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Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
N.B. I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to noral marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Things having names that make sense in normal english/fake latin but turn out to be someone's name is par for the course in 40k. Arkhan Land being the most infamous example, but few know about him 10,000 years later. Also the Belisarian Furnace does for a marine what Flavius Belisarius did for the ERE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/08 04:15:53
Eipi10 wrote:[spoiler] Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I don't really understand your point here. 40k has ALWAYS had characters who matter on within their factions and the galaxy as a whole, special or not. Creed matters/mattered. Abaddon matters. Dante matters. Cawl just happens to be a new addition to that list. Why is Cawl an issue? Or is it that you have a problem with named characters having ever existed in 40k at all, and it's not at all about Cawl specifically?
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to normal marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I disagree with Creed "mattering" except in the sense that each individual human has a small impact on the galaxy. All he did was slow the 13th Black Crusade down by a few months. Every character with a real (and known) impact on the 40k setting is not human and/or not normal. Eldrad is a super powerful psyker completely devoted to his path, every space marine is a grandson of the Emperor, Ghazgul is da biggest baddest ork. Having Cawl, a normal human, exist alongside these characters is off-putting. It would be like if a grot was also one of 40k's defining characters. Even Goge Vandire is more famous for what marines and custodes did around him than his own actions. So not, I don't have a problem with named characters, nor do I even have problem with Cawl in the abstract, I just wish he was more "special."
Project heads, like Astartes, do not necessarily know every detail of their project. Being two normal people instead of one normal person is not enough. And I find it hard to believe the Emperor had as little influence as you imply. Most all the nitty-gritty work on the Golden Throne was done by normal humans, but the most significant challenge was accomplished by the Emperor (MoM is the book, I think, or was it a short story). I imagine the marines went the same way. I have The Great Work on my reading list, but do you have a particular passage for me (I don't care about spoilers).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 05:30:58
BrianDavion wrote:Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person?
....... seriously?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: How is "personally worked on the Space Marine project, met Horus, directly conversed with the Emperor, has been around since before the Imperium began, and is a cybernetically enhanced monstrosity of a being" not special enough? He's more unique than practically any named Space Marine Chapter Master or Captain (maybe barring Bjorn or Dante) - how is he "a normal human"?
Like, seriously? What makes him "a normal human"?
I consider a special person to be one who is influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k; everyone else is normal. Until a character's consciousness is composed of enough individuals to generate their own god, I would not consider that character to be worthy of being a special character with an obvious impact on the galaxy. As stated previously, Marines are grandsons of the Emperor, and thus are capable of achieving (though not always succeeding in achieving) a kind of impact that mortals are not. Part of his power is infused within them, same with the Custodes, Primarchs, and Thunder Warriors. Cawl, as far as we know, is not infused with that kind of supernatural power. If he were, I would have no objection.
And as far as the quote goes, frankly it puts these other scientists into the same camp as Cawl. Geneforged warriors were commonplace on Terra, most every powerful warlord had them. The Emperor was able to conquer the whole planet because his warriors were unlike anything before, something no one had done for 5000 years. What made his warriors so special? I refuse to believe that it's because he got "the best" scientists in that generation, or made sure to give them the proper funding and inspiration (unless it was he who implanted the knowledge to fix the carapace in Sedayne). I'm sure some previous techno-barbarian would have tried something similar in all those years. The only explanation for their success where so many others had failed is that there was some supernatural power infused in the Emperor's warriors that made than better than everyone else; anything else is something that some other person could have done.
Duskweaver wrote:The Emperor being fairly hands-off with the Astartes project isn't new fluff or a retcon. I suggest people try to get hold of a copy of WD98 from back in 1988. It contains Rick Priestley's original account of how space marines are made. In it, the Emperor visits the Astartes project lab, run by a Dr Outek, because they've just started implanting the very first Black Carapace. The Emperor learns for the first time (because he queries it) that the scientists call the artificial organs 'zygotes'. And he's never seen a 'completed' space marine before. It is very clear that the Emperor has no real idea of the details of the project at this point. All he has done is provide the resources and guide the overall direction of the research. The nineteen implants were all created by the scientists that worked for the Emperor, not the Emperor himself. This is explicitly stated, and it's also implied in some of the names, such as Lyman's Ear and Betcher's Gland. The idea that the Emperor did it all himself was always meant to be later propaganda / religious dogma, not the 'reality'.
A fascinating story, you can still buy the WD for $10 +shipping on amazon, but I looked at a pdf.
That was back before 40k became what it is today; there is no mention of legions, but rather marines were originally created as chapters. Back on topic, if you believe what ADB says about the Emperor then he would just be asking that question to placate the scientist's ego. It is hard to judge any supposed cluelessness on his part. This is why I suspect the Emperor played a heavier hand in the creation of marines than what the state story would imply. It is more probable that he, a near-omniscient being, psychically implanted solutions and insights into the minds of the scientists developing on his warriors.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?
If the emperor gave him specific instructions, even (or especially) psychically, then yes, he is among them. But saying most tech priests are blessed with the Omnissiah's power is like saying most ministorum priests are blessed by the Emperor. I don't think you can say empowerment by a god is proportional to worship, except in a limited sense.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).
How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?
This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.
I'm not talking about physical power. As I said earlier:
I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.
N.B. that even though DE ability to actively manifest psychic powers, like a seer, has atrophied, there is no reason to assume their background powers are reduced in any way, i.e. achievement through obsession.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?
Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all. What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why? Every generation we see amazing scientists, what made Astarte et al. so overwhelmingly good that they could solve what no team had solved for thousands of years when given, we can assume, more or less the same inputs? I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.
So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Yes, that is what I hope. So far, there has been no evidence of this. I don't know if The Great Work or later books will expand on this.
BrianDavion wrote: no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"
He was not the only one making discoveries.
BrianDavion wrote: you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.
Many battles were fought with marines, not thunder warriors. And surely a similar team was assembled to make thunder warriors.
If the Emperor's precog abilities and guidance were what caused his warriors to succeed in battle, why did the not suffer a serious decrease in combat effectiveness when he (and his primarchs) stopped leading them?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.
Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?
It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?
The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.
For T'au characters: the T'au as a race haven't even made a galactic scale impact. None of their characters can match the influence of a Primarch.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?
My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.
By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"
It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"
Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!
I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.
Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?
It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But he was the one to discover that particular one.
In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant".
Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
-Issac Newton
"The Emperor checked the ornate bolter at His hip. One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind – not a relic rediscovered from the Dark Age of Technology but an invention of the Emperor’s own design." (MoM)
Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete? Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten. The space race is a great example. Soyuz rockets are the most used rockets in the world, they're how the ISS stays stocked (or at least they were for a long time). I'm not saying the soviets won, but I am saying American (German) scientists had much greater access to resources and funding (I assume they did, the US economy was an order of magnitude larger than the Soviets; the Emperor did not have such luxuries, he started his conquests from nothing) and won the space race, but we still see Soviet rockets being used all the time. The losing side's contributions didn't disappear after the space race, but they did disappear after the Unification Wars. And even then, the Soviets got pretty close to being able to land on the moon, but no other warlord came close to conquering Terra.
Supernatural intervention is required to explain evens out of the ordinary, and the fact that the other scientists serving other warlords are not even a footnote in 40k is certainly out of the ordinary. It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational. It's clear the technobarbarians would also be searching for scientists to run their gene labs. The only explanation is that the emperor assisted his scientists in some way. The simplest version of that explanation is that the Emperor reached some balance between using his powers to find good scientists (which I don't deny was done to some capacity) and then fill in their missing information with his own divine knowledge such that what they could do was far beyond what anyone else could achieve. The idea that the emperor only used his powers to locate all the best scientists, transport them to his lair, and supply them with what they needed is plausible but highly roundabout (the Custodes of the Aquilon Shield do something like that). It would require a situation where the Emperor's scientists were naturally drastically better than the research teams of other warlords and where doing that would have been easier than giving whatever scientists he could get the knowledge they needed to solve the problems they faced.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.
Can you explain?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.
Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).
The Astartes project was done during the age of strife, under the same conditions as all the other warlords and their super soldier projects.
pm713 wrote:Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Being an expert in something isn't divine blessing. Eldrad is just a talented and skilled Farseer, he's not blessed by a divine power.
BrianDavion wrote:err no, I'm no expertt on eldar but as I understand it the paths are more a safeguard agaisnt the decadance of the old ways that destroyed the Aeldari empire of old.
Eldar were created by the old ones and obsess over things, therefore they were created to obsess over things. They had always obsessed, obsessing over decadence is what brought the fall. Paths were only made to contain the obsessions and prevent another fall. Through their obsessions, they unlock the power the old ones gave them.
BrianDavion wrote:no they weren't. other geneticly engineered warriors where forgotten ebcause they lost and thus the knowledge was ancient history. however we know for a fact that Luna was home to genetic engineers where where as good if not better.
I am sure the early Imperium would have kept their useful discoveries around. Also, as I understand Luna was mostly used for its gene factories and relics, not scientists.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There's very few to can match the influence of a Primarch, but there's humans who have. Cawl, Macharius, Creed, Yarrick - they're all humans who have done more than some Primarchs, let alone Space Marines.
Creed and Yarrick were each tied to one world, hardly galactic influence. Marcharious has his problems (his conquests didn't last, he might have been a saint, and he worked with 5 marine chapters; but I haven't read William King's books) and Cawl, if what you say is true, was guided by the Emperor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Besides, I thought you claimed that this wasn't about power, it was about influence or potential for greatness - by your metric, the T'au should have no characters because they're not blessed by a divine power.
It's not about who would win in fight. And the tau don't even have a galactic influence to measure as a race.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Great, the Emperor's a good weaponsmith. How does that make him a good biologist?
Are you claiming that a gun manufacturer nowadays could perform brain surgery?
Apparently: "The Emperor showed nothing but passionless interest. ‘Such rewriting of physiology certainly hinders the Twelfth’s higher brain function. The device is cunningly wrought, for something so crude.’ ‘Can you remove it?’ ‘Of course,’ the Emperor answered" (MoM)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what's your source that faith alone isn't enough to change the galaxy? Like, have you actually got any proof for that?
I think I really do have a problem with the idea that "the only people that matter are those who are "special" by divine providence", because that's explicitly not true. It's a nice headcanon, I guess, but beyond that, it's just not accurate in 40k canon. The whole idea of "if you're not blessed by a higher power, then you can't change the galaxy" is disproven on more places than I can count (Tyranids aren't blessed by a god, the Tau aren't blessed by gods, none of the Necron characters are favoured by the C'Tan*, and how about humans who have influenced things far beyond their means, like Yarrick, Creed, Macharius, or Kryptman). Like, their influence has changed the galaxy more than any random Space Marine has simply by being inducted into a Chapter.
And no, Cawl literally spoke to the Emperor, and was told that Cawl would do something that people would say "betrayed the Emperor", and was explicitly told by him that he should do it anyways. Is that not literally being guided by the Emperor? Not to mention one of Cawl's personalities directly working with the Emperor himself.
*if you want to argue that "the C'Tan empowered the Necrons, by that same virtue, a C'Tan empowers the Mechanicus, and it was either the C'Tan or Old Ones who apparently seeded human life, so by that virtue, all humans are "special".
Weren't humans also "created by the Old Ones (or C'Tan)"?
Just to clarify - you are genuinely suggesting that Newton had no personal brilliance or ability and was solely able to do what he did by divine power?
Because that's a real world argument right there which I'm very interested to hear you justify.
BrianDavion wrote:he was a direct STUDENT of the emperor's he learned his craft at the Emperor's feet. BTW the idea that you literally need divine intervention to change the galaxy is rediculas.
IRL, individual achievements are made with the help of others, building off their work or harnessing their work for something greater than the sum of its parts. In 40k, collective thoughts/action/belief manifests as gods/god-like beings, usually via the warp. Those who get themselves to be harnessed by these powers (the same way one man is chosen to lead many people), are able to achieve great achievements. What separates the two is that actions that could be done to achieve something great on one world are not sufficient to achieve something galactic in scale. This is what gives 40k it's scale. Creed is a great man who did great things using traditional means, but he was no god; he did not have a galactic impact, all his accomplishments were in regards to Cadia alone. Now the warp being the warp, every human has some psychic influence and is watched over by some god to some extent, but there is a difference between a normal plague marine and a daemon prince of nurgle, or a necron warrior and a necron lord (who was allowed to keep his personality by the Ctan). Egro, marines (grandsons of the emperor) are more capable of having a galactic impact than a normal techpriest. I'm not saying it's impossible for any one techpriest to be more important than any one marine, but you wouldn't expect the most important marine to be less important than the most important techpriest (the same way you wouldn't expect the weight lifting world record to be held by a little girl). But that's the case that Cawl used to put us in, but you seem to be adamant the Cawl had divine guidance, so his position makes sense relative to Calgar or Dante.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Why did they need divine power to do that?
Because the Emperor had: Thunder Warriors Custodes Bolters Power Armour A superior intelligence (note that many of the warlords are described as mad, which could be truth, or just historical bias) Psychic powers Better military strategy Simple luck
That's my point - much like the US had better funding and access to better scientists (you said it yourself!), the Emperor was able to create better super soldiers, because his military was superior (a military consisting of Thunder Warriors and Custodes) and had better scientists than the other warlords.
The Astartes weren't the instrument by which the Emperor conquered Terra. The Thunder Warriors and Custodes were. And regarding your "losing side's contributions didn't disappear" - yeah, that's because they actually had something worthwhile keeping. The pre-Astartes superhumans were not worth keeping any more than the Emperor's own pre-Astartes (Thunder Warriors) were. It's simple pragmatism. Keep what works, discard the rest - the Emperor didn't need the Astartes to conquer Terra, but he did need them to conquer the stars. But okay, if the Emperor was so brilliant, and it totally wasn't about him having better access to resources - why didn't he create the Space Marines first, instead of the Thunder Warriors?
I am intentionally conflating the thunder warriors project with the astartes project. I can only assume that both were large projects carried out with help from human scientists. I assume they were organized in a similar manner. (I think it is quite possible that the Primarch and Custodes project were carried out mostly by the emperor himself, but probably not.) Is there some reason why the Emperor would be personally involved in one and not the other? So if you accept that, then what I am wondering is why the Emperor's scientists were able to create the thunder warriors when they only had access to the Emperor's comparatively small, original lab and no state to fund them? All they had was the Emperor with his intelligence, both psychic and physical, but you are saying he did not help them. Are you saying that the Emperor's stockpile of resources was all they needed to out-compete the scientists of might empires?
And as far as the Astartes vs. Thunder warriors go, I think we both agree that conquering terra is a much different than conquering the galaxy, which is why the Emperor made them in the order he did. Picking the best tool for the job.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why? They were inferior scientists who didn't create anything as powerful as the Astartes. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.
In real life do we hear about the scientists thousands of years ago who accomplished nothing? No, because they accomplished nothing!
Or, hear me out - the Emperor's scientists were just more talented! Why is that so hard to consider? What's so impossible about simple human skill, talent and luck? In the real world, are you seriously suggesting that the only way you can succeed over someone else is by divine aid?
Why is that roundabout? Who said he even needed to use his divine power to find the best scientists! It's done in the real world without needing psychic powers! Hell, the Emperor may well have been recruiting scientists from conquered warlords, or simply sending emissaries to every compliant settlement offering security and glory for the scientifically gifted!
I genuinely don't understand how you completely reject the idea that his scientists were simply *better*.
During the Age of Strife, Terra was divided into warring states, each vying to create the best genetically engineered super-soldier to fight through the radiation soaked wastes. Every empire was searching for the best scientists to lead their labs, they wouldn't have become big empires if they didn't, if they weren't rational like that. Throughout those 5,000 years, one empire got the best scientists and another got the second best of that century. Maybe that shifted the balance of power, but it never lead to one empire ruling over Terra. Then when the Emperor came, he got the best scientists of that century (we can assume), I am wondering why his scientists broke that mold. Do you think they were such an order of magnitude better than all the best scientists of the past 5,000 years? If they were normal, once every hundred years, scientists then for every Archimedes in the Emperor's employ there would have been a Pythagoras under someone else, for every Newton a Leibniz, and for every Einstein a Shrodinger, for every Nasa you have the Soviet Space Agencies (they had 3 separate ones or something).
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You keep assuming that the Emperor HAD that knowledge in the first place. He was able to create the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, yes, but if he could only create them, why didn't he just create the Astartes first? Because he needed scientists who were more capable in biology than he was!
Do you think a 40,000 year old god(-like being) would have much to learn from a mortal human? All he asked Arkhan Land in MoM was to confirm the origin of the butcher's nails. I can't see him needing mortal humans for much more than that, doing tasks the Emperor could have done himself, saving him time.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational.
I think we have very different idea of what rationality is.
I think you haven't read Kim Jong Il's autobiography.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing about the "never seen the emperor keep any of the old warlords stuff" is that we don't know that to be true, as we know so little about the unification wars. for all we know the emperor stole an aweful lot from the old warlords.
Wasn’t Malcador rumored to be one of the old warlords?
Big if true.
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shortymcnostrill wrote:Well actually eldar were made by the old ones to fight the necrons/ctan. After the war in heaven the eldar society was post-scarcity without external threats. This was very boring for them, and to combat this boredom they sank into more and more questionable behavior. This is what eventually led to the fall; boredom, not obsession. After that the craftworlders created the path system, where an eldar focuses on a specific path. The ones who become obsessed with a path are the ones we know as exarchs and farseers (and other, unnamed ones for other paths). This is not something the eldar aspire to, they describe these individuals as lost on/to their path.
Mucking about does not create a chaos god (except for the chaos god of mucking about). The Eldar would have had to be obsessive over whatever they chose to focus on, really believe in being profligates, in order to spawn a chaos god.
As a result (@Sgt_Smudge) it is reasonable to assume that most all warlords of old earth would have been working towards something like the method used to finally conquer earth. As a result, it is unrealistic to assume that one group of scientists is somehow exponentially better than another group of scientists. It is an assumption you are making that I don't agree with, just as you don't agree with my assumption that the thunder warrior project was similar to the Astartes project, and we disagree on whether or not the Emperor is near-omniscient, and what "special" and "influence" means, and who is or is not divinely empowered in 40k (for example, I can and will read The Great Work and concluded that whenever Sedayne boosts about what he accomplished by himself that it was just the Emperor implanting the solution in his head). There is no way to reconcile these different assumptions; they are just that, assumptions. But you are objectively wrong that collective work does not spontaneously create progress.
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Obsession is not an emotion, I never said it was; only when it is applied can it create/do something (like create a chaos god or make you really good at something). All emotion requires some form of investment, be it mild or extreme.
Students =/= scientists. Nevertheless, the top tower was never hundreds of time taller than another tower; the only exceptions being those towers that never got off the ground. They never stood a chance, so I don't count them, Much the same way I don't count unholy hybrids of warzone and pit mine like the Congo. A more fruitful comparison would be to ask how much better MIT is compared to BIT (Berlin Institute of Technology). To bring this metaphor back to the argument, intrinsic human constraints mean that there will not be differences between top achievers (which is a prerequisite for being a scientist) large enough to answer for what the Emperor's scientists accomplished compared to the other scientists. Mortal humans simply do not have the time to stratify themselves like that.
As far as funding during the Unification Wars goes, the Emperor was on the back foot in that when he created the thunder warriors. His territory was much poorer than other technobarbarian states, compare the GDP of Nepal (his Himalazia) to France (Franc) or Brasil (Hy Brasil) or the US (Merica) throughout time. Assuming the Emperor used his god-like powers to secure resources for his scientists and not to directly help them is a big stretch, I am sure a near infinitely powerful psyker could do something for most any project. Furthermore, I am sure the technobarbarians had no limits on morals, I don't know of many who do in 40k. And we have already discussed Einstein as being overrated, quantum mechanics was the main focus of most physics at the time, not relativity; and even Newton's version of calculus was inferior to Leibniz's.
@BrianDavion
So did the Emperor have some kind of El Dorado up in the mountains? The best description we have seen was in Two Metaphysical Blades, all that showed was some laborers and machines in a cave. Even the Custodians during that time needed to scrounge for resources, Constain Valdor didn't get auramite armor until halfway through the wars. The Emperor was not rich in those days. And do you really believe that Nepal, an increadily mountainous country with few natural resources, will ever become the major industrial powerhouse? Even the swiss economy is mostly built on services and luxury goods.
@H
All of those conditions that would apply during the unification wars would be limiting factors that would only magnify intrinsic human limitations. The only exception being the Emperor, and I don't think you and I disagree with the extent of his involvement. Some (Smudge and Davion) seem to think that the Emperor was really not directly involved in the Astartes and Thunder Warrior projects.
@H
The emperor doesn't talk to people so much as he psychically implants thoughts in their mind, so who knows the form of his actual involvement. All I am sure of that it happened and that idea that something like the space marines, thunder warriors, primaris marines, etc. could have been made without his involvement is silly when both are so connected to each other and are integral to 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Indulgence did create Slaanesh. The Eldar's obsessive nature created their indulgence. Emotions are influenced by personality traits.
I won't bother rewriting my previous posts. I have already said why I discount some factions an only look at the front runners (it's in the quote you cited) and the account of the Emperor preunification wars we have (two metaphyical blades), and most importantly why the fact that one is better than the other doesn't matter for my argument, but the unaided magnitude is what I object to (would you do something 100 times faster than me?).
But I will refute your Leibniz claim, all modern Calculus notation is based on his work and not Newton's; dy/dx and the integrals symbol are from him, not Newton.
I'm surprised the Emperor didn't stockpile some auramite during the DAoT, high tech stuff was plentiful them. It's your theory based on the Emperor stockpiling resources for his scientists to use?
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1W 1A to 2W 2A implies a VERY big difference. Just how many human-like infantry has two wound?
The Primaris are described as very much better than normal marines.
Marines 2.0, then. A big improvement over marines 1.0.
The only special Primaris organs are the
• Sinew Coils - something like vat-grown muscles that you would find implanted into a hive ganger, crude but effective. They are basically just additional muscles added around key joints. We can assume there is not enough normal muscle there to gene bulk in order to suit Cawl's tastes, so he added some. We can also assume they have some ferrometallic component from the alternate name (the steel within), and are probably intended to provide joint protection as much as additional strength.
• Belisarian Furnace - An organ that cannibalizes a marine's body to keep him alive when needed. There is a good description of it working in Plague War, same for the sinew coils.
• Immortalis Glad - We don't really know what it does, neither does Cawl, I think. The best guess is that it is like steroids for steroids, increasing the effectiveness of the bone and muscle growth organs. It's what gives primarines their height.
Based off of this list, you can see how additional wounds and attacks are the only real way to represent primaris marines on the tabletop (without S5/T5 marines). I think the scale is completely off, however. A 6+ FNP (or equivalent, say what FW Graia has) and additional melee hits on a hit roll of 6+ would be far more in scale. However, the primaris stat line (AP -1 bolters included) is what normal marines should have always had in 40k (at least 8th edition 40k), so I don't know what to say.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'd say more like 1.5 but they have the whole shebang; organs, armor, specialist armor, equipment, additional types of armor, vehicles, everything Marine has a new version. 2.0 is appropriate IMO. That said, a second edition is still 'merely' a revised version of the first...
