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Why would they need to re-release existing factions though? Make a new self-contained trilogy in the eastern hemisphere, Grand Cathay as the Empire-style "baseline" humans and then go hog-wild with all the crazy stuff hinted at here & there in the background; feral Lizardmen tribes from the Dragon Isles, the blood-gorged Naga Queens of Kuresh and their legions of Snakemen, the fabled myriad beastmen of Ind, the Elvish nation on the Lost Isles of Elithis(tap the old Sea Elf lore?), replace the Norsca concept with that faction of Marauders I forget the name of that are basically the Mongols, etc etc.

If people accepted the format the first time around, I don't see why they wouldn't a second, given it would again be a whole new campaign map that would grow over the course of the three games and could have its own Mortal Empires mode. Hell you never know, by the time they were done with a second trilogy it might even be possible for desktop PCs to handle a campaign with the entire Warhammer World map without melting into slag

The thing with AoS isn't so much that "rank & file" battles don't happen, and more that the impression I keep getting from it is they're essentially just backdrops for whatever the Big Damn Hero protagonists are doing, much moreso than WHF. Like with the "game world" itself, the focus seems to be either much narrower ie on the BDH's specifically, or much broader ie on the grand strategy/pronouncements of gods kind of scale. That works fine when the whole point is to leave a big empty space in the middle that the players can fill up themselves with their own personal army backgrounds and campaign maps, but less so for a videogame series which mechanically fits right into that relatively undefined middle space.

Doing the parts of the world GW barely touched (and that was decades ago) doesn't make any sense for licensed product.

total warhammer not!Japan and not!China has no value as a licensed product. GW would be 'licensing' basically nothing and CA would be doing all the work themselves- they'd be better off doing their own non-IP eastern fantasy game. The total war franchise sells enough on its own merits.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I really hope Alith Anar is a warband lord, it would make a fun addition and make him very special.

It makes sense for that character. Alith Anar should not have a starting settlement, he should have no settlements at all, that is for other Asur.

Did you read End Times: Khaine?

Alith Anar apparently had a massive encampment/settlement in the Shadowlands. Soldiers, families, the whole shebang.

Encampment yes. Look what happens when you upgrade a Chaos Lord to level 5 encampment.

Lots of infrastructure but entirely mobile.

Voss wrote:
Doing the parts of the world GW barely touched (and that was decades ago) doesn't make any sense for licensed product.

total warhammer not!Japan and not!China has no value as a licensed product. GW would be 'licensing' basically nothing and CA would be doing all the work themselves- they'd be better off doing their own non-IP eastern fantasy game. The total war franchise sells enough on its own merits.

That'll be why they did their own fantasy wargame rather than licensing one? They're paying for the license for two reasons - to appeal to hardcore fans of WHF present or lapsed, and to tap the name recognition for extremely casual past fans and folk who've heard of "the warhammers" in passing. The first group would be overjoyed to see the parts of the setting GW neglected fleshed out and explored, and the latter are attracted to the name, tone, and aesthetic cues not specific factions or locations. Would it sell as many copies as the "play the army you used to collect" first trilogy? Probably not, but the idea it wouldn't sell enough to justify the license - and recall that GW licenses seem to be cheap enough that any shovelware dev who wants one can get it - is a complete nonsense.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I really hope Alith Anar is a warband lord, it would make a fun addition and make him very special.

It makes sense for that character. Alith Anar should not have a starting settlement, he should have no settlements at all, that is for other Asur.

Did you read End Times: Khaine?

Alith Anar apparently had a massive encampment/settlement in the Shadowlands. Soldiers, families, the whole shebang.

Encampment yes. Look what happens when you upgrade a Chaos Lord to level 5 encampment.

Lots of infrastructure but entirely mobile.

In game terms, I don't know what that means. I just saw the bit about Alith Anar and wanted to make something clear.

He revealed his 'domain' to Teclis during the events of Khaine.

End Times: Khaine pg 115 wrote:
'Nagarythe was ever the least populous of the Ten Kingdoms' said Alith Anar. 'Now look at it.'
The Shadow King swept his hand across the valley below, and the mist parted. To Teclis' surprise, it was thick with campfires and tents. They stretched as far as the eye could see, nestling in old ruins and tangled gorse.
'I had no idea.'

The Shadow King was a major power, but he kept it hidden from prying eyes. The various warbands of Shadow Warriors were the only thing he ever provided to others or that they saw.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Voss wrote:
Doing the parts of the world GW barely touched (and that was decades ago) doesn't make any sense for licensed product.

total warhammer not!Japan and not!China has no value as a licensed product. GW would be 'licensing' basically nothing and CA would be doing all the work themselves- they'd be better off doing their own non-IP eastern fantasy game. The total war franchise sells enough on its own merits.

That'll be why they did their own fantasy wargame rather than licensing one? They're paying for the license for two reasons - to appeal to hardcore fans of WHF present or lapsed, and to tap the name recognition for extremely casual past fans and folk who've heard of "the warhammers" in passing. The first group would be overjoyed to see the parts of the setting GW neglected fleshed out and explored, and the latter are attracted to the name, tone, and aesthetic cues not specific factions or locations. Would it sell as many copies as the "play the army you used to collect" first trilogy? Probably not, but the idea it wouldn't sell enough to justify the license - and recall that GW licenses seem to be cheap enough that any shovelware dev who wants one can get it - is a complete nonsense.

Not sure what you're on about. They did total warhammer because it made sense to them and GW financially. But they did it for actual warhammer stuff- empire and vampire counts and high elves and all that established and detailed stuff. Plus a bit of a weird kuldge for norsca.

You are suddenly talking about areas and armies GW never developed - Cathay and Nippon and etc. There is no reason for a license agreement for CA to develop those factions from scratch, because other than a couple throw away lines in Ogre Kingdoms or some really terrible and dated 3rd edition ally lists, that's what they would have to do. *That* makes no sense- developing the background, the art, the themes, the unit designs, the way units work, what they look like, and all that would cost them money and time (also known as 'more money'). Plus it's 2018. They can't do what GW did in 1987 and just churn out some vaguely racist stereotypes for a handful of units and call it a day (huzzah for kamikaze suicide bombers).

As much as I would love to see CA continue working on Warhammer games for another trilogy I'm not sure it would ever happen. Chances are that once the third game is done they will start shopping around for another IP to try out, maybe Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings? Sure the IP would cost a lot more to acquire but they would be expanding their customer base even further.

That is what I would do in their case anyway just from observing how often other video game franchises tend to stagnate and become dull after the fourth or fifth instalment unless they drastically change something about it.

Would totally buy Total War: Lord of the Rings and Total War: Song of Ice and Fire.

The game content looks amazing. Can't wait to play with Alarielle or Alith Anar.

Lord of the Rings has missed its sweet spot and its sad that CA never got the Battle for Middle Earth* licence - those game were nice but never on the same scale as TW. Right now I think that Middle Earth would be very expensive to buy and won't have the film-tie-in bonus of huge free marketing for the company.

Game of Thrones is also approaching that point of diminishing returns, though if CA could get the contract and release during the last season they'd be ok. Game of Thrones would be interesting as it would be a very low fantasy game compared to Warhammer

The other name thrown around is Malazan, which is even more magically nuts than Warhammer - but at the same time is less well known (its well known in fantasy circles but not to the same degree as Warhammer or Game of Thrones to the casual market).







I still don't forgive EA basically advertising the first game as being TW scale for ages and ages and ages and then releasing something that was not only far smaller, but had the cheek to have resource points shared by all factions so on an 8 player map you ahd fewer units than on a 2 player map per side!)

Total War: Silmarillion

I am not too fussed about Total War: Game of Thrones. Book 5 and season 4 soured me on that franchise.

I would like to see Total War: Legend of the Five Rings myself.

CA should wait for the Amazon Lord of the Rings and try to tie in on that.

The new updates look very nice. 4 more days. :(

I am quite excited about running High Elves with Treemen.

So what factions are actually left at this stage that aren't part of the Nippon/Cathay end of things to add? Just off the top of my head, there's:-

-Ogre Kingdoms
-Daemons of all flavours
-Luthor Harkon and the Vampire Coast Zombies
-Chaos Dwarfs
-potentially an expanded Kislev
-Dogs of War/Border Princes/Southern Realms (good old Borgio the Besieger and so on)
-Pirates of Sartosa
-Hungs and Kurgan

Did I miss any?

The Southlands stuff for Lizardmen; they didn't have Saurus if I remember correctly but had phalanxes of more warlike Skinks.

I gotta imagine 3 is going to center around Ogre Kingdoms, Chaos Dwarves, and Daemons.

That way they can look east, and keep it relatively centered there.

If that's the case, it would make sense for the next big expansion to focus on Harkon/Sartosa/Dogs of War, to keep it relatively Vortex centred. Then they can head east to do up the Chaos Dwarves, Daemons and Ogre Kingdoms, and finish off with an expansion covering a few more Northland Marauder tribes.That would cover everything bar the odd one out Amazonia/Cathay/other stuff never really expanded on (and which most people don't really know or care about).

CA doesn't really have the toolkit to make a GoT game. Most of what made GoT interesting wasn't the endless huge battles which is what TW boils down to, which fits LotR and WH. The AI doesn't do diplomacy at all really, how many times haven't mortal enemies in the WH lore teamed up to fight the player? LotR has a great Medieval 2 mod that still holds up relatively well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Southlands stuff for Lizardmen; they didn't have Saurus if I remember correctly but had phalanxes of more warlike Skinks.

Yes there are more red crested Skinks because Saurus are quite rare there. But for gane 3 they could include the Dragon Isles, feral Skinks and Kroxigors without Slann or Saurus leadership. Unlikely they will include anything like that though. Best hope is that the Lizardmen lordpack will bring the Prophet of Sotek and Skink Oracles for a Skink focussed armies. Like what Skarsnik did for Goblins in game 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
So what factions are actually left at this stage that aren't part of the Nippon/Cathay end of things to add? Just off the top of my head, there's:-

-Ogre Kingdoms
-Daemons of all flavours
-Luthor Harkon and the Vampire Coast Zombies
-Chaos Dwarfs
-potentially an expanded Kislev
-Dogs of War/Border Princes/Southern Realms (good old Borgio the Besieger and so on)
-Pirates of Sartosa
-Hungs and Kurgan

Did I miss any?

Araby?

Game of Thrones has some epic battles, but yes Crusader Kings 2 would be a better home for it on the whole rest of the game outside of the combat.

The diplomacy in Total Warhammer isn’t bad. I think it’s actually the best the franchise has had in a while.

Meh, its only the best because they cut out a lot of things and reduced terrible mechanics like realm divide and the inevitable AI world team up. No more marriage, region trading or even vassals besides some specific factions. Its pretty barebones, not on the level for a GoT style campaign.

Even so, Empire factions still rather die than confederate with the player faction.

Well a GoT game would give them the opportunity to get better with their diplomacy mechanics.

True, but in the end there is just a limit to how far CA can take a mechanic bolted on to facilitate the tactical battle mode (one which basically shuts down when you get too big or play on higher difficulties). What GoT would need is CK2 and the tactical side of TW to combine.

A GoT total war game is mostly going to be about humans beating up other humans on a fantasy land mass. The easiest way would probably be just to develop Medieval 3 and build a GoT standalone on top of that.

The upcoming Three Kingdoms game might be a good indication on them improving the political side of TW. Curious to see what they do.

I think the key is that Total War is about the battles and war. The games have never had strong diplomatic options like Crusader Kings series games have, because TW really shines when you're getting into war, rather than spending ages in the overveiw map.

Crusader Kings is the total opposite; battles are actually dead boring because they are purely a number crunch, but the poltiical scene is where the complexity and action is.


To my mind the two games approach the same concept of nation ruling from different ends. I think to pair the two together might sound fantastic, but in practical reality it might end up just too complicated to be fun. Having to balance your politics, family breeding, war goals, army conscription and building, army deployment and battles etc..... I think it would overwhelm many players and push the game very much into a niche of its own.

In addition it runs a higher risk of making a game where winning becomes a very complex goal and you either have to juggle lots of things or keep things simple and often play many games similar to get to a stable position.


It would be nice to see TW expand on diplomacy a little more, but honestly not vast amounts. More complex doesn't always mean more fun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I really hope Alith Anar is a warband lord, it would make a fun addition and make him very special.

It makes sense for that character. Alith Anar should not have a starting settlement, he should have no settlements at all, that is for other Asur.

Did you read End Times: Khaine?

Alith Anar apparently had a massive encampment/settlement in the Shadowlands. Soldiers, families, the whole shebang.

Encampment yes. Look what happens when you upgrade a Chaos Lord to level 5 encampment.

Lots of infrastructure but entirely mobile.

In game terms, I don't know what that means. I just saw the bit about Alith Anar and wanted to make something clear.

He revealed his 'domain' to Teclis during the events of Khaine.

End Times: Khaine pg 115 wrote:
'Nagarythe was ever the least populous of the Ten Kingdoms' said Alith Anar. 'Now look at it.'
The Shadow King swept his hand across the valley below, and the mist parted. To Teclis' surprise, it was thick with campfires and tents. They stretched as far as the eye could see, nestling in old ruins and tangled gorse.
'I had no idea.'

The Shadow King was a major power, but he kept it hidden from prying eyes. The various warbands of Shadow Warriors were the only thing he ever provided to others or that they saw.

Yes. Alith Anar was worthy of having a major game faction built around him. It is entirely justifiable in the fluff for players to have 'stacks' of Naggarythe warbands with developed 'settlement' infrastructure similar in its way to what Archaon & Co can enjoy.

 Overread wrote:
I think the key is that Total War is about the battles and war. The games have never had strong diplomatic options like Crusader Kings series games have, because TW really shines when you're getting into war, rather than spending ages in the overveiw map.

Crusader Kings is the total opposite; battles are actually dead boring because they are purely a number crunch, but the poltiical scene is where the complexity and action is.


To my mind the two games approach the same concept of nation ruling from different ends. I think to pair the two together might sound fantastic, but in practical reality it might end up just too complicated to be fun. Having to balance your politics, family breeding, war goals, army conscription and building, army deployment and battles etc..... I think it would overwhelm many players and push the game very much into a niche of its own.

In addition it runs a higher risk of making a game where winning becomes a very complex goal and you either have to juggle lots of things or keep things simple and often play many games similar to get to a stable position.


It would be nice to see TW expand on diplomacy a little more, but honestly not vast amounts. More complex doesn't always mean more fun.

Yes, CK2 would possibly make it to complex. But you can still take a good amount of inspiration for a GoT version. With the current system it wouldn't be GoT as much as mild fantasy Middle Ages TW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, some more leaks? If legit it looks like the TK are getting the Bone Giant with a bow at least. As a TK fan I'm happy if its true because its a pretty classic unit, but the TK roster is already pretty complete, wouldn't there have been other races more in need of another unit?

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219634/bone-giant-leaked-on-stream-confirmed/p1

Long patch notes are up!

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-ii-patch-notes-the-resurgent-update

Loads of changes in there even a big break down of a lot of adjustments to each faction. A few of note:


AI will no longer dodge every artillery projectile.

Certain actions still do not have Karl Franz’ consent NOR WILL THEY EVER

I note a lack of 'increased optimization of loading times' anywhere in the patch notes. ;/

But overall, looks good.

Lots of Tomb Kings unit nerfs. But honestly, I walked over enemies with constructs to an absurd degree, so it's probably understandable.

Ranald resurgent: new content leaks now seem to happen by default.

Hmmm.

There's a few notes on other fixes in there so it might just be optimizing wasn't on the cards for this specific release. Remembering that all the Regiments and Norsca had to be remade its quite a lot of content in this update already.

It might also be that the team for optimising is now looking forward and working on Warhammer 3

It's out! The sword of Khaine is no joke.

Steam is currently offering discounts on a number of GW-related games.

75% off of TW:WH
33% off of each of the paid TW:WH DLC (except for the blood and gore DLC)
25% off of TW:WH2
10% off of Tomb Kings DLC

The discount ends on the 4th.