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I wanted to get your thoughts on guilliman after he woke up from his millennia long sleep in stasis. Since he's come back I've heard many negative things from buddies in that they think he's boring, he's a mary sue and he doesn't really fit. I personally was rather indifferent towards him and his resurrection, because I am not that interested in the ultramarines in the first place, though I was curious how the return of a loyalist primarch would influence the setting.

Now some time has passed and we've seen guilliman appear in some black library publications in which we've gotten at least some insight into his character and I have to say I actually really like the guy. I know 40k is supposed to be grimdark and all that stuff, but I think it's nice to have a leading figure appear for the imperium who actually cares for once. The imperium was/is an indifferent meatgrinder, that kept humanity going (sort of) through ridiculously draconic measures, so having guilliman really try to change things for the better is a rather nice change for once. This glimmer of hope will not last of course in my opinion, because I personally think that he well ultimately fail to reform the imperium for the better....it has been an utter shithole for way too long.

What are your opinions on rawbutt girlyman?

I was very anti-Gulliman before Dark Imperium. Since his newer 40k stories and one or two Horus Heresy stories, I think he has become a much more interesting and well-rounded character and I now enjoy reading about him.

There is a lot of knee jerk reaction to RG's return and vast amounts of nonsense about him being a Mary sue and similar crap. Anyone who has actually read the lore knows this is untrue.

It was made very clear from the start that he is struggling on all fronts, that he is horrified by what the Imperium has become, enemies have confounded him on various fronts.....

Of all the potential Primarchs to return, he is really the only one who can do anything to reform or even more realistically just hold the Imperium together - probably the latter at best as its in a worse state than it has been for millenia.

yeah I think of all the loyalist primarchs gulliman was proably the best frm a "Stories to tell" pov to return. they've done good work with him

He was always the most "balanced" Primarch from 2nd edition days, though perhaps viewed as boringly bland. It was Ward's fanboy gushing that triggered the backlash against him and the UM.

A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

I'm still not a fan of him being around and the idea of Primarchs being back is really bad to me but I care much less now GW have succeeded in pushing me out of the Imperial factions I played.
I will admit he isn't as much of a ridiculous Mary Sue since they expanded on him but I'm waiting for the reveal he's Alpharius.

I have read some of the fluff and I like the portrayal of Guilliman. His perspective and values are closer to our own than most 40K characters. This means that he makes a great POV character as he shares the horror we would experience if we found ourselves in the grim dark future.

Now you could argue he is a Mary Sue but I feel he is not. A Mary Sue is a character so powerful that they can overcome the challenges in the plot without effort or growth. That is not really the case with Guilliman. While he is far more powerful than any other loyalist in the setting but even he is struggling. His demonic brothers are more powerful than him and even his father's sword only partially levels the playing field.

Guilliman is also suspicious of Cawl and the various factions of the Imperium. Then there are his doubts about his father. He knows that the Emperor regards him as a tool rather than a son. He is also wrestling with his doubts about his father's divinity.

Guilliman is there to be our eyes and ears in the 4 1st millennium. He asks the questions we want answers to.

Until ward was unleashed and a number of retcons were made Gulliman was effectively the best quartermaster in the galaxy, who’s main claim to fame was managing to “miss” the Horus Heresy and then proceed to blackmail the people who had fought with another civil war to get his own way and make a power grab.

He was basically a massive douche who wanted to be in charge, like Horus but without the charisma or balls to do anything about it until after he and his legion sat out the war.

Now a few retcons later and he is the hero of the imperium who just happens to have strong ties with an ex member of the dark Mechanicus who has a penchant for tech heresy and a love of his own name.
Between them they built up a secret army of heretical warriors, mutants created illegally from the Emperors plans stolen...sorry acquired by Gulliman. They then armed these warriors with heretical weapons that broke all laws and conventions of the imperium and Mechanicus.
All this a short time after he had gimped the imperial military and marines, I wonder what he had planned making a huge army of marine killers.
Given every piece of previous fluff published the end of the gathering storm should have been Gulliman taking a turbo penetrator round to the head and cawl being turned into a servitor and then the mutant marines being flushed from there tubes down the drain.

SeanDrake wrote:
Until ward was unleashed and a number of retcons were made Gulliman was effectively the best quartermaster in the galaxy, who’s main claim to fame was managing to “miss” the Horus Heresy and then proceed to blackmail the people who had fought with another civil war to get his own way and make a power grab.

He was basically a massive douche who wanted to be in charge, like Horus but without the charisma or balls to do anything about it until after he and his legion sat out the war.

Now a few retcons later and he is the hero of the imperium who just happens to have strong ties with an ex member of the dark Mechanicus who has a penchant for tech heresy and a love of his own name.
Between them they built up a secret army of heretical warriors, mutants created illegally from the Emperors plans stolen...sorry acquired by Gulliman. They then armed these warriors with heretical weapons that broke all laws and conventions of the imperium and Mechanicus.
All this a short time after he had gimped the imperial military and marines, I wonder what he had planned making a huge army of marine killers.
Given every piece of previous fluff published the end of the gathering storm should have been Gulliman taking a turbo penetrator round to the head and cawl being turned into a servitor and then the mutant marines being flushed from there tubes down the drain.

Hmm thats one way of lookng at it (not mine)

He was and is in charge

Now the other Primarchs did not seem to want the job (or were dead, or busy or whatever) and I am not sure the Lion, Russ or the Khan would have done a better job? Maybe Vulkan or Dorn could have but again Vulkan was a bit mad from all the deaths (I think) and not sure about Dorn.

Lets face it none of them (cept maybe the Lion - he always seems a very dodgy character) wanted it and were quite happy off fighting stuff.

The laws and conventions of the Mechanicus are many and varied and they do Alot of breaking their own rules - when even different Forgeworlds can agree on them.

If the Emperor was planning on the Marines Mk2 anyway - then he is carrying out his fathers plans - but a bit late....

His reforms kinda make sense in the aftermath of the HH and then he gets shived by Flugrim so not alot of reforms being made later.

I agree that he is one of the most normal Primarchs but that might be why some dislike him so much as he is not so massively over the top as say the Lion or Russ.

And Cawl was noi more a servant of the dark mechanicus then Fabricator General Kane was. both where servants of men who turned who immediatly fought agaisnt it.

the whole "LOL Gulliman is a power hungry douche" is fan fiction written by people who deliberatly misinterprate the history

BrianDavion wrote:

the whole "LOL Gulliman is a power hungry douche" is fan fiction written by people who deliberatly misinterprate the history

If it is fanfiction, it is fanfiction by people who want him to be an interesting character who fits in the setting. If Guilliman actually was a power hungry hypocritical manipulative opportunist I might actually like him.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

the whole "LOL Gulliman is a power hungry douche" is fan fiction written by people who deliberatly misinterprate the history

If it is fanfiction, it is fanfiction by people who want him to be an interesting character who fits in the setting. If Guilliman actually was a power hungry hypocritical manipulative opportunist I might actually like him.

except he's not intreasting if he's reduced to a power hungry grim dark caraicture. It's most more intreasting when you have well meaning characters struggling agaisnt the tide. before gulliman it was easy to shrug and say "we;; if the high lords weren't just a buncha power hungry self absorbed fools the IoM would be fine" Gulliman proves that "nope, even a genius leader whose genuinely trying to do the right thing fails.

BTW you DID see his colossal feth up in the novel "Dark Imperium" I assume?

It is not about success or failure, it never was. Grimdark is not just 'things are bad'. But I really can't be arsed to redo this discussion with Guilliman fanboys who do not understand the original concept of the setting. (And why would they when the GW writers themselves no longer do?)

 Crimson wrote:
It is not about success or failure, it never was. Grimdark is not just 'things are bad'. But I really can't be arsed to redo this discussion with Guilliman fanboys who do not understand the original concept of the setting. (And why would they when the GW writers themselves no longer do?)

I am curious, what is that original concept to you? I am not a guilliman or smurf fanboy by any stretch, so I am genuinely asking here.

The shift from 40k as a sandbox to tell your own stories in to a progressing narrative about a very small cast of super beings is definitely not to my taste. I vastly preferred when the setting was huge and mysterious and the myths were just that, and left open to interpretation and imagination. Making your own story is a lot more satisfying than reading someone elses unless that person is a talented writer, and GW does not have many of those any more. It mostly employs enthusiastic fans and that is probably why what they write reads like fan fiction for the most part.

I blame the heresy really. It showed the market for super heroic soap opera in the 41st millenium.

 Crimson wrote:
But I really can't be arsed to redo this discussion with Guilliman fanboys who do not understand the original concept of the setting.

Please, I am by no means a Guilliman fanboy but tell me exactly how Grimdark the setting is supposed to be and how Guilliman's reintroduction somehow "ruins" this.

 Da Boss wrote:
The shift from 40k as a sandbox to tell your own stories in to a progressing narrative about a very small cast of super beings is definitely not to my taste. I vastly preferred when the setting was huge and mysterious and the myths were just that, and left open to interpretation and imagination. Making your own story is a lot more satisfying than reading someone elses...

Sorry the shift from narrative sandbox to actualized sci-fi setting upset you so much... But that is the cost of being more than a parody setting and being more than a placeholder in order to vaguely explain tabletop battles and sell models.

Tiberias wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is not about success or failure, it never was. Grimdark is not just 'things are bad'. But I really can't be arsed to redo this discussion with Guilliman fanboys who do not understand the original concept of the setting. (And why would they when the GW writers themselves no longer do?)

I am curious, what is that original concept to you? I am not a guilliman or smurf fanboy by any stretch, so I am genuinely asking here.

It is dark comedy of terrible people in a terrible universe. Almost everyone is some sort of fethed up lunatic or a crook. And more power the people have, shittier they become. A bit like Game of Thrones when it still was good, mixed with a dose of Blackadder, except even more over the top. There are no heroes or if there is, they're the little people who end up death in the ditch. The leader of the Imperium being a superhero with morals is as antithetical to this as you can get.

 Crimson wrote:
It is dark comedy of terrible people in a terrible universe. Almost everyone is some sort of fethed up lunatic or a crook. And more power the people have, shittier they become. A bit like Game of Thrones when it still was good, mixed with a dose of Blackadder, except even more over the top. There are no heroes or if there is, they're the little people who end up death in the ditch. The leader of the Imperium being a superhero with morals is as antithetical to this as you can get.

Sorry, I view 40k as more than a twisted parody/dark comedy setting. Sure there can be elements of that, and there are, but limiting it to that stunts its potential. I'm glad we have come away from the RT era and the roots of the 40k setting where it was nothing but a running joke.

Da Boss wrote:The shift from 40k as a sandbox to tell your own stories in to a progressing narrative about a very small cast of super beings is definitely not to my taste. I vastly preferred when the setting was huge and mysterious and the myths were just that, and left open to interpretation and imagination. Making your own story is a lot more satisfying than reading someone elses unless that person is a talented writer, and GW does not have many of those any more. It mostly employs enthusiastic fans and that is probably why what they write reads like fan fiction for the most part.

I blame the heresy really. It showed the market for super heroic soap opera in the 41st millenium.

Crimson wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is not about success or failure, it never was. Grimdark is not just 'things are bad'. But I really can't be arsed to redo this discussion with Guilliman fanboys who do not understand the original concept of the setting. (And why would they when the GW writers themselves no longer do?)

I am curious, what is that original concept to you? I am not a guilliman or smurf fanboy by any stretch, so I am genuinely asking here.

It is dark comedy of terrible people in a terrible universe. Almost everyone is some sort of fethed up lunatic or a crook. And more power the people have, shittier they become. A bit like Game of Thrones when it still was good, mixed with a dose of Blackadder, except even more over the top. There are no heroes or if there is, they're the little people who end up death in the ditch. The leader of the Imperium being a superhero with morals is as antithetical to this as you can get.

I get both points here. For one I agree that the 40k setting from 10-15 years ago had more mystery and interesting legend-lore in it, which only hinted at different events or figures like the primarchs. One could very well argue that primarchs should have stayed those figures shrouded in myth an legend. Though to be fair previous editions and their corresponding lore are also often viewed through nostalgia goggles, which is also a part of the reason that people react defensive when the setting changes (I am one of those people btw).
But Guilliman being a rather stand up guy (by 40k standards anyway, he's still an autocrat) does not necessarily destroy the setting if it is handled correctly. Having a character be somewhat decent and struggling against the tide can be interesting in my opinion, simply because even though guilliman is a spark of hope for the imperium, many things he achieved are ultimately phyrric victories. Even with guilliman the imperium can't really win, they are as besieged from all sides as they were before the indomitus crusade, they simply managed to push back.
Now lets not slide into an argument about primaris marines please, but I have to say that I view them as a way bigger threat to the settting as you described them than guilliman, simply because of the way they were introduced, their abundant numbers and their new high tech gear.

 Mr Morden wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Until ward was unleashed and a number of retcons were made Gulliman was effectively the best quartermaster in the galaxy, who’s main claim to fame was managing to “miss” the Horus Heresy and then proceed to blackmail the people who had fought with another civil war to get his own way and make a power grab.

He was basically a massive douche who wanted to be in charge, like Horus but without the charisma or balls to do anything about it until after he and his legion sat out the war.

Now a few retcons later and he is the hero of the imperium who just happens to have strong ties with an ex member of the dark Mechanicus who has a penchant for tech heresy and a love of his own name.
Between them they built up a secret army of heretical warriors, mutants created illegally from the Emperors plans stolen...sorry acquired by Gulliman. They then armed these warriors with heretical weapons that broke all laws and conventions of the imperium and Mechanicus.
All this a short time after he had gimped the imperial military and marines, I wonder what he had planned making a huge army of marine killers.
Given every piece of previous fluff published the end of the gathering storm should have been Gulliman taking a turbo penetrator round to the head and cawl being turned into a servitor and then the mutant marines being flushed from there tubes down the drain.

Hmm thats one way of lookng at it (not mine)

He was and is in charge

Now the other Primarchs did not seem to want the job (or were dead, or busy or whatever) and I am not sure the Lion, Russ or the Khan would have done a better job? Maybe Vulkan or Dorn could have but again Vulkan was a bit mad from all the deaths (I think) and not sure about Dorn.

Lets face it none of them (cept maybe the Lion - he always seems a very dodgy character) wanted it and were quite happy off fighting stuff.

The laws and conventions of the Mechanicus are many and varied and they do Alot of breaking their own rules - when even different Forgeworlds can agree on them.

If the Emperor was planning on the Marines Mk2 anyway - then he is carrying out his fathers plans - but a bit late....

His reforms kinda make sense in the aftermath of the HH and then he gets shived by Flugrim so not alot of reforms being made later.

I agree that he is one of the most normal Primarchs but that might be why some dislike him so much as he is not so massively over the top as say the Lion or Russ.

As for fanfic not really everything I said is reflected in the original fluff for the heresy and still supported by a lot of bl current stuff.

Yes he was in charge because he threatened his brothers with another civil war if they did not bend the knee too him.

Now this bit is head cannon but given most of his brothers went “missing” in “mysterious” circumstances and Gulliman had control of the assassins well you do the math

The other primarchs did not get a choice Gulliman was prepared to kick off an orbital bombardment of earth if they did not do as he wanted and I doubt he would have said ok if one of his brothers suggested they should be in charge. I expect that to be retconned by bl though.

His reforms only make sense in one way when you consider that 1. The ultramarines never actually broke up like the other legions as they were all still controlled by Gulliman and the ultramarines and all stationed around ultramar. 2. Gulliman had 10 full legions worth of tech heresy mutants almost ready to go I wonder what he was planning to use them for I mean he was so loyal he did not try creating his own empire during the imperium biggest crisis so no ulterior motives obviously.

No Gulliman stole... sorry found the emps original research and then cawl committed more heresy by using as the basis of his own fabulous bill style marines.

He’s not so much boring but basically a walking plot hook like cawl is now, if GW got stuck for why something happened in the heresy Gulliman did it that’s what turned him into a Mary Sue well ward as well. It’s the same now most of the new fluff hinges on “cawl did it” without much in the way of logic or internal consistency with previous fluff.

I would hardly say normal the man had an ego bigger than horus and he had been poisoned by the warp, he was basically a pen pusher who felt he got overlooked due to his more flamboyant brothers and felt he could do everything better(see the um special units in 30k). He was more or less the stereotypical little brother with a dash of napoleon complex.

As for fanfic not really everything I said is reflected in the original fluff for the heresy and still supported by a lot of bl current stuff.

no it's fan fic to the degree that you've DRAMATICLY misread the events that happened.

Yes he was in charge because he threatened his brothers with another civil war if they did not bend the knee too him.

No he was in charge of the high lords of terra (mostly because none of his other brothers had any intreast in the kind of work nesscary to rebuild and renew the IoMs political insisutions. can you imagine Russ trying to reform a intergalatic government?)

Now this bit is head cannon but given most of his brothers went “missing” in “mysterious” circumstances and Gulliman had control of the assassins well you do the math

except they didn't. The Khan buggered off into the webway and was never seen again.
Dorn got shanked fighting chaos marines.
Corax and Russ where the only ones who took off and dissappered, and Gulliman had been gone for a century when russ went away. you're "theory" is tinfoil hat territory simply devised because you want to view Gulliman in the worst light.

His reforms only make sense in one way when you consider that 1. The ultramarines never actually broke up like the other legions as they were all still controlled by Gulliman and the ultramarines and all stationed around ultramar. 2. Gulliman had 10 full legions worth of tech heresy mutants almost ready to go I wonder what he was planning to use them for I mean he was so loyal he did not try creating his own empire during the imperium biggest crisis so no ulterior motives obviously.

except the ultramarines legion was broken up. his reforms make perfect sense if you conclude that the rest of the highlords wanted to DISBAND THE ASTARTES ENTIRELY and the implimentation of chapters was a comprimise measure. His reforms make perfect sense, if you reckongize that Gulliman was a man trying to work with a panic'd hoard of non-marine statesmen.

No Gulliman stole... sorry found the emps original research and then cawl committed more heresy by using as the basis of his own fabulous bill style marines.

It's not heresy if those closest to your god approve it.


In short your entire view on Gulliman is utterly warped.

What's this "heresy" rubbish? The Primaris project kicked off at the tail end of the Heresy; the only people wibbling about "heresy" at that point were Lorgar and his loony followers.

 Crimson wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is not about success or failure, it never was. Grimdark is not just 'things are bad'. But I really can't be arsed to redo this discussion with Guilliman fanboys who do not understand the original concept of the setting. (And why would they when the GW writers themselves no longer do?)

I am curious, what is that original concept to you? I am not a guilliman or smurf fanboy by any stretch, so I am genuinely asking here.

It is dark comedy of terrible people in a terrible universe. Almost everyone is some sort of fethed up lunatic or a crook. And more power the people have, shittier they become. A bit like Game of Thrones when it still was good, mixed with a dose of Blackadder, except even more over the top. There are no heroes or if there is, they're the little people who end up death in the ditch. The leader of the Imperium being a superhero with morals is as antithetical to this as you can get.

And what's more darkly comic than the most powerful person alive unable to change anything due to people desperate to please him or their idea of him? Guilliman is a legitimate superman, with a legacy and name that dwarf even his physical prowess.
And yet he's died already before, the universe is a big place and is legend is so much larger than him - that if it happened again, it's pretty likely that he won't be missed.

As a crook, he could be the next Horus and consign Abbadon to the footnotes of history, but Guilliman the man is going to be fighting forever against Guilliman the Legend if he stays true.

Yeah, you don't get it. Him being a crook wouldn't make him the 'main enemy.' That you'd think that shows just how distorted this all has become. Imperium is not and should not be 'the good guys'. Imperium's leaders should not be moral or noble. Again, grimdark is not about winning or losing, it is about the rot.

You misunderstand me, I'm not saying that he should or could be the big bad guy. More that literally the Son of God has come back, and is still tied up in the madness and red tape of the Dark Millenium to the extent that if he just died again, no one would probably even notice.

If he wanted to actually change anything, it'd only be in the same way Horus or Abaddon would do, by embracing chaos and madness and just burning everything down.

But he can't bring himself to do that without surrendering everything about himself, so he's almost as powerless as we are.

40K is not about power corrupting, it's about the nightmare of scale (of size, time and stakes) and the insignificance of the individual - regardless of who that individual is, in this case.

Tastyfish wrote:
More that literally the Son of God has come back, and is still tied up in the madness and red tape of the Dark Millenium to the extent that if he just died again, no one would probably even notice.

Cool. Can we test that theory about no one noticing his death soon?

But he can't bring himself to do that without surrendering everything about himself, so he's almost as powerless as we are.

The leader of the imperium is a superpowered good guy instead of a corrupt cabal of amoral tyrants. This is just wrong.

 Crimson wrote:
The leader of the imperium is a superpowered good guy instead of a corrupt cabal of amoral tyrants. This is just wrong.

Why? The setting can still be grimdark and depressing if this is the case. It just injects a bit of hope into a setting that is so OVERLY grimdark it often became a parody of itself. As long as they don't go too far with it, which they haven't yet IMO.

w1zard wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The leader of the imperium is a superpowered good guy instead of a corrupt cabal of amoral tyrants. This is just wrong.

Why? The setting can still be grimdark and depressing if this is the case. It just injects a bit of hope into a setting that is so OVERLY grimdark it often became a parody of itself. As long as they don't go too far with it, which they haven't yet IMO.

I agree. The grimdark setting is one of the cornerstones of 40k, but not absolutely everything has to be bleak and depressing. As w1zard said, this can lead to the setting becoming a parody of itself, it's not bad to insert a glimmer of hope once in a while, if it is handled well. Like I said, having a good character like guilliman fight against the tide of darkness and realizing that he can't really win, can lead to interesting character development.

Also I am not saying people in this thread have this opinion, but for years I've heard people complain that the setting of 40k will never progress, GW will never change the status quo. Now they start advancing the setting and people still hate it. I know it depends on how you handle story progression and I am myself still not happy with how they introduced primaris marines and cawl for example, but I think they handled guilliman rather well.

BrianDavion wrote:

As for fanfic not really everything I said is reflected in the original fluff for the heresy and still supported by a lot of bl current stuff.

no it's fan fic to the degree that you've DRAMATICLY misread the events that happened.

Yes he was in charge because he threatened his brothers with another civil war if they did not bend the knee too him.

No he was in charge of the high lords of terra (mostly because none of his other brothers had any intreast in the kind of work nesscary to rebuild and renew the IoMs political insisutions. can you imagine Russ trying to reform a intergalatic government?)

Now this bit is head cannon but given most of his brothers went “missing” in “mysterious” circumstances and Gulliman had control of the assassins well you do the math

except they didn't. The Khan buggered off into the webway and was never seen again.
Dorn got shanked fighting chaos marines.
Corax and Russ where the only ones who took off and dissappered, and Gulliman had been gone for a century when russ went away. you're "theory" is tinfoil hat territory simply devised because you want to view Gulliman in the worst light.

His reforms only make sense in one way when you consider that 1. The ultramarines never actually broke up like the other legions as they were all still controlled by Gulliman and the ultramarines and all stationed around ultramar. 2. Gulliman had 10 full legions worth of tech heresy mutants almost ready to go I wonder what he was planning to use them for I mean he was so loyal he did not try creating his own empire during the imperium biggest crisis so no ulterior motives obviously.

except the ultramarines legion was broken up. his reforms make perfect sense if you conclude that the rest of the highlords wanted to DISBAND THE ASTARTES ENTIRELY and the implimentation of chapters was a comprimise measure. His reforms make perfect sense, if you reckongize that Gulliman was a man trying to work with a panic'd hoard of non-marine statesmen.

No Gulliman stole... sorry found the emps original research and then cawl committed more heresy by using as the basis of his own fabulous bill style marines.

It's not heresy if those closest to your god approve it.


In short your entire view on Gulliman is utterly warped.

Plus it's literally established the rest of the Loyalists buggered off to do their own thing. There's no room for interpretation of Assassins whatsoever. You can't even stretch it.
Hell we at least know what Mr. Raven is up to.