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Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Regardless this conversation all feels very mis-directional. As above (that you haven't quoted/responded to, again) this entire thing is in response to the claim that GSC are hard to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'.


I don't know about hard to pilot, I really am not a good person to speak to that aspect of them, I play against them too often. I know them almost as well as I know my own army sadly. As for the glass cannon part, for sure, none of their units have any real staying power. Aberrants are about as good as it gets for them and even they get beat down pretty quickly, in my experience.

I've found Abs pretty tanky but either way we can see the codex has both increased the Abs durability but also introduced new, durable units point for point.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I've found Abs pretty tanky but either way we can see the codex has both increased the Abs durability but also introduced new, durable units point for point.


I haven't seen anything else in the codex so far that really bothers me, certainly nothing as durable as Aberrants. Heavy Bolter still kills almost every non-vehicle unit in their army without too much trouble. Mental Onslaught is something to be aware of, but that's probably not going to be open-ended damage in the long term, and denies are easy to come by, the Kellermorph is a suicide bomber that might kill one badly positioned character, the Sanctus concerns me more honestly. Brood Brothers getting orders, after reading the rule more carefully I tend to agree they won't be able to use orders, especially given that the Vox-Caster allows them to re-roll morale tests and makes no mention of orders.

Furthermore, the lists being posted here by people trying to go through the contortions necessary to get all of these special little characters in is laughable, I mean look at these lists, all they can do is clear infantry, god forbid they ran into anything that was actually durable.

Abs got one stratagem to improve their FNP by 1 for a turn that they can't use coming out of deep strike. I'm much more concerned about the one that lets them fight again when they die, I promise you, from my own personal experience, that is the one that really sucks. At the same time, shoot them, charge them, suck it up, they die.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.

CAAC is making declarations that something is too strong before you've even attempted to adapt to it and beat it. My argument is not that you're wrong, my argument is that whining for changes this early is not a competitive standpoint. Competitive players find ways to adapt to new threats entering the meta and from that point we see how good a dex is.

There's literally no way I can be "proved wrong" lol, you're rewriting my stance to hinge on the viability of GSC when it does not. GSC could become S+ tier, and I've never said that's impossible - just that we don't know. You think you know, but competitive players will tell you that no, you don't really - because even many time tournament winners are interested to see the impact of a dex on a meta before decrying it. You are not one of these players. Your declarations may end up being right by chance, but if there were it's for the wrong reasons entirely. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.



 Cephalobeard wrote:
Spoiler:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.

Blips man. Blips and chips. Melee unit goes into position to attack blip x with blip y behind it. I wonder if blip y will happen to be Aberrantoes? picking the fight.

2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.

See below.

3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.

Is there a better one outside of relics, named character weapons and titan/vehicle weapons? What?

4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."

My mistake, I thought it wasn't tied to the end of the phase.

5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.

To be clear I was using their durability as a counter to the claim that CotFAE has less durable units than the Black Heart Kabal and hence A Plan Gens in the Making is easily going to be stopped by killing these fragile units.

I do believe Aberrants are better than the units that they are equivalent to such as Nobs, Terminators etc for their price. They can DS and stack enough buffs/stratagems to ensure their target is mushed. They are more durable against the weapons their intended targets are likely to bear. Does that make sense?


1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.

Welcome to 2019, it's not the first rule that he's gotten wrong either that he won't step down from when called on it either, too busy making strong declarations to slow down now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/07 21:53:23


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:

How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?

How do you do that?

Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.

This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





 Daedalus81 wrote:



babelfish wrote:
I am not going to fight with the quote system while on mobile, so in regards to the flamer bomb conversation:

I am having serious difficulty deciding if I would rather run a flamer bomb or a devilgaunt bomb. Both units fill the same role. The gauntbomb is significantly more expensive, but hits much harder, is more flexible, and eats fewer CP.

Numbers!

A 20 model gauntbomb costs 160 points, and requires a ~90 point delivery mechanism (Jorg., 3x Raveners). It costs 1 CP to use the tunnel strat. They have 18" range and hit put out 35 S4 AP0 hits, for 15 dead GEQ. They can double tap for 2 CP and have enough range to make hitting a second target on the drop reasonably viable.

The Raveners (assuming deathspitters and rending, because that is useful and adds up to a nice round number) will kill a few more GEQ and provide a melee threat.

The entire combo can get access to ignores cover (warlord trait on a Neurothrope that comes with them) although that has disadvantages and limited utility.

So, the gaunts are roughly twice the cost of the flamer bomb for roughly twice the damage. Increased flexibility vs lower base cost.


You meant 60 shots at 3 per gaunt on 20 gaunts, right?

60 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 13.3 GEQ //doubles to 26.6 for 2 CP

Total cost is 250 points and 3 CP.

The flamer bomb --

70 * .5 * .666 = 23 GEQ

Total cost is 160 and 2 CP



Hail of living ammunition triggers at 20 gaunts, but I calculated it as reroll 1's to hit instead of to wound, so we were both wrong.

(60 * .5 * .666 * .666) + (60 * .166 * .5 * .666 * .666) = 13.3 + 2.208 = 15.508.

Raveners are 3 shots at S5 AP -1 for (3 * 3 * .5 * .666 *.166) = 0.497.

So the entire thing nets 16 GEQ for 1 CP or 31.5 for 3 CP. 90 points and 1 CP for 8.5 GEQ, the added flexibility of 18" range, and whatever value you want to put on 3 Ravener bodies.

The more I look at it the more I am included towards the flamers. The extra 8 kills doesn't feel worth 90 points. The Kelermorph generates close to that for less, if you really really need to finish off that screen.

There might be a place for the big gaunt bomb (30x, bringing a Neuro with them for fearless + smite, maybe a 4th Ravener), but that is a 450 point combo. Clears infantry like a charm, scratches ineffectually vs everything else.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:

How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?

How do you do that?

Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.

This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.


You can get a familiar for the Biologus that gives 2D3 pick one, but I don't know what T5 really does for them.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:

How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?

How do you do that?

Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.

This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.


You can get a familiar for the Biologus that gives 2D3 pick one, but I don't know what T5 really does for them.


It's the least desirable of the three buffs. It's not that it's bad, it's just not what you brought the Good Doctor for.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






the_scotsman wrote:
I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:

How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?

How do you do that?

Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.

This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.

You've literally explained it.

How do you do it? Iconward + stratagem for DV + Biophagus with CP reroll if required.

You want me to tell you how you get 10 ppm 2W, T4 -1 to hit bikes too? Or the Ridge runner?

edited by ingtaer - see warning below.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 23:26:12


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade





 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:

How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?

How do you do that?

Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.

This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.


You can get a familiar for the Biologus that gives 2D3 pick one, but I don't know what T5 really does for them.


The Familiar is also once a game ability. So it's once you get to pick out of two choices that might not be what you want.

Did the familiar ability say you could reroll one of the die if it was a double? Because if not, you might also not get a choice unfortunately.

The more I look at him, the more I wonder exactly how useful he will be consistently. I mean, you're already saving a reroll (maybe) for the inevitable 1 that's going to kill an Abberant.... But would you bother using it on the D3? Hrm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 22:27:37


PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Carnikang wrote:


The Familiar is also once a game ability. So it's once you get to pick out of two choices that might not be what you want.

Did the familiar ability say you could reroll one of the die if it was a double? Because if not, you might also not get a choice unfortunately.

The more I look at him, the more I wonder exactly how useful he will be consistently. I mean, you're already saving a reroll (maybe) for the inevitable 1 that's going to kill an Abberant.... But would you bother using it on the D3? Hrm.


Oddly enough there is no clause for doubles so you're SOL if it doesn't roll well.
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum








The amount of alerts that this thread is generating is quite frankly ridiculous. Please stop bickering and having little digs at other posters, if you find someone annoying put them on ignore, if they violate the rules then use the mod alert button and do not engage with them. Any more infractions are going to earn their poster a warning/suspension.

Thanks,
ingtaer.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





So, 3 months into the release of the codex, and GSC somehow didn't manage to dominate, or even significantly change the meta like DE or Knights were able to in half that time, so I thought I would take another look at this thread.

And my Gosh some of these comments are quite funny in hindsight.


Anyways, wanted to talk about Nick Rose. If you don't who this is, he is the most successful GSC player in the ITC and the guy who mained the army even when they were an index, and this week he has come out and said that and saying he's dropping the codex because he feels the dex is good at destroying bad players, but doesn't feel it has the steam to compete at high level play. Which is remarkably similar to what a few people said was the case in this thread, but were shouted down for it, by you guessed it - bad players.

I'd like to post these quotes from him, which are pretty darn relevant to the topic.


Nick Rose wrote:I am panning this codex. I think it has a lot of flavor but the output and the way it plays isn’t going to make it pass the mid tier. On top level games it will flop.

In short you can beat people who will leave gaps and spots open naturally.
The problem is is creates a lot of gotcha moments which makes people upset.

At the top level people screen out even at 3 inches or 9 inches and you don’t have the durability or models to fight it out. On top of it your match ups are not great as you are stuck between horde vs mech and can’t do either well.
Nick Rose wrote:You take units bit by bit and they seem good but when you start combing or moving things together it doesn’t work well or at all.


Whether or not you agree with Nick, I think this thread serves an excellent example of why calling for nerfs and describing yourself a balance expert on units weeks before a model has been released, without even having PLAYED that unit, is a really low level mentality, that is only holding you back. Top players, winners of international tournaments, people with multiple games experience of the dex already, told us THEY weren't able to know where things stand or how well they could be dealt with just yet, without playing them first. If you think you were somehow able to do it where they weren't it, just by taking a lot at the datasheet for a model, this hopefully shows you exactly how much of the puzzle you are missing in your evaluations. Some of you need to start leveling up your own play, instead of complaining for GW to level down other people's. Almost all playable armies have something strong they can do, and GSC have some very pointed weaknesses to go along with it. Kelermorph didn't even up being the top unit in the dex.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/26 04:44:37


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






The impact of the army as a whole has no bearing on whether the Kelermorph is too cheap for what he offers. This is off topic.

Also, here in the real world, GSC are winning events and placing high.

Nick Rose is somewhat famous for his.....zealous....feelings about GSC. I don't trust his opinion, particularly given his comments pre codex (that were patently false).
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




The impact of the army totally has bearing on whether a unit is over/under costed or not. You can’t balance in a vacuum. If something is powerful but the rest of an army isn’t, and thus the powerful thing isn’t played, what is the problem?
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 SHUPPET wrote:
Whether or not you agree with Nick, I think this thread serves an excellent example of why calling for nerfs and describing yourself a balance expert on units weeks before a model has been released, without even having PLAYED that unit...
Agreed that you should play with a unit before decisively panning it.

As for results - GSC placed 2nd ain this years GT. Kellermorph was in the list.
A quick google for GSC GT results brought up three more lists for March - Kellermorph in each and every one (2 2nd places and a 5th place).
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The impact of the army as a whole has no bearing on whether the Kelermorph is too cheap for what he offers. This is off topic.

Also, here in the real world, GSC are winning events and placing high.

Nick Rose is somewhat famous for his.....zealous....feelings about GSC. I don't trust his opinion, particularly given his comments pre codex (that were patently false).


His post was talking about the Kelermorph. I actually weighed up whether to post it here or the more generalised "GSC IS BROKE lets boycott" thread that was doing the rounds at the same time, and deemed it to be most relevant here. It's not important, both threads mostly boiled down to the exact same complaint of Kelermorph wrecking everything, so it's whatever .

I don't see how you can say their placings are irrelevant to whether the Kelermorph is too cheap or not for what it does. Different armies CAN have different strengths, if GSC having a cheap option to nuke characters was too much this would be reflected in their results. If it really is as strong as you claim, It clearly is a strength that is more than balanced out by the races downsides. Regardless, it's not really as strong as you claimed at all, turns out it's a cheap character but also an easy to screen gimmick that high level players are dealing with without a stumble.

They haven't had a single week where they've done better than even Tau, and being that Tau aren't even a top 3 faction, I don't think it's fair to imply GSC have come down and been some broken faction, just as a playable one. Kelermorph costs chips, and still wasn't even played in all the lists that DID place. But now that I've said this sentence I realise you probably were saying it was doing better than what Nick Rose's comment would imply, in which case fair enough, they have been able to compete in the events we've seen so far. However, I think what Nick Rose is referring to is top tables at a GT when he will be against serious opponents of his own caliber, ones that learn every match up, and this is where everyone who plays GSC against the same opponent over and over has probably seen, that the army starts to fall apart. There is so many options for counter play that the gimmicks the army relies on becomes a bit of a liability. I don't think the statements are too unfair for his level of play, but time will tell how they do at the next serious event or two.

What statements did he make that you're referring to, and can I get quotes? I might have missed them, but maybe we interpreted them differently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 08:03:43


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 SHUPPET wrote:
They haven't had a single week where they've done better than even Tau, and being that Tau aren't even a top 3 faction,
Aside from making the obvious comment that Tau were literally the only faction ahead of the GSC at the recent big warhammer GT -
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/b3tsy4/as_requested_lvo_performance_by_faction/

If i'm reading that chart correctly the nid/gsc faction is ahead of everything except for ynnari soup, (with the tau as by far the best mono faction). In fact they seem to have the best average performance of any faction, just losing out to ynnari and knight soup for the top scores.

The Kelermorph has appeared in every GT-level GSC list i've seen so far this month, but to be fair that's not many lists. It's not a widely played faction.
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 SHUPPET wrote:
His post was talking about the Kelermorph. I actually weighed up whether to post it here or the more generalised "GSC IS BROKE lets boycott" thread that was doing the rounds at the same time, and deemed it to be most relevant here. It's not important, both threads mostly boiled down to the exact same complaint of Kelermorph wrecking everything, so it's whatever .

I don't see how you can say their placings are irrelevant to whether the Kelermorph is too cheap or not for what it does. Different armies CAN have different strengths, if GSC having a cheap option to nuke characters was too much this would be reflected in their results. If it really is as strong as you claim, It clearly is a strength that is more than balanced out by the races downsides. Regardless, it's not really as strong as you claimed at all, turns out it's a cheap character but also an easy to screen gimmick that high level players are dealing with without a stumble.


It's not obvious from the quotations that he is discussing the Kelermorph specifically at all. I was going to ask why you didn't post this in the general GSC is busted thread to be honest because it seems more relevant there. I don't think both threads boiled down to a discussion only around the Kelermorph. Obviously this thread did because of the title, but I recall many other synergies discussed in the other thread. The insta-kill any unit in the game psychic power shenanigans, the hand flamer acs, the psychic sniper, the demo charge bikes etc etc It's not particularly important though.

A unit can still be too cheap in an army that is otherwise underpowered. One OP character does not an OP army make, particularly given the current constraints of the game (rule of 3). Similarly a faction can have awful characters (DE, generally) and still be extremely competitive. Regarding the power of the Keler specifically, it seems to feature in many competitive lists, as shown by A.T above (and that implies that it is a competitive/very well costed choice). Personally I think units that fulfil similar roles should be balanced against each other externally. So the Keler should be balanced against other character killers, which it probably is given the new changes to the Assassins, but this discussion predates that (and I think they are also a bit much).

They haven't had a single week where they've done better than even Tau, and being that Tau aren't even a top 3 faction, I don't think it's fair to imply GSC have come down and been some broken faction, just as a playable one. Kelermorph costs chips, and still wasn't even played in all the lists that DID place. But now that I've said this sentence I realise you probably were saying it was doing better than what Nick Rose's comment would imply, in which case fair enough, they have been able to compete in the events we've seen so far. However, I think what Nick Rose is referring to is top tables at a GT when he will be against serious opponents of his own caliber, ones that learn every match up, and this is where everyone who plays GSC against the same opponent over and over has probably seen, that the army starts to fall apart. There is so many options for counter play that the gimmicks the army relies on becomes a bit of a liability. I don't think the statements are too unfair for his level of play, but time will tell how they do at the next serious event or two.

What statements did he make that you're referring to, and can I get quotes? I might have missed them, but maybe we interpreted them differently.


Tau are very good at the moment. They are the top mono I think currently and definitely the top xeno dex. There aren't many armies that compete against them as things stand.

You're spot on with your interpretation of my comment re success - it was against Nick's quotation.

You might be spot on with regards your analysis of GSC and their gimmicks, in which case I have sympathy because that is much the same as the Orks' issue IMO. As you say time will tell, we haven't seen the top players really bring their best lists out to play yet and the season hasn't really started proper.

I can't remember the exact quotations for Nick off hand, I remember Geoff mentioning them (I think on Chapter Tactics and his GSC codex review - but I might be wrong, he's on so many podcasts) though. You've probably heard him give an appraisal of Nick - you said you listen to Geoff quite a bit?

There's no need to bring this topic up again, if the Keler turns out not to be as strong as many (including myself) thought just be happy knowing that you were right. It's probably too early to tell in all honesty and meta changes are happening so fast it's becoming hard to keep up. People are still discussing the LVO meta like it's relevant. Or discussing Marines like they don't have bolter rules.
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





Got my first game this weekend against a GSC player. First time playing GSC at all and I lost and know I did some horrible mistakes. I would say the codex is good, but I am waiting to play more games before I'll even venture saying the word "OP".

The only thing I disliked about the GSC and imagine will be FAQ'd is the instakill psychic power(Mental Onslaught). Although it does require a lot of setup for the instakill it is rather strong considering its range is 18 inches and not limited to nearest model like most MW generating powers.

Everything else in the codex feels like can be countered with better screening.
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

Like the vast majority of 40K player on this forum or anywhere else, I am not a top level tournament player and the games I play are not at the bleeding edge of the meta.

The fact that every GC cult player I've spoken too, read about or listened to talks about the Kelermorph being an auto take unit likely points to it being undercosted for the abilities it brings.

In an ideal world all units would be equally viable and there would be no autotakes or unusable units, unfortunately there are.

This doesn't change the point of this thread which was the kelermorph is over powered for the points you pay. As many of us pointed out in the more reasoned parts of this thread, even if he is half the cost he should be that would only be a 2.5% points gain in a standard 2000pt which would have minimal to zero effect on a game but that doesn't change the fact he is incredible for his cost.

What it does show is that GW has done a bad job evaluating his cost and it would appear they have done a similarly bad job of costing various other things in the book. I don't play them but looking through the book the internal balance seems way off with various things being super cheap for their effects and then others being aimed far too high.

Not all codexs have to come out at the top line of the meta and some take a little time to settle in and for players to work them out. The Ork book came out and people cried that it was OP, then it didn't win LVO and there are now various threads saying how it should be buffed, then some new builds have risen to the surface and its started doing well again. Its like its a complex game or something ;-)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/26 09:35:17


40,000pts
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1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts 
   
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A.T. wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
They haven't had a single week where they've done better than even Tau, and being that Tau aren't even a top 3 faction,
Aside from making the obvious comment that Tau were literally the only faction ahead of the GSC at the recent big warhammer GT -
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/b3tsy4/as_requested_lvo_performance_by_faction/

If i'm reading that chart correctly the nid/gsc faction is ahead of everything except for ynnari soup, (with the tau as by far the best mono faction). In fact they seem to have the best average performance of any faction, just losing out to ynnari and knight soup for the top scores.

The Kelermorph has appeared in every GT-level GSC list i've seen so far this month, but to be fair that's not many lists. It's not a widely played faction.


You're reading that incorrectly. That is a list of the 20 MOST COMMON faction combinations, for starters, so that excludes a lot of things. Hence why Marines for example are on there twice, but Harlequins don't even appear. Secondly, even by on this chart, GSC appear once, in soup with Nids and AM, and place at #12th most successful combination, out of the 20th most popular combinations taken on the day. It's a weird chart that isn't really a great place to draw any direct conclusions of anything.



I've literally seen zero coverage on the Warhammer GT. Wasn't even aware of the results. 1750pts, Eternal War missions, and WARHAMMER WORLD boards is just a completely different game to the one we all play competitively. I am however interested in the results and the lists and can't find anyone anywhere who has cared enough to post them, where can I see them other than BCP (don't have it at atm)?



Dustin Hershaw took 2nd at the 7th Annual Barrie Bash (A 62 player major) and didn't take a Kelermorph. Pretty sure there was another placing last month too that did the same and something else in here too.


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
Secondly, even by on this chart, GSC appear once, in soup with Nids and AM, and place at #12th most successful combination, out of the 20th most popular combinations taken on the day. It's a weird chart that isn't really a great place to draw any direct conclusions of anything.
The order of the factions are based on the highest position, while the bars indicate the range of finishes and the line across the bar represents the average position.

The chart indicates that the 11 faction combinations above the GSC/soup have won more events, but that the average position of GSC/soup players has been better. As someone summarised in the link an average player is more likely to place well with a GSC/soup, but the top spot has been elusive so far. Early days I suppose.


 SHUPPET wrote:
I've literally seen zero coverage on the Warhammer GT / I am however interested in the results and the lists and can't find anyone anywhere who has cared enough to post them
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773018.page#10385478
1st place tau - tons of missiles, piranhas and drone abuse to screen a broadside/riptide firebase. Apparently got very lucky in their game against the Aeldari in the semi
2nd place GSC - Patriarch, Primus, Magus, Jackal Alphus, Abominant. 4 x Neophyte units, 2 x acolyte units. 2 sentinels, Jackals. Aberants, Kellermorph, Nexos, Clamivus. 3 mortar squads.
3rd place - Aeldari flyer spam
4th place - Smash captains, Guilliman, Tigurius, various primaris
Aeldari, Imperium, and Chaos soups round out the top 8
   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It's not obvious from the quotations that he is discussing the Kelermorph specifically at all. I was going to ask why you didn't post this in the general GSC is busted thread to be honest because it seems more relevant there. I don't think both threads boiled down to a discussion only around the Kelermorph. Obviously this thread did because of the title, but I recall many other synergies discussed in the other thread. The insta-kill any unit in the game psychic power shenanigans, the hand flamer acs, the psychic sniper, the demo charge bikes etc etc It's not particularly important though.

That's fair enough and my bad. Maybe I should have used the other thread, I just wanted to look back at the key topic, might have picked the wrong thread to bring back.


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Regarding the power of the Keler specifically, it seems to feature in many competitive lists, as shown by A.T above (and that implies that it is a competitive/very well costed choice).
I don't think this is the best measure of what's OP. It shows in less lists than the Patriach, in those lists it shows less times than the Patriach with at least one winner taking double Daddys, and has much less points spent on it than the Patriach. The army has strong units man. It's also has other aspects that detract from these strong units. I think this is fun design that gives it unique flavor. They are balanced with these good units, if you nerf the good gak you are just left with a glass cannon that has no cannon. Every Tyranid list is taking Genestealers, should they be nerfed too? Every Ultramarine list is taking Devastators, do we need to nerf them too? It's okay for some units to be staples in list archetypes.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Tau are very good at the moment. They are the top mono I think currently and definitely the top xeno dex. There aren't many armies that compete against them as things stand.

You're spot on with your interpretation of my comment re success - it was against Nick's quotation.

You might be spot on with regards your analysis of GSC and their gimmicks, in which case I have sympathy because that is much the same as the Orks' issue IMO. As you say time will tell, we haven't seen the top players really bring their best lists out to play yet and the season hasn't really started proper.

Orkz is probably a good comparison, both are army's with big strengths, pulled back down to sensibility by big weaknesses, and both armies didn't do anywhere near as good as the internet Hive Mind thought. though honestly, I think GSC are better than Orkz right now in their current state.

Sure, Tau are real good, but they aren't Aeldari / Imperium good, and I think in this game, GSC being even below Tau's level just shows that they aren't busted - simply a good choice currently (though we'll see how far they can actually be pushed against the best players in time)

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You've probably heard him give an appraisal of Nick - you said you listen to Geoff quite a bit?

I listened to him while he was leaking gak about a dex I care about every odd week, I stopped listening to them after GSC dex was leaked though. I can't say you're wrong about what you heard, but I can also say that this is definitely not the reputation I've ever witnessed Nick Rose having. And I can't really either dispute nor be convinced by your words here until I see more, is all.




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
There's no need to bring this topic up again, if the Keler turns out not to be as strong as many (including myself) thought just be happy knowing that you were right. It's probably too early to tell in all honesty and meta changes are happening so fast it's becoming hard to keep up. People are still discussing the LVO meta like it's relevant. Or discussing Marines like they don't have bolter rules.

I think if Kelermorph turns out to be a strong unit but a fair one, it should really serve as a lesson to ANYONE in this thread who said the unit needed to be nerfed, based off a dataslate. A LOT of people said the unit is going to give you a lot of ways to play around it, and probably bring the sort of offense to the table that a paperthin army like GSC will need just to play its game, and by all accounts this is pretty much exactly the case. But this isn't just a "I was right" necro, I think it's a relevant topic of discussion to look back at some VERY confident predictions that were made, and talk about where this dex and units actually stand today.

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Know this is about two months late, but

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You want me to tell you how you get 10 ppm 2W, T4 -1 to hit bikes too? Or the Ridge runner?


Having played both of these a few times now, they're both annoyances not actual threats. Ridge Runner hits on 5+ if you have to move it, if you didn't have to move it it's not firing at anything that can't immediately nuke it off the board. Bikes, for all they are, have the offense of neophytes, Acolytes for a turn if you give them demo charges. If you're against marines they're marginally more survivable than the same points in neophytes, but since they run down the table so quick they're a higher priority target.

That said, I have started winning with them, you just have to play points, and charge onto those objectives with your ambushing objective secured that probably outnumbers the defenders in the first place. Couple reserve neophyte squads to replace losses on one point or another, and if need be return a set to the shadows and drop them down with lying in wait once you chase them off the point with some acolytes. And help this all along by throwing a bunch of distractions at them across the table in the form of ridge runners, trucks and whatever else helps spread the threat so your troops can get in place.
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
I think if Kelermorph turns out to be a strong unit but a fair one, it should really serve as a lesson to ANYONE in this thread who said the unit needed to be nerfed, based off a dataslate. A LOT of people said the unit is going to give you a lot of ways to play around it, and probably bring the sort of offense to the table that a paperthin army like GSC will need just to play its game, and by all accounts this is pretty much exactly the case. But this isn't just a "I was right" necro, I think it's a relevant topic of discussion to look back at some VERY confident predictions that were made, and talk about where this dex and units actually stand today.

I much prefer discussing things with you when you're chill like this.

It will serve to a lesson to some for sure, myself included. Not likely the majority but I will take it on the chin if the Keler isn't the OPMOFO I thought it'd be. We all make mistakes and sometimes we all overreact.

Remember however, that in my totally biased and Ork-centric brain, anything "stronger" than the Ork dex is, without question, OP as all feth!
   
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A.T. wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Secondly, even by on this chart, GSC appear once, in soup with Nids and AM, and place at #12th most successful combination, out of the 20th most popular combinations taken on the day. It's a weird chart that isn't really a great place to draw any direct conclusions of anything.
The order of the factions are based on the highest position, while the bars indicate the range of finishes and the line across the bar represents the average position.

The chart indicates that the 11 faction combinations above the GSC/soup have won more events, but that the average position of GSC/soup players has been better. As someone summarised in the link an average player is more likely to place well with a GSC/soup, but the top spot has been elusive so far. Early days I suppose.


Looking at anything other than wins is not a solid measure of who is the strongest. Having a higher "average" win rate just means there is less trash players dragging it down, and with an army like GSC, that makes perfect sense that there is mostly good players on the Keyword. Until they are actually kicking ass and winning more events with those players, I don't think it's at all fair to say that those numbers put them as the #2 faction after Ynnari, placing them even above Imperium simply because there is less baddies to drag down the overall average like there is with a super popular army like Knights + Guard (who are obviously one of the best in the game right now no matter what their "average" is). And that's even if it was based on a better data set than "Top 20 popular combinations".


A.T. wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
I've literally seen zero coverage on the Warhammer GT / I am however interested in the results and the lists and can't find anyone anywhere who has cared enough to post them
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773018.page#10385478
1st place tau - tons of missiles, piranhas and drone abuse to screen a broadside/riptide firebase. Apparently got very lucky in their game against the Aeldari in the semi
2nd place GSC - Patriarch, Primus, Magus, Jackal Alphus, Abominant. 4 x Neophyte units, 2 x acolyte units. 2 sentinels, Jackals. Aberants, Kellermorph, Nexos, Clamivus. 3 mortar squads.
3rd place - Aeldari flyer spam
4th place - Smash captains, Guilliman, Tigurius, various primaris
Aeldari, Imperium, and Chaos soups round out the top 8


Thanks. Can I see the exact lists anywhere?

This is off-topic, but my reactions to those results: Not surprised to see that the Tau spammed Missiles and drones and did well at Warhammer World. That's a winning combination, and Tau are in the best shape they've been in 8th already too.

That guy took every single character in the GSC dex? lol. Surely that's not a good measure of Kelermorph being OP? He even took the Jackal Alphus and the Abominant haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
I think if Kelermorph turns out to be a strong unit but a fair one, it should really serve as a lesson to ANYONE in this thread who said the unit needed to be nerfed, based off a dataslate. A LOT of people said the unit is going to give you a lot of ways to play around it, and probably bring the sort of offense to the table that a paperthin army like GSC will need just to play its game, and by all accounts this is pretty much exactly the case. But this isn't just a "I was right" necro, I think it's a relevant topic of discussion to look back at some VERY confident predictions that were made, and talk about where this dex and units actually stand today.

I much prefer discussing things with you when you're chill like this.

It will serve to a lesson to some for sure, myself included. Not likely the majority but I will take it on the chin if the Keler isn't the OPMOFO I thought it'd be. We all make mistakes and sometimes we all overreact.

Remember however, that in my totally biased and Ork-centric brain, anything "stronger" than the Ork dex is, without question, OP as all feth!

Exactly the same to you. I got to say given our past interactions I wasn't expecting this level of chill, but maybe that's something else that we can both learn from today as well.

I'm not closed to the possibility of Keler being too much, and I also wasn't on release, though I suspected it would be fine. However, I was closed to the idea that we can recognise stuff as being busted so soon. Maybe in the most extreme cases, where you can already see how one unit can fill out and entire list, but in the case of something so small and gimmicky as Kelermorph, I mean what's worse case scenario (and this is purely hypothetical)? Say he's undercosted by like 50 pts, and then what? It gives the army a strong unit that you still probably don't want to be taking more than one of due to army and game design, and gives the army a pointed strength to make up for some very real weaknesses. I can understand a split in opinion on game design here, but I'm all for some armies having some units that are undercosted for for what they do if they are measured out in other ways - Solitaire is another obvious example of this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 10:20:21


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 SHUPPET wrote:
Thanks. Can I see the exact lists anywhere?
All I can add to the lists in the linked post is that the tau player had burst cannons and missiles on his piranhas. The event didn't collate lists so this was taken from reddit posts and similar of players and those who watched some of the games.
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
So, 3 months into the release of the codex, and GSC somehow didn't manage to dominate, or even significantly change the meta like DE or Knights were able to in half that time, so I thought I would take another look at this thread.


Knights are easy to use and capable of being added to over half the game's armies so it's little wonder there. Adepticon is the first real crack at the meta for GSC.

Do I still think GSC are going to be a problem? Not after the assassins release and the further introduction of deepstrike spreading units. And certainly not while the Castellan is on its pedestal.
   
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Yeah... my inner pedantry is saying GSC have been out for barely 6 weeks rather than 3 months and they are already placing in tournaments.

I don't know if that means they are going to meaningfully change the meta - but its hard to see why the competitive scene went "Orks are going to be big news guys!" is now justified in saying "GSC are rubbish, won't even break mid tier".

I can understand the potential view that GSC are a win big/lose big army - which might not be the best in a "you need to 6 games to win the tournament" format, its potentially not odds on to edge out those close games in the way Imperial and especially Ynnari lists are.

But I think Tau tend to be in a similar boat - and they seem to be doing great.
   
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Tyel wrote:
Yeah... my inner pedantry is saying GSC have been out for barely 6 weeks rather than 3 months and they are already placing in tournaments.

I don't know if that means they are going to meaningfully change the meta - but its hard to see why the competitive scene went "Orks are going to be big news guys!" is now justified in saying "GSC are rubbish, won't even break mid tier".

I can understand the potential view that GSC are a win big/lose big army - which might not be the best in a "you need to 6 games to win the tournament" format, its potentially not odds on to edge out those close games in the way Imperial and especially Ynnari lists are.

But I think Tau tend to be in a similar boat - and they seem to be doing great.


Probably because they learned their lesson from orks....

My prediction is that the new vanguard marines are going to be such an easy, cheap cockblock for imperial soup players to bring to shut down GSC, Orks and Smashcaptains that we won't see a whole lot of any of those and it'll just be the usual souplejerk in the top 10.

But, I may be surprised! I hope I am to be honest this meta has gotten as stale as competitive 5th at this point.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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