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Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






When every unit in your army has the Angels of Death ability then they get the benefit of Combat Doctrines and if every unit in your army has the same sub-faction they benefit from an additional ability. I can't be bothered to design benefits for every sub-faction so I imagine it could just be getting one of the relics of that sub-faction for free unless otherwise noted.

Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, Astra Cartographica, Deathwatch, Elucidian Starstriders, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum and Sisters of Silence - Imperial Agents: Add 1 Ld to units with this ability.

Adeptus Ministorum - Supreme Piety: Gain 1 Faith Point at the beginning of the game for each unit with this ability on the battlefield and not inside a Transport.

Adeptus Mechanicus and Questor Mechanicus - Grand Convocation: Gain 1 CP if your army includes a SKITARII unit, 1 CP if your army includes a CULT MECHANICUS unit and 1 CP if your army includes a QUESTOR MECHANICUS unit.

Astra Militarum - Hold the Line: A unit with this ability that is within range of an objective marker (as specified in the mission) controls the objective marker even if there are more enemy models within range of it. If an enemy unit within range of the same objective marker has a similar ability, then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of it as normal.

Blood Angels - Black Rage Unleashed: When a unit with this ability fails a Morale test it gains the Black Rage ability.

Dark Angels - The First Angels: Gain 3 CP if you have a Detachment containing only DEATHWING units with this ability, and 2 CP if you have a Detachment containing only RAVENWING units with this ability and 1 CP if you have a Detachment containing only units with this ability and no units that are DEATHWING or RAVENWING. Note that you will not get a free relic if you include more than one of the above in your army.

Questor Imperialis - Honour in Death: Gain 1 CP each time a model with this ability is reduced to 0 wounds.

Space Wolves - Wolf Focus: Add 1 to hit rolls in the first battle round for units with this ability. /s No idea what this could actually be.

Titan Legions - Unstoppable Behemoths: This model cannot be reduced below 1 wound in the first battle round and cannot be removed from the table in any way on the first battle round.

Chaos Daemons - Corrupting Touch: At the end of your Movement phase you Corrupt any Objectives you control, you will continue to control any corrupted Objectives until an enemy unit moves within 3" of the Corrupted Objective.

Chaos Knights - Rage of the Machines: Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for a model with this ability in the Fight phase, it can immediately make an extra attack against the same unit using the same weapon. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.

Heretic Astartes - Path of Chaos: Roll on the Chaos Boon table in the Stratagems section of the relevant Codex whenever a unit with this ability destroys an enemy unit. If the unit contains a Champion then that model benefits from the Stratagem, if the unit contains more than one model and does not contain a Champion it does not benefit from this ability.

Heretic Legions and Renegade Chapters - None.

Heretic Titan Legions - Thundering Behemoths: This model cannot be reduced below 1 wound in the first battle round and cannot be removed from the table in any way on the first battle round.

Khorne - Tides of Blood: At the end of your opponent's Movement phase, any unit on the table that did not disembark or arrive on the table this turn and also did not move closer to the closest unit you control suffers 1 Mortal Wound.

Tzeentch - Changing Fatescape: Roll a D6 each time your opponent uses a Stratagem, on a D6 roll of 5+ your opponent loses 1 CP.

Nurgle - Festering Mire: Subtract 1 from the Movement characteristic of enemy units.

Slaanesh - Pheromonal Warpvents: Enemy units must re-roll successful hit rolls when firing Overwatch.

Chaos Unbound - Hatred Unbound: Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack with a ranged weapon made by a model in this unit, that hit roll succeeds regardless of any modifiers. In addition, immediately make an additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.

Renegades and Heretics - In Service of Higher Powers: A unit with this ability that is within range of an objective marker (as specified in the mission) controls the objective marker even if there are more enemy models within range of it. If an enemy unit within range of the same objective marker has a similar ability, then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of it as normal. In addition, they gain the Fanatic ability.

Genestealer Cults - Preparations Complete: Before the battle begins you may move each Blip up to 6" within your deployment zone, the Blip is not revealed if you choose to do so.

Harlequins - Webway Ghosts: Subtract 1 from hit rolls in the Fight phase against units with this ability.

Necrons - Phase Out: When models flee from a Necron unit with this ability you may select slain models to flee from that Necron unit.

Tyranids - Infest and Subjugate: At the start of each turn, place a Tyrannify Counter on a piece of terrain. Tyranid units gaining the benefit of cover that are in cover with a Tyrannify Counter add an additional +1 to their saving throws. Enemy units cannot gain cover if they are in cover with two or more Tyrannify Counters.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/09/11 17:50:51


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Chaos Space Marines - None.


you're going to have to justify this.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some of the balance on those suggestions are horribly out or it's not clear what you intending as 1 additional ld on units with ld 9/10 vrs 6CP for free is kinda bonkers.
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission






Not sure what the upcoming codex will be like for Sisters. At this point you couldn't get me to bother putting units on foot just to get a free faith point. No thanks.

Sisters of Battle
Genestealer Cults
Daemons lots of Daemons
Daughters of Khaine
Bretonnians

 
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






BrianDavion wrote:
Chaos Space Marines - None.


you're going to have to justify this.

What's GW's justification? CSM are a point extra and lack Combat Doctrines, I figure GW in their infinite wisdom know something the rest of us don't since they printed CSM 2.0 just recently and didn't even bother giving their vehicles Tactics. /s It's just a joke because CSM get the short end of the stick all the time, if you have an idea for what they could get then I'd like to hear it. Same with all the other factions I haven't done. Also, alternative options for the ones I made are welcome as well.

Ice_can wrote:
Some of the balance on those suggestions are horribly out or it's not clear what you intending as 1 additional ld on units with ld 9/10 vrs 6CP for free is kinda bonkers.

It's not meant to be a 1-1 buff on all factions. I initially just wanted the 1 ld to be for Custodes, but I couldn't think of anything the other Imperial Agents so they just kind of got shoved in there. I think the Agents have a lot more options in terms of units compared to DA. I don't know if the DA buff is too much, but they are one of the worst factions in the game in terms of tournament stats and Doctrines is quite valuable especially when you take into account that first founding chapters get an extra buff while DA would get the 1-6 CP and a Relic if they went pure DW/RW/Green Wing. I went ahead and nerfed it a little bit to make it more difficult to obtain.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Not sure what the upcoming codex will be like for Sisters. At this point you couldn't get me to bother putting units on foot just to get a free faith point. No thanks.

You'd still get faith points for all your Rhinos, Immolators and Exorcists. MSU foot sisters would be an option, but I don't really know what you'd need 25 faith points for, if you wanted to go that route I think you deserve infinite faith points.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/09/08 13:38:36


 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 vict0988 wrote:
...Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, Astra Cartographica, Deathwatch, Elucidian Starstriders, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum and Sisters of Silence - Imperial Agents: Add 1 Ld to units with this ability...


I have no words to express how unbelievably, completely, staggeringly useless this is.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I like the idea of giving everyone a fluffy bonus rule for not souping, but I'm not fond of most of the specific suggestions you've posted.

 vict0988 wrote:

Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, Astra Cartographica, Deathwatch, Elucidian Starstriders, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum and Sisters of Silence - Imperial Agents: Add 1 Ld to units with this ability.

I feel that most of these are really meant to be splashed in as allies and thus don't necessarily need a monofaction bonus. Sororitas benefit from the Ministrorum rules, so they're covered. GK will probably be getting some sort of attention along with DA, SW, DW, and BA, but they could also use a codex overhaul that would probably impact what their Doctrines ought to look like. Monocustodes maybe just need bonus CP.


Adeptus Ministorum - Supreme Piety: Gain 1 Faith Point at the beginning of the game for each unit with this ability on the battlefield and not inside a Transport.

This feels weird. Bonus Faith Points, but not if you're in a transport? I'm not sure what the fluff justification for sisters being less faithful if they don't wait to get mortared on turn 1 before hopping in a transport is. Also, this means that units that don't normally contribute faith points suddenly do (ecclesiarchal battle conclave units).

If you wanted something sorta kinda similar to Combat Doctrines, you could do:
Battle Hymns:
If your army consists entirely of units with the Adeptus Ministrorum keyword, you may benefit from one of the following rules at the start of each game round.
* Hymn of Piety: Gain a faith point.
* Hymn of Service: Add 1 to faith tests (or whatever they're called) for the rest of the round.
* Hymn of Victory: Grant obsec to all models in your army for the rest of the round.


Adeptus Mechanicus and Questor Mechanicus - Grand Convocation: Gain 1 CP if your army includes a SKITARII unit, 1 CP if your army includes a CULT MECHANICUS unit and 1 CP if your army includes a QUESTOR MECHANICUS unit.

I dislike that this one kind of discourages a bunch of army builds by encouraging you to take specific units. This rule basically makes it so that any all-mechanicus army is cheating itself out of a CP if it doesn't include at least one of each of the above CP.

Personally, I'd kind of like to see a mechanic reminiscent of the old skitarii buffs and evocative of the current kastellan robot protocols. This is probably a terrible specific suggestion, but maybe something like:

Battle Protocols:
If your army consists entirely of units with the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, you may benefit from one of the following rules each game round. Select one of the following protocols at the start of the first game round. You may change which of the following benefits you receive at the start of a game round by rolling 2d6. If the result is lower than the highest Leadership value in your army, select a different benefit.
* Algorithmic Firing Solution: Select a point on the battlefield at the start of each of your shooting phase. Ranged attacks made against units within 6" of that point add +1 to their to-hit rolls for the rest of the phase.
* Melee Optimization Subroutines: All models in your army suffer a -1 to ranged to-hit rolls but add +1 to melee to-hit rolls.
* Holdout Maintenance: Models with this rule add +2 to their armor saves while in cover rather than +1 against attacks made from more than 12" away.


Blood Angels - Black Rage Unleashed: When a unit with this ability fails a Morale test it gains the Black Rage ability.

I like this one. To clarify, do you still suffer losses from the morale test? The only thing I'm iffy on about this is that it creates yet another reason to NOT play leadership debuffing "freakshow" lists.


Chaos Daemons - Warp Storm: Gain D6 CP at the start of the game, if you roll a 1 you lose all your CP, this dice roll cannot be re-rolled.

Can't really see the game ever being improved by one player losing all their CP before the game starts. It just makes the game arbitrarily more one-sided. I'm also not sure that just starting the game off with 2-6 extra CP just because is all that interesting. Especially given that daemon armies have cheap enough troops to generate a decent amount of CP. Not sure what I'd do for daemons, but probably not this.

Maybe let them choose between a streamlined version of the 7th edition warp storm table (something easier/quicker to resolve) and series of god-specific mechanics? So at the start of the game, you can either choose to have the warp storm table kick in at the start of each game round OR you can gain Khorne Daemonkin style blood tithe points when your Khorne units kill/die OR you can do an Epidemeus-esque Nurgle mechanic, etc.


Chaos Knights - Rage of the Machines: Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for a model with this ability in the Fight phase, it can immediately make an extra attack against the same unit using the same weapon. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.

Seems like this disproportionately benefits melee knights (who can get an absurd number of attacks) over other builds. If the goal is to reward a player for playing a single faction, just granting more CP to exclusively Chaos Knight armies seems like a reasonable way to go.


Chaos Space Marines - None.

Lol? I get that you're annoyed that loyalists got new shiny rules a couple of months after CSM 2.0, but that shouldn't prevent CSM from getting something cool. Just giving them Combat Doctrines would work but seems unfluffy. Maybe something to let you play up common CSM themes? Cheaper/easier access to the mutation strat. Bonuses to daemon summoning. Maybe something god-specific?


Dark Angels - The First Angels: Gain 3 CP if you have a Detachment containing only DEATHWING units with this ability, and 2 CP if you have a Detachment containing only RAVENWING units with this ability and 1 CP if you have a Detachment containing only units with this ability and no units that are DEATHWING or RAVENWING. Note that you will not get a free relic if you include more than one of the above in your army.

Same issue here as with the mechanicus. You're basically missing out if you don't field deathwing, ravenwing, and greenwing. Compare this to the SM Doctrines that let you field any (astartes) units you want without missing out. By contrast, this punishes you for not fielding certain units.


Harlequins - Webway Ghosts: Subtract 1 from hit rolls in the Fight phase against units with this ability.

Fluffy and useful, but we already have access to a lot of melee to-hit penalties and invul boosts. I'd rather see either...
A.) Something reminiscent of oldschool Veil of Tears that made us untargetable at a range. Maybe give us infiltrate to represent the clowns going unnoticed until they've closed the gap? Or...
B.) Give us saedath. Basically combat doctrines that rotate through a series of benefits corresponding to the mythic story being performed. Choose the saedath at the start of deployment.


Necrons - Phase Out: When models flee from a unit with this ability you may select slain models to flee from that unit.

To clarify, this just makes it so that the necron player decides which of his opponent's models flea in the morale phase? You don't really flee "from" anything in a mechanical sense in the morale phase, and you don't typically lose models for falling back in the movement phase.

That said, not sure how this represents Phase Out. I could see this representing a Night Lords style rule where they pick off key models while their foe is in disarray. I could see this representing disciplined sniper squads picking out key enemies when they shoot. I don't see how this corresponds to a rule that used to make the necron army run away if they lost too many NECRON models.

   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






Wyldhunt wrote:
I like the idea of giving everyone a fluffy bonus rule for not souping, but I'm not fond of most of the specific suggestions you've posted.

I totally get that, thanks for helping out and providing ideas.

 vict0988 wrote:

Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, Astra Cartographica, Deathwatch, Elucidian Starstriders, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum and Sisters of Silence - Imperial Agents: Add 1 Ld to units with this ability.

I feel that most of these are really meant to be splashed in as allies and thus don't necessarily need a monofaction bonus. Sororitas benefit from the Ministrorum rules, so they're covered. GK will probably be getting some sort of attention along with DA, SW, DW, and BA, but they could also use a codex overhaul that would probably impact what their Doctrines ought to look like. Monocustodes maybe just need bonus CP.

So this bonus would just be the "codex" bonus, you'd also get an additional bonus for playing only Deathwatch or only Adeptus Custodes. I feel like it makes sense for Deathwatch or GK to gain a benefit for not allying with anything but Inquisition since they are the military arm of one of the Ordos. The SoB are a bit complicated, but from what I gather they are the military arm of the eclesiarchy and they have some kind of deal with the Ordo Hereticus so they ally with them a lot as well. I wanted to represent both versions here.

Adeptus Ministorum - Supreme Piety: Gain 1 Faith Point at the beginning of the game for each unit with this ability on the battlefield and not inside a Transport.

This feels weird. Bonus Faith Points, but not if you're in a transport? I'm not sure what the fluff justification for sisters being less faithful if they don't wait to get mortared on turn 1 before hopping in a transport is. Also, this means that units that don't normally contribute faith points suddenly do (ecclesiarchal battle conclave units).

If you wanted something sorta kinda similar to Combat Doctrines, you could do:
Battle Hymns:
If your army consists entirely of units with the Adeptus Ministrorum keyword, you may benefit from one of the following rules at the start of each game round.
* Hymn of Piety: Gain a faith point.
* Hymn of Service: Add 1 to faith tests (or whatever they're called) for the rest of the round.
* Hymn of Victory: Grant obsec to all models in your army for the rest of the round.

I was thinking the exact mechanics didn't matter too much, I think you'd be hard pressed to make an ecclesiarchal army that didn't have a lot of SoB. It absolutely requires a high level of faith to go into battle without an armoured transport, you already have Hymns with the priests and I don't really think that all the Ecclesiarchal troops should go singing into battle.

Adeptus Mechanicus and Questor Mechanicus - Grand Convocation: Gain 1 CP if your army includes a SKITARII unit, 1 CP if your army includes a CULT MECHANICUS unit and 1 CP if your army includes a QUESTOR MECHANICUS unit.

I dislike that this one kind of discourages a bunch of army builds by encouraging you to take specific units. This rule basically makes it so that any all-mechanicus army is cheating itself out of a CP if it doesn't include at least one of each of the above CP.

Personally, I'd kind of like to see a mechanic reminiscent of the old skitarii buffs and evocative of the current kastellan robot protocols. This is probably a terrible specific suggestion, but maybe something like:

Battle Protocols:
If your army consists entirely of units with the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, you may benefit from one of the following rules each game round. Select one of the following protocols at the start of the first game round. You may change which of the following benefits you receive at the start of a game round by rolling 2d6. If the result is lower than the highest Leadership value in your army, select a different benefit.
* Algorithmic Firing Solution: Select a point on the battlefield at the start of each of your shooting phase. Ranged attacks made against units within 6" of that point add +1 to their to-hit rolls for the rest of the phase.
* Melee Optimization Subroutines: All models in your army suffer a -1 to ranged to-hit rolls but add +1 to melee to-hit rolls.
* Holdout Maintenance: Models with this rule add +2 to their armor saves while in cover rather than +1 against attacks made from more than 12" away.

7th ed AdMech got bonuses for featuring units from at least two codices I think, besides you're getting a free relic or some other bonus if you select only one subfaction. These factions are already pretty strong, there isn't room for free wargear or canticles for knights as a benfit for not souping harder, this is already soup. Just slightly less soupy soup.


Blood Angels - Black Rage Unleashed: When a unit with this ability fails a Morale test it gains the Black Rage ability.

I like this one. To clarify, do you still suffer losses from the morale test? The only thing I'm iffy on about this is that it creates yet another reason to NOT play leadership debuffing "freakshow" lists.

The intention was for it to kick in after models have fled, I'm not exactly sure how to rework it. Again, one of the things were I wanted to watch out to not make something OP. I figure if you lose 5 Primaris Marines to shooting and then another 1 Marine to Morale you'll only have 4 left so it won't be too OP. This is a rule I've wanted BA to have for a couple of editions, probably why it's one of the less gak ones.


Chaos Daemons - Warp Storm: Gain D6 CP at the start of the game, if you roll a 1 you lose all your CP, this dice roll cannot be re-rolled.

Can't really see the game ever being improved by one player losing all their CP before the game starts. It just makes the game arbitrarily more one-sided. I'm also not sure that just starting the game off with 2-6 extra CP just because is all that interesting. Especially given that daemon armies have cheap enough troops to generate a decent amount of CP. Not sure what I'd do for daemons, but probably not this.

Maybe let them choose between a streamlined version of the 7th edition warp storm table (something easier/quicker to resolve) and series of god-specific mechanics? So at the start of the game, you can either choose to have the warp storm table kick in at the start of each game round OR you can gain Khorne Daemonkin style blood tithe points when your Khorne units kill/die OR you can do an Epidemeus-esque Nurgle mechanic, etc.

I want some board-affecting rules for these less than just making the Daemons themselves stronger, I was thinking Nurgle could give all enemies -1 M. I'm not sure how to do Warp Storm without making it a chore, making it a once per game thing ensures that it's not something you have to bother with every turn, on the other hand, that's an important dice roll. How much room mono-Daemons have for buffs is hard to say, they are having a lot of success as parts of Chaos soup, but pretty much no success as a mono faction from what I remember, that might just be due to all the strong Daemon players souping at least a little bit for that extra 2-10% extra win rate.


Chaos Space Marines - None.

Lol? I get that you're annoyed that loyalists got new shiny rules a couple of months after CSM 2.0, but that shouldn't prevent CSM from getting something cool. Just giving them Combat Doctrines would work but seems unfluffy. Maybe something to let you play up common CSM themes? Cheaper/easier access to the mutation strat. Bonuses to daemon summoning. Maybe something god-specific?

I don't think Combat Doctrines was a good idea, I'd rather punish soup than buff mono-codex armies. We'll see if they become obnoxiously prevalent in competitive, I still haven't played against the new codex. Mostly I'm disappointed with GW not fixing the CSM codex when they updated it, IE: nerf AL, give vehicle Traits and balance pts.


Necrons - Phase Out: When models flee from a unit with this ability you may select slain models to flee from that unit.

To clarify, this just makes it so that the necron player decides which of his opponent's models flea in the morale phase? You don't really flee "from" anything in a mechanical sense in the morale phase, and you don't typically lose models for falling back in the movement phase.

That said, not sure how this represents Phase Out. I could see this representing a Night Lords style rule where they pick off key models while their foe is in disarray. I could see this representing disciplined sniper squads picking out key enemies when they shoot. I don't see how this corresponds to a rule that used to make the necron army run away if they lost too many NECRON models.

This has nothing to do with enemy units. Let's say I have 20 Necron Warriors, 4 are slain I pass morale. Now I have 4 slain models and 0 fled models. At the start of my next turn I reanimate 2 of those 4 slain models so I'm back to 18. Now you slay 12 Necron Warriors I fail my leadership test by 6 so 6 models flee, instead of removing the remaining 6 models on the battlefield, 6 of the 14 slain Necrons flee so I now have 8 slain Necrons and 6 fled Necrons. Now I reanimate 4 of those 8 slain Necrons because the fled Necrons cannot reanimate. The purpose of this rule is to make Necrons less susceptible to a big blowout turn where you not only lose models to morale, but also miss the chance to reanimate any models in the unit. Now instead you'll lose the ability to ever reanimate some models, but the unit as a whole won't flee and you'll still get to reanimate some models. This represents Necrons having inbuilt teleporters that bring them back to their tomb world should they need more extensive repairs than their in-built self-repair mechanisms can handle on the battlefield.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






So this bonus would just be the "codex" bonus, you'd also get an additional bonus for playing only Deathwatch or only Adeptus Custodes. I feel like it makes sense for Deathwatch or GK to gain a benefit for not allying with anything but Inquisition since they are the military arm of one of the Ordos.

Ah. +1 Ld is pretty darn minor for most marine units. Like, minor enough that it might not be worth giving them the bonus at all purely so they have one fewer modifiers to their datasheets to track. If the plan is to give more substantial mono-faction benefits to DW, GK, and AC, I'd have to see those benefits to comment on them.

I feel like the links between the inquisition and GK/DW/SoB should probably be represented by just including an Inquisitor datasheet in each of the 'dexes.


I was thinking the exact mechanics didn't matter too much, I think you'd be hard pressed to make an ecclesiarchal army that didn't have a lot of SoB. It absolutely requires a high level of faith to go into battle without an armoured transport, you already have Hymns with the priests and I don't really think that all the Ecclesiarchal troops should go singing into battle.

Non-sororitas ministrorum units are basically like non-regiment units in an IG army. Theoretically you can make an army of all abhumans or all battle conclaves, but that's probably not the presupposition. You can more or less treat Ministrorum as "sister" units even if they're not ORDER units. Especially since, iirc, ONLY sororitas units can actually use Faith Points.

Forcing models to start the battle outside of their transports to receive a mechanical benefit is just kind of gamey and weird. It's strange that deepstrikers like seraphim are actively punished for deepstriking. It's strange that you're encouraged to have your mechanized cavalry hop out of their vehicles for a couple of seconds at the start of each fight before immediately hopping right back into the transports. The rule as you've proposed it encourages very specific builds, discourages the use of built-in abilities (like deepstrike), and encourages weird and arguably unfluffy behavior.

If the goal is to reward Ministrorum armies with more faith points for playing mono-faction, then just do that. One of my hymns does that, and the others provide some additional options for the sake of variety (so that not-souping isn't a simple question of whether or not you need the faith points). I'm not married to my hymn mechanics or to calling them hymns. Sisters totally do seem to do a lot of mid-combat singing, but you can call them "Prayers" or "Blessings" or whatever.



7th ed AdMech got bonuses for featuring units from at least two codices I think, besides you're getting a free relic or some other bonus if you select only one subfaction. These factions are already pretty strong, there isn't room for free wargear or canticles for knights as a benfit for not souping harder, this is already soup. Just slightly less soupy soup.

Fair point about mechanicus already being fairly powerful. In theory, the reward for NOT souping should be roughly equivalent to the advantage of souping. Although cult mechanicus and skitaari really should have been a single book in 7th edition; they're more like an improperly split faction than actual distinct factions.

I don't recall 7th ed admech directly rewarding you for taking units from multiple books. The non-skitarri benefits got stronger if you took a bunch of non-skitarii mechanicus units (so actively discouraged spending points on units from more than one book). There were powerful formations like the War Convocation that required units from multiple books, but that's just how formations worked. Actually, that's a great thing to touch on. One of the things people disliked about formations was that it felt like they built your army for you by forcing you to field certain units. Functionally punishing me for not including a knight in my mechanicus or my all-skitaari army is kind of a variation on that same issue.

But as for specific bonuses, I don't know. Something less powerful than what I proposed is perfectly fine. I'm just spitballing.




The intention was for it to kick in after models have fled, I'm not exactly sure how to rework it. Again, one of the things were I wanted to watch out to not make something OP. I figure if you lose 5 Primaris Marines to shooting and then another 1 Marine to Morale you'll only have 4 left so it won't be too OP. This is a rule I've wanted BA to have for a couple of editions, probably why it's one of the less gak ones.

I know one of our local BA players' main pet peeves is that death company can flee at all. It might not be OP to functionally make mono BA immune to morale. This would make it so that MSU squads (i.e. the way you want to field most marine units) still have a chance of benefitting from this rule. Seems fluffy. Killing marines with morale usually isn't a go-to strategy as-is. Probably fine.


I want some board-affecting rules for these less than just making the Daemons themselves stronger, I was thinking Nurgle could give all enemies -1 M. I'm not sure how to do Warp Storm without making it a chore, making it a once per game thing ensures that it's not something you have to bother with every turn, on the other hand, that's an important dice roll. How much room mono-Daemons have for buffs is hard to say, they are having a lot of success as parts of Chaos soup, but pretty much no success as a mono faction from what I remember, that might just be due to all the strong Daemon players souping at least a little bit for that extra 2-10% extra win rate.

Board-wide effects are fine as a high concept. Maybe bring back some version of corrupted objectives from 7th edition (basically, an objective remains controlled even after daemons leave it until an enemy stands on it). Maybe let nurgle summon some feculant gnarlmaws. Maybe let khorne gain bloodtithe points. Lots of options. THis could be a thread unto itself.


I don't think Combat Doctrines was a good idea, I'd rather punish soup than buff mono-codex armies. We'll see if they become obnoxiously prevalent in competitive, I still haven't played against the new codex. Mostly I'm disappointed with GW not fixing the CSM codex when they updated it, IE: nerf AL, give vehicle Traits and balance pts.

Agree to disagree. I like soup just fine. Some factions really depend on soup to see play at all. All the punishments for soup lists I've seen basically just punish soup lists until they're non-competitive or take away CP in ways that make many allied in factions non-viable. Rewarding players for sticking to a single army creates room for additional fluffy rules. Basically, rewarding monofaction lifts everyone up. Punishing soup just drags a lot of armies down.

But yeah. I get the CSM codex envy, but that's no reason to not give them doctrines if we're giving doctrines to everyone else.


This has nothing to do with enemy units. Let's say I have 20 Necron Warriors, 4 are slain I pass morale. Now I have 4 slain models and 0 fled models. At the start of my next turn I reanimate 2 of those 4 slain models so I'm back to 18. Now you slay 12 Necron Warriors I fail my leadership test by 6 so 6 models flee, instead of removing the remaining 6 models on the battlefield, 6 of the 14 slain Necrons flee so I now have 8 slain Necrons and 6 fled Necrons. Now I reanimate 4 of those 8 slain Necrons because the fled Necrons cannot reanimate. The purpose of this rule is to make Necrons less susceptible to a big blowout turn where you not only lose models to morale, but also miss the chance to reanimate any models in the unit. Now instead you'll lose the ability to ever reanimate some models, but the unit as a whole won't flee and you'll still get to reanimate some models. This represents Necrons having inbuilt teleporters that bring them back to their tomb world should they need more extensive repairs than their in-built self-repair mechanisms can handle on the battlefield.

Ooooh. Okay. The wording of "flees from this unit" threw me off. That suggestion seems useful, but I'd make the argument that overwhelming 'cron blobs is a desirable form of counterplay. Acknowledging that Reanimation Protocols has issues this edition, making warrior blobs semi-immune to leadership seems like it risks turning 'cron games into a monotonous slog. A more ideal solution is probably to fix RP and THEN figure out a Combat Doctrine for them.

Also, necrons can only ally with themselves. So if the idea is to give them a doctrine as a reward for sticking to a single dynasty, then their doctrine should maybe be based on the dynasty you stuck with. More space for fluffy rules and all that jazz.
   
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Chaos could have some interesting ones for being mono-god, mono-faction, and potentially both. Each god trait would need to be relatively tame since it can be double dipped by both daemons and CSM. An army with all 4 marks in each detachment could get something too. It would work something like this:

"Too angry to die": Khorne-only aligned armies remove casualties from the fight phase only after all attacks have been resolved in the fight phase.
"Warp-Hardened Veterans" CSM-only armies may use the Command Reroll Strategem twice per phase.

So a Pure Khorne CSM army would get both. I have no clue what the traits themselves would need to be for balance, but the concept should be the same. It would also make it so CSM + Matching Daemons/R&H get some perk besides color coordination.
   
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You'd still get faith points for all your Rhinos, Immolators and Exorcists. MSU foot sisters would be an option, but I don't really know what you'd need 25 faith points for, if you wanted to go that route I think you deserve infinite faith points.


Yeah, no thx. I think the point you are missing is that a Sisters army doesn't get much return from AoF, you also can only spend one a phase so you couldnt use them all anyways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 11:40:45


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Right behind you.

 dracpanzer wrote:

Yeah, no thx. I think the point you are missing is that a Sisters army doesn't get much return from AoF, you also can only spend one a phase so you couldnt use them all anyways.

Welcome to having to attempt to explain Orders to people who just think the mechanic is "OP".
   
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 DominayTrix wrote:
Chaos could have some interesting ones for being mono-god, mono-faction, and potentially both. Each god trait would need to be relatively tame since it can be double dipped by both daemons and CSM. An army with all 4 marks in each detachment could get something too. It would work something like this:

"Too angry to die": Khorne-only aligned armies remove casualties from the fight phase only after all attacks have been resolved in the fight phase.
"Warp-Hardened Veterans" CSM-only armies may use the Command Reroll Strategem twice per phase.

So a Pure Khorne CSM army would get both. I have no clue what the traits themselves would need to be for balance, but the concept should be the same. It would also make it so CSM + Matching Daemons/R&H get some perk besides color coordination.


Oh god this please! Or maybe have it where you pick one of the options? But I'd love a reason to run my Khorne Daemonkin or Thousand sons + Tzeentch mono Daemons!
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 dracpanzer wrote:

Yeah, no thx. I think the point you are missing is that a Sisters army doesn't get much return from AoF, you also can only spend one a phase so you couldnt use them all anyways.

Welcome to having to attempt to explain Orders to people who just think the mechanic is "OP".

You're going to have to explain this one to me. How is a character doubling the firepower of units worth 2,67 times his cost fair? You are getting 80 pts worth of shooting for 30 pts. Alternatively, you can automatically warptime one of your units, no roll required, no chance of failure. How is this fair compared to what other factions get? My problems are only with M!M!M! and FRF!SRF! They have never been this good in previous editions, just suddenly they get "simplified" into being massively more powerful. The Company Commander could go up 50% in pts cost tomorrow and I believe he'd still be in some lists. There's also just the whole problem of it not making any sense that a Company Commander would have this much effect on how fast an Infantry Squad runs, they already have a Sergeant in their squad telling them to run as fast as possible to get to an objective.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 dracpanzer wrote:

Yeah, no thx. I think the point you are missing is that a Sisters army doesn't get much return from AoF, you also can only spend one a phase so you couldnt use them all anyways.

Welcome to having to attempt to explain Orders to people who just think the mechanic is "OP".


AoF and the mechanics for them are in no way equal to AM Orders.

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i like how no FW index list shows up, just as consitent as GW

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Not Online!!! wrote:
i like how no FW index list shows up, just as consitent as GW

Eh, what? Renegades and Heretics get the same thing as Astra Militarum and I haven't made any suggestions for Craftworlds, Drukhari or Orks. I'd also like to see some suggestions for Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Salamanders.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
i like how no FW index list shows up, just as consitent as GW

Eh, what? Renegades and Heretics get the same thing as Astra Militarum and I haven't made any suggestions for Craftworlds, Drukhari or Orks. I'd also like to see some suggestions for Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Salamanders.


Because WE are astra militarum?

Also ObSec is worthless. For renegades atleast in mono fashion, because you are not going through my screen.

The issue is with the effectiveness of the units themselves.
Which are a grot but pay guard prices.
Infact even the nerfed to gak conscripts perform better then r&h units at the same price.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/09 17:29:34


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Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
i like how no FW index list shows up, just as consitent as GW

Eh, what? Renegades and Heretics get the same thing as Astra Militarum and I haven't made any suggestions for Craftworlds, Drukhari or Orks. I'd also like to see some suggestions for Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Salamanders.


Because WE are astra militarum?

What does WE stand for?
Also ObSec is worthless. For renegades atleast in mono faction, because you are not going through my screen.

I don't think it's entirely worthless, what kind of a rule do you think would best represent them? It's not just about holding on to the ones in your deployment zone which you may very well hold on to with no problems, but what about the ones in enemy deployment zones, needing one model instead of 11 could be meaningful once in a while. RnH definitely need a lot of help to be viable as a mono-faction and I think there is a place for taking faction power into account when suggesting these rules, but you'd need something really big to make mono-faction RnH top tier if I am not mistaken.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
i like how no FW index list shows up, just as consitent as GW

Eh, what? Renegades and Heretics get the same thing as Astra Militarum and I haven't made any suggestions for Craftworlds, Drukhari or Orks. I'd also like to see some suggestions for Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Salamanders.


Because WE are astra militarum?

What does WE stand for?
Also ObSec is worthless. For renegades atleast in mono faction, because you are not going through my screen.

I don't think it's entirely worthless, what kind of a rule do you think would best represent them? It's not just about holding on to the ones in your deployment zone which you may very well hold on to with no problems, but what about the ones in enemy deployment zones, needing one model instead of 11 could be meaningful once in a while. RnH definitely need a lot of help to be viable as a mono-faction and I think there is a place for taking faction power into account when suggesting these rules, but you'd need something really big to make mono-faction RnH top tier if I am not mistaken.


You don't need to go top Tier.

You could go for that :
Warlords army, an r&h army not accompanied by their daemon overlords or marine masters will learn to work on their own.

All r&h units gain the following:
fanatic, (same as allready in the index)

(mutants, Militia, MIlitia Heavy weapons teams, gain this)
Militia Training ( improves ws, bs and SV value by 1. To a max of bs /ws 3+ SV 4+.


Edit: to propperly explain.
Your general R&H body is ws/bs 5+ Sv6. for 4 pts, with a moreale averaging out at 5.5 but can be as low as 3 and max 9.
Veteran equivalents are 6 pts aswell. and don't profit really from the additional boos.

In essence the main issue is that the units are overpriced by 25%, for an army that is reliant on it's infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 18:19:50


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These Combat Doctrines feel pretty bland. Also, I think you're missing that giving Combat Doctrine-type stuff to Heretic Astartes would help eliminate soup rather than support it for the same reason that every pure Marine player is now gushing over their new codex! Combat Doctrine-type stuff, and the sub-faction "buff one of the doctrines" type stuff is really a great way for them to reward playing fluffy, and honestly is what GW said originally they'd do.

Here are some of my takes:

Orks/Necrons/T'au: None. Why? You're already forced into being a mono-faction by simply being one of these. HOWEVER, I would want to see further buffs based on being mono-klan/dynasty/sept. That's for a different post though I'm afraid.

Tyranids: At the start of each turn, place a Tyrannify Counter on a piece of terrain. Tyranid units gaining the benefit of cover that are in cover with a Tyrannify Counter add an additional +1 to their saving throws. Enemy units cannot gain cover if they are in cover with a Tyrannify Counter. (Further stratagem benefits would either be based on how many terrain pieces are tyrannified, give other benefits for being near tyrannified terrain, or add additional tyrannify counters)

Genestealer Cult: If you go first and your entire army is deployed using Cult Ambush, your may move your Blips up to 6", including out of your deployment zone, and may choose not to reveal the Blip when you do so. If you do so, you only reveal the Blips at the end of your opponent's Movement phase. When revealing Blips this way, with the exception of the first model placed, no other model in the unit may be deployed closer to your opponent's units than any other previously deployment model from the unit. If you go second, and your entire army is deployed using Cult Ambush, you may choose not to reveal your Blips until the start of your Movement phase. Blips not revealed this way cannot be shot or assaulted.

Heretic Astartes: Turn 1; units with Mark of Chaos Undivided may reroll one roll of any type during each phase this turn. Turn 2; roll a d6 whenever a model with the Mark of Slaanesh dies this turn, on a 5+ they get to shoot as if it were the shooting phase or make a close combat attack as if it were the fight phase, Turn 3; units with the Mark of Khorne double their attacks characteristic for the duration of this turn, Turn 4; return each damaged model with the Mark of Nurgle to its original number of starting wounds, then return d6 previously slain models to each unit with fewer than its starting number of models, Turn 5; you may choose the dice values for psychic powers manifested by models with the Mark of Tzeentch this turn. Turn 6; the bonuses for each turn's Mark apply this turn as well as the Mark of Chaos Ascendant takes hold.

Chaos Daemons: (same thing as Heretic Astartes, but it only works if you're mono-Daemon 'dex).


I don't really play any other force heavily, so I don't think I'm in a position to comment on them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/09 18:13:56


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
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Right behind you.

 vict0988 wrote:

You're going to have to explain this one to me. How is a character doubling the firepower of units worth 2,67 times his cost fair? You are getting 80 pts worth of shooting for 30 pts.

An Infantry Squad or Veteran Squad(the two that can guaranteed get an Order from a <Regiment> Officer) are starting off a Lasgun down thanks to the Sergeant's mere presence(which is mandatory).

Just so we're clear. You're never really "doubling" the firepower of the unit. And the effectiveness goes down the more upgrades a squad gets, which is just stupid in and of itself.
Because FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns.

Alternatively, you can automatically warptime one of your units, no roll required, no chance of failure.

Well, unless it's being issued to Conscripts, who have the Raw Recruits rule literally requiring you to roll for an automatic buff.

Or if you FRFSRF'd the unit in question.
How is this fair compared to what other factions get?

How many other factions have huge chunks of their army that can't benefit from a core HQ ability?
If it doesn't have <Regiment>, it can't receive Orders from a <Regiment> Officer.
If it isn't Infantry, it can't receive Orders.

Scions are the exception to the rule, requiring a Tempestor Prime to be able to get issued Orders.
My problems are only with M!M!M! and FRF!SRF! They have never been this good in previous editions, just suddenly they get "simplified" into being massively more powerful.

Not really. All that happened is you can't laugh off Lasguns anymore.
M^3 does need to be adjusted, but FRFSRF is fine as is. There is only one "purely Lasgun" unit, and that's the Conscript Squad--which has a 50/50 shot of failing the Order.

And frankly? The range on Orders is pathetic now. Even with Vox-Casters which, mind you, need to be paid for and require both a Vox-Caster near the issuing Officer and in the unit receiving the Order.

And that further restricts the type of unit receiving said Orders, as there are four(technically five I guess?) units in the Guard which can take Voxes:
-Command Squads, both normal and Tempestus
-Infantry Squads
-Veteran Squads
-Scion Squads
The Company Commander could go up 50% in pts cost tomorrow and I believe he'd still be in some lists.

Nostradamus here! What else are people going to run?
-Commissars can't issue Orders.
-Primaris Psykers can't issue Orders.
-Tempestor Primes can only issue Orders to Scions.
-Tank Commanders can only issue Orders to Leman Russ

So please, Nostradamus, enlighten us lowly Guard players as to what else might be ran as an HQ if the Company Commander went up in points.

There's also just the whole problem of it not making any sense that a Company Commander would have this much effect on how fast an Infantry Squad runs

Does it really make sense for you to be standing next to a shouty guy and suddenly getting to correct your aim? Because auras do just as much for other factions, just with a shorter range and the ability to stack.
they already have a Sergeant in their squad telling them to run as fast as possible to get to an objective.

Sergeants don't issue Orders. Sergeants are, effectively, a wasted body in the Guard Infantry/Veteran/Scion Squads. They're there to remove a Lasgun/Hellgun and to force you to still pay for the body.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 18:28:36


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

You're going to have to explain this one to me. How is a character doubling the firepower of units worth 2,67 times his cost fair? You are getting 80 pts worth of shooting for 30 pts.

An Infantry Squad or Veteran Squad(the two that can guaranteed get an Order from a <Regiment> Officer) are starting off a Lasgun down thanks to the Sergeant's mere presence(which is mandatory).

Just so we're clear. You're never really "doubling" the firepower of the unit. And the effectiveness goes down the more upgrades a squad gets, which is just stupid in and of itself.

Because FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns.

You are still doubling firepower, you're just only doubling it for 36 pts worth per unit, 71 pts in total, in other words, you're still getting at least 60 pts worth of extra shooting for 30 pts. You can give your Sergeants a boltgun for 1 pt if you're not playing Catachan.

Alternatively, you can automatically warptime one of your units, no roll required, no chance of failure.

Well, unless it's being issued to Conscripts, who have the Raw Recruits rule literally requiring you to roll for an automatic buff.

Or if you FRFSRF'd the unit in question.
How is this fair compared to what other factions get?

How many other factions have huge chunks of their army that can't benefit from a core HQ ability?
If it doesn't have <Regiment>, it can't receive Orders from a <Regiment> Officer.
If it isn't Infantry, it can't receive Orders.

Scions are the exception to the rule, requiring a Tempestor Prime to be able to get issued Orders.

Necrons, Orks, Tau and Drukhari. It doesn't really matter that much that you're limited in the units you can buff as long as the units you buff can be brought in numbers where the buff makes sense. We see that with all of the factions I mentioned and Astra Militarum also, it's just not an excuse for him to be this OP, I don't want to get rid of him, just balance him.
My problems are only with M!M!M! and FRF!SRF! They have never been this good in previous editions, just suddenly they get "simplified" into being massively more powerful.

Not really. All that happened is you can't laugh off Lasguns anymore.

False. Previously orders had a chance of failing, now they automatically take effect. Previously FRFSRF only added 1 to the number of shots, now it adds 2 if you're within 12". MMM added about 1,5" to your movement, now it adds 9,5".
M^3 does need to be adjusted, but FRFSRF is fine as is. There is only one "purely Lasgun" unit, and that's the Conscript Squad--which has a 50/50 shot of failing the Order.

9/10 guys in Infantry Squads still benefit from the order because lasguns are so good this edition that you'll rarely see special or heavy weapons unless the mission set punishes 10-man squads. Conscripts are in a weird place currently, I don't understand why anyone would use them, I've had them used once against me since they got the doubledunk nerf and they weren't very effective, I've heard they've seen a little bit of success in competitive, but I'm convinced the players could've done as well with Infantry Squads. I'd be perfectly happy with a Conscript buff by making orders work 5/6 times if Company Commanders took a nerf.

And frankly? The range on Orders is pathetic now. Even with Vox-Casters which, mind you, need to be paid for and require both a Vox-Caster near the issuing Officer and in the unit receiving the Order.

And that further restricts the type of unit receiving said Orders, as there are four(technically five I guess?) units in the Guard which can take Voxes:
-Command Squads, both normal and Tempestus
-Infantry Squads
-Veteran Squads
-Scion Squads[/spoiler]
That's why you take 2-3 Company Commanders to babysit different groups of squads instead of relying on a command squad in the back issuing orders with voxes. IMO voxes need a buff, I don't think infinite range would be ridiculous since you'd still be limited by having a vox in the target and having enough orders to hand out to the units you want to order around. Alternatively, you could reduce the cost to 3 and see what happens, I might be wrong but I don't think they ever get used in competitive.
The Company Commander could go up 50% in pts cost tomorrow and I believe he'd still be in some lists.

Nostradamus here! What else are people going to run?
-Commissars can't issue Orders.
-Primaris Psykers can't issue Orders.
-Tempestor Primes can only issue Orders to Scions.
-Tank Commanders can only issue Orders to Leman Russ

So please, Nostradamus, enlighten us lowly Guard players as to what else might be ran as an HQ if the Company Commander went up in points.

Beyond making me go and spend 20 minutes on wikipedia I don't know what the purpose of mentioning Nostradamus was? Is it that he only predicted things that were inevitable? I think Astra Militarum players have collectively decided to forget about Platoon Commanders, you know the ones that were mandatory in previous editions? You could also just not use the mechanic if it was really that bad, that's what Grey Knights do with Brother-Captains and what Space Wolves do with their Wolf Priests. They wouldn't be used at 1,5x price because you had to, but because you wanted to, because the value would still be there.

There's also just the whole problem of it not making any sense that a Company Commander would have this much effect on how fast an Infantry Squad runs

Does it really make sense for you to be standing next to a shouty guy and suddenly getting to correct your aim? Because auras do just as much for other factions, just with a shorter range and the ability to stack.

What auras? Guilliman? That's honestly the best comparison I have. No, I get 75 pts worth of shooting and +1 to advance and charge rolls for 80 pts. I don't get 70 pts of shooting for 30 pts and I also don't have the option of warptiming my guys, sure i get +1 to advance while also adding 1 to hit rolls, but that doesn't really compare to double shots or double move. You need to castle up 500-900 pts within an aura if you want to get the same level of value from a support character with any other faction.
they already have a Sergeant in their squad telling them to run as fast as possible to get to an objective.

Sergeants don't issue Orders. Sergeants are, effectively, a wasted body in the Guard Infantry/Veteran/Scion Squads. They're there to remove a Lasgun/Hellgun and to force you to still pay for the body.

You're awfully mad about the extra 2 melee attacks, 1 pistol shot and 1 Ld you get for no extra cost and you can just grab a boltgun if you want him to be more shooty. What I meant wasn't that Sergeants give orders as such, merely that they are leading their squad in the fluff sense and for AM that probably involves a whole lot of shouting. If you had 3 different characters all adding +1 to advance rolls you'd still only be at 3/9,5" of Movement you get from Warpt... MMM. I don't mind the abstraction too much, but this is sitting just on the line for me. We have an order that is unfluffy and OP and I don't think it's strange for me to want to nerf it. Aura abilities can be really insane when you stack buff on top of buff and end providing an extreme amount of value, making Aura abilities only affect units where every model is in range would fix some of the castle problems 8th has caused with some factions. I won't reply any further on orders in this thread, but feel free to try to convince me I'd like to change my mind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/10 08:30:06


 
   
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i dunno:

9/10 guys in Infantry Squads still benefit from the order because lasguns are so good this edition that you'll rarely see special or heavy weapons unless the mission set punishes 10-man squads. Conscripts are in a weird place currently, I don't understand why anyone would use them, I've had them used once against me since they got the doubledunk nerf and they weren't very effective, I've heard they've seen a little bit of success in competitive, but I'm convinced the players could've done as well with Infantry Squads. I'd be perfectly happy with a Conscript buff by making orders work 5/6 times if Company Commanders took a nerf.


Lasguns even doubling their firerate means not really anything against T4 units.

It's light infantry that suffers and even there it is ridicoulusly low improvement.

Also the bolter is something nobody really choses for IG equivalents.
(because it is bad)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're awfully mad about the extra 2 melee attacks, 1 pistol shot and 1 Ld you get for no extra cost and you can just grab a boltgun if you want him to be more shooty. What I meant wasn't that Sergeants give orders as such, merely that they are leading their squad in the fluff sense and for AM that probably involves a whole lot of shouting. If you had 3 different characters all adding +1 to advance rolls you'd still only be at 3/9,5" of Movement you get from Warpt... MMM. I don't mind the abstraction too much, but this is sitting just on the line for me. We have an order that is unfluffy and OP and I don't think it's strange for me to want to nerf it. Aura abilities can be really insane when you stack buff on top of buff and end providing an extreme amount of value, making Aura abilities only affect units where every model is in range would fix some of the castle problems 8th has caused with some factions. I won't reply any further on orders in this thread, but feel free to try to convince me I'd like to change my mind.


Literally all Champions and Squad leaders of IoM and Chaos do the same.
Except most of these are not hamstrung into bs options.
Even Renegade and Heretics champions can still pick a Autogun/ lasgun / shotgun and be effective at what they are supposed to be.

Also if an IG squad is in melee it's allready a loss. Exception to the rule is Catachan, but even that squad generally won't survive due to the Armor save beeing in mass combat more relevant.
Meaning that any Melee unit or even marine Equivs walk over IG squads. (and yes i have done it enough with my CSM with boltguns)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/10 09:09:42


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10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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Why do most of the csm doctrine suggestions include chaos marks and other daemonic stuff? It's not fluffy for night lords alpha legion or iron warriors. How about a variation on the loyalist rule. +1 to wound with heavy, then assault and rapid fire, and then melee weapons changing on turns if you choose like the sm rule. Like votlw all the time. The more fluffy stuff can wait for legion specific rules. I would personally like to see a variation of the "a talent for murder " rule from 30k for night lords. And gw should just go ahead and make the legion traits we already have apply to vehicles.
   
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Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster






Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why do most of the csm doctrine suggestions include chaos marks and other daemonic stuff? It's not fluffy for night lords alpha legion or iron warriors. How about a variation on the loyalist rule. +1 to wound with heavy, then assault and rapid fire, and then melee weapons changing on turns if you choose like the sm rule. Like votlw all the time. The more fluffy stuff can wait for legion specific rules. I would personally like to see a variation of the "a talent for murder " rule from 30k for night lords. And gw should just go ahead and make the legion traits we already have apply to vehicles.

Why not just make rules for all the marks and add one for specifically not taking a mark? "Chaos Undevoted"- If a CSM army does not contain any units with marks of chaos then their detachments are worth more CP based on a table of values. The values would have to be playtested for balance, but the goal would be to make marks an alternative or trade-off. That way their ruthless application of tactics can be represented in more strategems which will vary between the unaligned armies.
   
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 DominayTrix wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why do most of the csm doctrine suggestions include chaos marks and other daemonic stuff? It's not fluffy for night lords alpha legion or iron warriors. How about a variation on the loyalist rule. +1 to wound with heavy, then assault and rapid fire, and then melee weapons changing on turns if you choose like the sm rule. Like votlw all the time. The more fluffy stuff can wait for legion specific rules. I would personally like to see a variation of the "a talent for murder " rule from 30k for night lords. And gw should just go ahead and make the legion traits we already have apply to vehicles.

Why not just make rules for all the marks and add one for specifically not taking a mark? "Chaos Undevoted"- If a CSM army does not contain any units with marks of chaos then their detachments are worth more CP based on a table of values. The values would have to be playtested for balance, but the goal would be to make marks an alternative or trade-off. That way their ruthless application of tactics can be represented in more strategems which will vary between the unaligned armies.

That could work but with people running double battalions and stuff like the red corsairs trait there's already starting to be some cp bloat. It would have to be balanced right. Although it might get people to play more actual marines if they don't need cheap troop choices just to get cp.
   
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why do most of the csm doctrine suggestions include chaos marks and other daemonic stuff? It's not fluffy for night lords alpha legion or iron warriors. How about a variation on the loyalist rule. +1 to wound with heavy, then assault and rapid fire, and then melee weapons changing on turns if you choose like the sm rule. Like votlw all the time. The more fluffy stuff can wait for legion specific rules. I would personally like to see a variation of the "a talent for murder " rule from 30k for night lords. And gw should just go ahead and make the legion traits we already have apply to vehicles.

The intention with my rules is that there are no individual warband/legion rules, you'd be mono Heretic Astartes and then possibly also one of the four infernal allegiances or no infernal allegiance. Both Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion can now dedicate themselves to Chaos which I don't think was possible in 3rd. There aren't really any "secular" renegades as far as GW rules are concerned AFAIK, but I did make a rule for if you don't want anything to do with any particular Chaos god and that was also intended for any faction that might not pray to the Chaos gods but simply revel in mayhem.

Combat Doctrines are the opposite of CSM, they don't have the same regimented doctrines that compliant SM chapters do. I think it's a shame that the boon table isn't used more often so that's why that's involved with the mono-Heretic Astartes but I can see how it would feel bad if you want to do a secular band of SM renegades and the chaos gods are giving you boons out of nowhere. If you just wanted to turn off the boon bonus using my system you could soup with a R&H Battalion and not take any marks for any of your units, that would give you Dakka Dakka Dakka and would be very fluffy for AL and IW.

If you want to flesh out your own system for mono-codex + mono-sub-faction instead of mono-codex + mono-infernal allegiance then feel free to do so, I'd love to see it. I think the +1 atk in the first round of combat is enough to encourage melee and Combat Doctrines is also pretty heavily weighted towards shooting, it's also meant to help out R&H. As far as fleshing out AL more I don't think they need more army-wide abilities, a couple more Unique Stratagems, Traits and Relics is all I think they need if anything.

I also think their Tactic needs to be nerfed but that's not super relevant here. Relevant to a possible AL nerf is the Raven Guard. I think they are going to be great against Knights with their +1 to hit and wound against Characters when the Tactical Doctrine is active. I'm not sure how well it compares to UM and WS, but according to Reece from FLG who has playtested the rules, the IH and IF are the best, with what I've seen from the IH that seems likely. Does anyone feel like any of the so-far released rules for SM Chapters don't fit? Had you wished for something else for any of these benefits?
   
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I really like chaos demons and genestealer cult ideas.

Many of the others seem a bit off.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 vict0988 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why do most of the csm doctrine suggestions include chaos marks and other daemonic stuff? It's not fluffy for night lords alpha legion or iron warriors. How about a variation on the loyalist rule. +1 to wound with heavy, then assault and rapid fire, and then melee weapons changing on turns if you choose like the sm rule. Like votlw all the time. The more fluffy stuff can wait for legion specific rules. I would personally like to see a variation of the "a talent for murder " rule from 30k for night lords. And gw should just go ahead and make the legion traits we already have apply to vehicles.

The intention with my rules is that there are no individual warband/legion rules, you'd be mono Heretic Astartes and then possibly also one of the four infernal allegiances or no infernal allegiance. Both Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion can now dedicate themselves to Chaos which I don't think was possible in 3rd. There aren't really any "secular" renegades as far as GW rules are concerned AFAIK, but I did make a rule for if you don't want anything to do with any particular Chaos god and that was also intended for any faction that might not pray to the Chaos gods but simply revel in mayhem.

Combat Doctrines are the opposite of CSM, they don't have the same regimented doctrines that compliant SM chapters do. I think it's a shame that the boon table isn't used more often so that's why that's involved with the mono-Heretic Astartes but I can see how it would feel bad if you want to do a secular band of SM renegades and the chaos gods are giving you boons out of nowhere. If you just wanted to turn off the boon bonus using my system you could soup with a R&H Battalion and not take any marks for any of your units, that would give you Dakka Dakka Dakka and would be very fluffy for AL and IW.

If you want to flesh out your own system for mono-codex + mono-sub-faction instead of mono-codex + mono-infernal allegiance then feel free to do so, I'd love to see it. I think the +1 atk in the first round of combat is enough to encourage melee and Combat Doctrines is also pretty heavily weighted towards shooting, it's also meant to help out R&H. As far as fleshing out AL more I don't think they need more army-wide abilities, a couple more Unique Stratagems, Traits and Relics is all I think they need if anything.

I also think their Tactic needs to be nerfed but that's not super relevant here. Relevant to a possible AL nerf is the Raven Guard. I think they are going to be great against Knights with their +1 to hit and wound against Characters when the Tactical Doctrine is active. I'm not sure how well it compares to UM and WS, but according to Reece from FLG who has playtested the rules, the IH and IF are the best, with what I've seen from the IH that seems likely. Does anyone feel like any of the so-far released rules for SM Chapters don't fit? Had you wished for something else for any of these benefits?

I believe the only way most factions are going to catch up with the sm is the sub faction route because sm are getting multiple new rules along with strategems and relics. Extra cp won't help if we don't get strategems and relics to spend them on and most csm legions only have a couple relics and some only one. So we either need supplements or new codexes. I don't know enough about how other armies work to be able to come up with rules for them. I think the talent for murder trait fits great for night lords. Also if gw want to push for mono armies then they need to address the fact that a lot of armies will have trouble dealing with knights by themselves in the current meta. That means dropping the points increase on the super heavys we got in ca.
   
 
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