profile when they are used together.
When Jain Zar disarms she doesn't erase a profile from the Army List Entry so the profile is still there for either weapon to reference.
2017/03/28 17:11:33
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
The weapons are used together with the following profile.
Note singular on the profile wording, showing it has 1 profile.
Please also note it says used together.
Meaning without 1 of them you cannot use it atall.
Is something requires bot A and B to work, removing either would prevent this.
It lists him as having the sword and gauntlet, fine.
It then gives a combined profile for them.
Something cannot be a combined profile if it's a singular weapon, that part is common sense.
Can you show me where it states each weapon uses the following profile please?
Or where it states he may use the sword or the fist separately?
col_impact wrote: There is no rule telling us that when they are used together we only have a single weapon with the value of "Melee"
Psst...
I have the actual rules too that were included with the model. I know this image is cut off, but it does say used together. That means, yes, there is a rulling telling us what they are when used together, and that it has a single value of Melee.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/28 17:12:14
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
2017/03/28 17:14:55
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
More than that, he has 6 freaking attacks base! Do you NEED to give him one more? Is 6 attacks, for 3 hits and 1 D strength hit on average not enough for you?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2017/03/28 17:18:26
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
JNAProductions wrote: More than that, he has 6 freaking attacks base! Do you NEED to give him one more? Is 6 attacks, for 3 hits and 1 D strength hit on average not enough for you?
Power level has no place in a RAW discussion.
If power level is an issue people vote on it at the ITC and at that point it doesn't matter at all what the rules say.
In other words, direct this comment at Frontline Gaming but not at YMDC.
2017/03/28 17:20:18
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
JNAProductions wrote: More than that, he has 6 freaking attacks base! Do you NEED to give him one more? Is 6 attacks, for 3 hits and 1 D strength hit on average not enough for you?
Power level has no place in a RAW discussion.
If power level is an issue people vote on it at the ITC and at that point it doesn't matter at all what the rules say.
In other words, direct this comment at Frontline Gaming but not at YMDC.
Yeah, true. Except the RAW is clear that he has only one weapon-there is one melee profile listed, and one ranged.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2017/03/28 17:27:09
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Jackal wrote: The weapons are used together with the following profile.
Note singular on the profile wording, showing it has 1 profile.
Please also note it says used together.
Meaning without 1 of them you cannot use it atall.
Is something requires bot A and B to work, removing either would prevent this.
It lists him as having the sword and gauntlet, fine.
It then gives a combined profile for them.
Something cannot be a combined profile if it's a singular weapon, that part is common sense.
Can you show me where it states each weapon uses the following profile please?
Or where it states he may use the sword or the fist separately?
"Used together" does not mean anything by itself. Robute simply uses the two weapons together.
"Used together as a single weapon" would indicate no +1 A.
"Used together using this single profile for the combined weapon" would indicate no +1 A.
A listing of weapons "used together" followed by a listing of a profile means we have 2 weapons with the melee type. Therefore, +1 A.
JNAProductions wrote: More than that, he has 6 freaking attacks base! Do you NEED to give him one more? Is 6 attacks, for 3 hits and 1 D strength hit on average not enough for you?
Power level has no place in a RAW discussion.
If power level is an issue people vote on it at the ITC and at that point it doesn't matter at all what the rules say.
In other words, direct this comment at Frontline Gaming but not at YMDC.
Yeah, true. Except the RAW is clear that he has only one weapon-there is one melee profile listed, and one ranged.
Where does it say in the rules that a single profile listing means a single weapon?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/28 17:30:10
2017/03/28 17:31:08
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Jackal wrote: It states they are used together using 1 profile.
If it were 2 duplicate profiles it would state: the weapons are used together using the following profiles.
Hence plural on profiles.
However it states profile, showing only 1 profile is used.
If it were 2 entirely seperate weapons there would be 2 profiles, which there is not.
Robute's 2 weapons simply have the exact same Melee profile, just as if he had two chain swords.
Robute's Army List Entry also states . . .
Spoiler:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Notice that it does not say this . . .
Spoiler:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon (in conjuction with the Emperor's Sword) and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
So the two weapons are separably usable. In fact, they have to be, or else the Hand of Dominion could not be fired separably as a ranged weapon in the shooting phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/28 17:43:13
2017/03/28 17:54:12
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Jackal wrote: It states they are used together using 1 profile.
If it were 2 duplicate profiles it would state: the weapons are used together using the following profiles.
Hence plural on profiles.
However it states profile, showing only 1 profile is used.
If it were 2 entirely seperate weapons there would be 2 profiles, which there is not.
Robute's 2 weapons simply have the exact same Melee profile, just as if he had two chain swords.
Robute's Army List Entry also states . . .
Spoiler:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Notice that it does not say this . . .
Spoiler:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon (in conjuction with the Emperor's Sword) and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
So the two weapons are separably usable. In fact, they have to be, or else the Hand of Dominion could not be fired separably as a ranged weapon in the shooting phase.
That makes no sense at all. Firstly, we are only given permission to use the weapons together with the profile listed.
Secondly, the sentence about being able to use the Hand of Dominion in both the shooting and melee phase would be redundant.
This is my exact argument below! They show the two sharing the same profile stats furthermore saying that the hand has a ranged and can be used in melee indicating its a separate weapon.
Now all this aside the game i played i didnt give him plus one attack nor does he need it but thats besides the question to me it seems like he gets +1 attack.
Jackal wrote: It states they are used together using 1 profile.
If it were 2 duplicate profiles it would state: the weapons are used together using the following profiles.
Hence plural on profiles.
However it states profile, showing only 1 profile is used.
If it were 2 entirely seperate weapons there would be 2 profiles, which there is not.
Robute's 2 weapons simply have the exact same Melee profile, just as if he had two chain swords.
Robute's Army List Entry also states . . .
Spoiler:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Notice that it does not say this . . .
Spoiler:
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon (in conjuction with the Emperor's Sword) and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
So the two weapons are separably usable. In fact, they have to be, or else the Hand of Dominion could not be fired separably as a ranged weapon in the shooting phase.
2017/03/28 18:36:40
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Title, followed by fluff and profile. 8 Universal special rules + Chapter Tactics Ultramarines. 3 new unique special rules + Warlord trait.
(hint : no equipment list)
Box "Relics of Ultramar"
The Emperor"s Sword and the Hand of Dominion "These weapons are used together using the profile below"
melee profile + 2 new special rules from the profile
"The hand of dominion can also be used as ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn."
ranged profile
Armour of Fate 3++
Celestine's trick.
I see three permissions there:
1) Use sword AND hand combined to make melee attacks. The profile provided gives them both together the melee type.
(Note that according to BRB p. 40 Melee Type weapons can only be used to make melee attacks)
2) also (*) the hand can be used to make shooting attacks.
(*) meaning besides the just granted permission to use sword and hand together as melee weapon
This permission overrides the aforementioned BRB restriction for weapons with the melee type.
3) making a shooting attack doesn't block the player from using the hand together with the sword in melee
Please demonstrate permission to use the sword or the hand separately for a melee attack.
Title, followed by fluff and profile. 8 Universal special rules + Chapter Tactics Ultramarines. 3 new unique special rules + Warlord trait.
(hint : no equipment list)
Box "Relics of Ultramar"
The Emperor"s Sword and the Hand of Dominion "These weapons are used together using the profile below"
melee profile + 2 new special rules from the profile
"The hand of dominion can also be used as ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn."
ranged profile
Armour of Fate 3++
Celestine's trick.
I see three permissions there:
1) Use sword AND hand combined to make melee attacks. The profile provided gives them both together the melee type.
(Note that according to BRB p. 40 Melee Type weapons can only be used to make melee attacks)
2) also (*) the hand can be used to make shooting attacks.
(*) meaning besides the just granted permission to use sword and hand together as melee weapon
This permission overrides the aforementioned BRB restriction for weapons with the melee type.
3) making a shooting attack doesn't block the player from using the hand together with the sword in melee
Please demonstrate permission to use the sword or the hand separately for a melee attack.
The problem is in your #1. The literal text of the box can be both "used together" as in 'use as one item' or "used together" as in dual-wielding. Both are completely valid readings of that phrase.
2017/03/28 18:59:25
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Title, followed by fluff and profile. 8 Universal special rules + Chapter Tactics Ultramarines. 3 new unique special rules + Warlord trait.
(hint : no equipment list)
Box "Relics of Ultramar"
The Emperor"s Sword and the Hand of Dominion "These weapons are used together using the profile below"
melee profile + 2 new special rules from the profile
"The hand of dominion can also be used as ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn."
ranged profile
Armour of Fate 3++
Celestine's trick.
I see three permissions there:
1) Use sword AND hand combined to make melee attacks. The profile provided gives them both together the melee type.
(Note that according to BRB p. 40 Melee Type weapons can only be used to make melee attacks)
2) also (*) the hand can be used to make shooting attacks.
(*) meaning besides the just granted permission to use sword and hand together as melee weapon
This permission overrides the aforementioned BRB restriction for weapons with the melee type.
3) making a shooting attack doesn't block the player from using the hand together with the sword in melee
Please demonstrate permission to use the sword or the hand separately for a melee attack.
The problem is in your #1. The literal text of the box can be both "used together" as in 'use as one item' or "used together" as in dual-wielding. Both are completely valid readings of that phrase.
You are missing the point. People are arguing that both hand and sword are separate melee weapons.
Sword and fist are one relic, with one shared entry.
Sword and fist only get the melee weapon profile together.
You cannot use the sword alone, since you have no permission to use the profile without the hand. When using both the sword and the hand to unlock the profile, you have nothing left to grant you a bonus attack.
Title, followed by fluff and profile. 8 Universal special rules + Chapter Tactics Ultramarines. 3 new unique special rules + Warlord trait.
(hint : no equipment list)
Box "Relics of Ultramar"
The Emperor"s Sword and the Hand of Dominion "These weapons are used together using the profile below"
melee profile + 2 new special rules from the profile
"The hand of dominion can also be used as ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn."
ranged profile
Armour of Fate 3++
Celestine's trick.
I see three permissions there:
1) Use sword AND hand combined to make melee attacks. The profile provided gives them both together the melee type.
(Note that according to BRB p. 40 Melee Type weapons can only be used to make melee attacks)
2) also (*) the hand can be used to make shooting attacks.
(*) meaning besides the just granted permission to use sword and hand together as melee weapon
This permission overrides the aforementioned BRB restriction for weapons with the melee type.
3) making a shooting attack doesn't block the player from using the hand together with the sword in melee
Please demonstrate permission to use the sword or the hand separately for a melee attack.
The problem is in your #1. The literal text of the box can be both "used together" as in 'use as one item' or "used together" as in dual-wielding. Both are completely valid readings of that phrase.
You are missing the point. People are arguing that both hand and sword are separate melee weapons.
Sword and fist are one relic, with one shared entry.
Sword and fist only get the melee weapon profile together.
You cannot use the sword alone, since you have no permission to use the profile without the hand. When using both the sword and the hand to unlock the profile, you have nothing left to grant you a bonus attack.
No I think our positions are quite reversed. Just because we have one relic box does not mean that the sword and hand are a single relic, RAW. There's no RAW at all on that. Sharing an entry also does not mean they are one weapon, RAW (see wielding two Chainswords). Whether the sword and fist get the profile separately or together is what people have been debating for several pages now.
2017/03/28 19:36:57
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Title, followed by fluff and profile. 8 Universal special rules + Chapter Tactics Ultramarines. 3 new unique special rules + Warlord trait.
(hint : no equipment list)
Box "Relics of Ultramar"
The Emperor"s Sword and the Hand of Dominion "These weapons are used together using the profile below"
melee profile + 2 new special rules from the profile
"The hand of dominion can also be used as ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn."
ranged profile
Armour of Fate 3++
Celestine's trick.
I see three permissions there:
1) Use sword AND hand combined to make melee attacks. The profile provided gives them both together the melee type.
(Note that according to BRB p. 40 Melee Type weapons can only be used to make melee attacks)
2) also (*) the hand can be used to make shooting attacks.
(*) meaning besides the just granted permission to use sword and hand together as melee weapon
This permission overrides the aforementioned BRB restriction for weapons with the melee type.
3) making a shooting attack doesn't block the player from using the hand together with the sword in melee
Please demonstrate permission to use the sword or the hand separately for a melee attack.
The problem is in your #1. The literal text of the box can be both "used together" as in 'use as one item' or "used together" as in dual-wielding. Both are completely valid readings of that phrase.
You are missing the point. People are arguing that both hand and sword are separate melee weapons.
Sword and fist are one relic, with one shared entry.
Sword and fist only get the melee weapon profile together.
You cannot use the sword alone, since you have no permission to use the profile without the hand. When using both the sword and the hand to unlock the profile, you have nothing left to grant you a bonus attack.
No I think our positions are quite reversed. Just because we have one relic box does not mean that the sword and hand are a single relic, RAW. There's no RAW at all on that. Sharing an entry also does not mean they are one weapon, RAW (see wielding two Chainswords). Whether the sword and fist get the profile separately or together is what people have been debating for several pages now.
The relic box contains two relics:
1) sword and fist
2) armour
Each of the two relics comes with their special unique RAW, as detailed above. That is actually required, since the relic is new. It isn't defined anywhere but in it's own relic entry.
People have been debating quite detached from the actual RAW, assuming a permission to use the sword or hand separately when reading the permission to shoot with the hand for example.
Going by the discussion thread without reading the dataslate you might get the impression that any of the following would be true:
- Robby G has a list of gear which lists three items: hand, fist and armour. -- FALSE, he has two relics.
- Robby G can make melee attacks with his fist and shoot with it. -- FALSE he can shoot with the fist, but can only make melee attacks combining the sword and the hand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: See, the difference to the "two chainswords" example is that these reference a completely separate bit of rules, which defines a chainsword as a melee weapon.
sword and hand only have a combined definition in Robby G's dataslate. They are not defined separately.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/28 19:44:29
Happyjew wrote: Question for you col_impact. I (foolishly) charge Roboute with Jain Zar. She disarms him.
1. Does Roboute "lose" both sword and fist, or just one?
2. If he only loses 1, what profile do you use for the other?
3. Where did you find the profile for your answer on #2?
Simple. No where in Robute's rules does it say that his weapons count as a single weapon.
Jain Zar disarms only a weapon, not weapons, so just one weapon would be lost by Robute.
Emperor's Sword has the profile listed on Robute's Army List Entry. Hand of Dominion has the profile listed on Robute's Army List Entry.
Now that I'm home I can deal with this.
1. IMO can go either way. However, it is a moot point because...
2. The only profile listed is used when the sword and fist are used together. There is no permission to use that profile with one of the two weapons and not the other.
3. The rule portion for the sword and fist (not the italicized fluff) clearly state the two weapons are used together with one profile. If you are not using both weapons, where is your permission to use the profile in gathering Storm 3?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2017/03/28 20:06:35
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Title, followed by fluff and profile. 8 Universal special rules + Chapter Tactics Ultramarines. 3 new unique special rules + Warlord trait.
(hint : no equipment list)
Box "Relics of Ultramar"
The Emperor"s Sword and the Hand of Dominion "These weapons are used together using the profile below"
melee profile + 2 new special rules from the profile
"The hand of dominion can also be used as ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn."
ranged profile
Armour of Fate 3++
Celestine's trick.
I see three permissions there:
1) Use sword AND hand combined to make melee attacks. The profile provided gives them both together the melee type.
(Note that according to BRB p. 40 Melee Type weapons can only be used to make melee attacks)
2) also (*) the hand can be used to make shooting attacks.
(*) meaning besides the just granted permission to use sword and hand together as melee weapon
This permission overrides the aforementioned BRB restriction for weapons with the melee type.
3) making a shooting attack doesn't block the player from using the hand together with the sword in melee
Please demonstrate permission to use the sword or the hand separately for a melee attack.
The problem is in your #1. The literal text of the box can be both "used together" as in 'use as one item' or "used together" as in dual-wielding. Both are completely valid readings of that phrase.
You are missing the point. People are arguing that both hand and sword are separate melee weapons.
Sword and fist are one relic, with one shared entry.
Sword and fist only get the melee weapon profile together.
You cannot use the sword alone, since you have no permission to use the profile without the hand. When using both the sword and the hand to unlock the profile, you have nothing left to grant you a bonus attack.
No I think our positions are quite reversed. Just because we have one relic box does not mean that the sword and hand are a single relic, RAW. There's no RAW at all on that. Sharing an entry also does not mean they are one weapon, RAW (see wielding two Chainswords). Whether the sword and fist get the profile separately or together is what people have been debating for several pages now.
The relic box contains two relics:
1) sword and fist
2) armour
Each of the two relics comes with their special unique RAW, as detailed above. That is actually required, since the relic is new. It isn't defined anywhere but in it's own relic entry.
People have been debating quite detached from the actual RAW, assuming a permission to use the sword or hand separately when reading the permission to shoot with the hand for example.
Going by the discussion thread without reading the dataslate you might get the impression that any of the following would be true:
- Robby G has a list of gear which lists three items: hand, fist and armour. -- FALSE, he has two relics.
- Robby G can make melee attacks with his fist and shoot with it. -- FALSE he can shoot with the fist, but can only make melee attacks combining the sword and the hand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: See, the difference to the "two chainswords" example is that these reference a completely separate bit of rules, which defines a chainsword as a melee weapon.
sword and hand only have a combined definition in Robby G's dataslate. They are not defined separately.
No, you're jumping ahead of where the debate is. The other side is saying the box contains three relics, not two. You are assuming the box refers only to the sword and fist being used 'together' in some fashion, but there isn't RAW for that. The box simply says "Sword and Hammer" and "used together", but it doesn't say how. There's nothing in RAW to say that if the Sword and Hand had identical stats they couldn't share an entry box. If there is, quote it. You'll end the debate most likely, but it's just not there so far as I or anyone else has been able to determine.
If I had Sword and Sword B and dual-wielded them, you could give me an entry that says "Sword A and Sword B, which Audustum uses together by dual-wielding". If I'd fused them into sword-chucks, you could give me one that says "Sword and Sword B, which Audustum uses together as one weapon". The box would be labelled "Sword A and Sword B" in either case. So just on the text we have, it's actually not clear HOW the Primarch is using these weapons.
2017/03/28 20:50:36
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
As i pointed before just check some Eldar or Dark Eldar weapons along the text for Marneus fists.
Chainsabres, Mirrorswords, Shardnet and impaler and also the Gauntlets of Ultramar rules, explain when they are a pair and are wielded as 2x Different weapons providing an extra attack.
Now check the Lash wip and Boneswords the Razorflail and RG rules they don't provide the explanation the previous weapons does so no extra attack granted.
