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Well, it's a significant upgrade, hence “marines 2.0”

but not an unreasonable one, and chances are Cawl just finished work on some implants that the marine team ahd initally wanted to do. It's worth noting that he had other implants he also wanted to give them but couldn't make work right. So the three implants are just the three he managed to get to work right. suddenly it seems a lot more typical don't it, Cawl has sucesses and failures and Primaris is simply "the best he could do in ten thousand years"

More difference than between all the previous marks of armor though, so… armor 2.0.

Yet again evolutionary. Power armor has always been modular it's why you can put a MK IV head on a MK 7 torso with MK 3 vambraces. Cawl just took this to a logical next step. It's an improvement but not some huge quantum leap that should be impossiable for a "mere mortal" to make. give me ten thousand years and I could figure out a modular armor system.

Some improvement rather than an entire redesign? Sounds like a 2.0 version rather than new gun name to me then.

indeed. mild improvements, the same thing every army has over time, even old Marines have differant models of bolters etc. the big differance is the bolt rifle is bigger, with a longer barrel.

No, clearly not. It's not yet another rhino/land raider/dreadnought/land speeder chassis with a new weapon on top of it. Hover STS other than land speeder were supposed to be lost.

sure but in this case the Hull is a modifcation of a STC. the reuplsor panels are basicly just copies of the ones from the land speeder. taking land speeder hover panels and slapping them on a land raider isn't exactly a new idea, Arkham Land did it and there are other referances to hover land raiders etc out there, Cawl presumably used that as a basis for his work.

Not supernaturally protected. Just placebo effect/willpower. Will continue fighting even when mortally wounded.

a placebo effect that produces actual real miracles?
........ right

BrianDavion wrote:
but not an unreasonable one, and chances are Cawl just finished work on some implants that the marine team ahd initally wanted to do. It's worth noting that he had other implants he also wanted to give them but couldn't make work right. So the three implants are just the three he managed to get to work right. suddenly it seems a lot more typical don't it, Cawl has sucesses and failures and Primaris is simply "the best he could do in ten thousand years"

1W 1A to 2W 2A implies a VERY big difference. Just how many human-like infantry has two wound?
The Primaris are described as very much better than normal marines.
Marines 2.0, then. A big improvement over marines 1.0.

BrianDavion wrote:
Yet again evolutionary. Power armor has always been modular it's why you can put a MK IV head on a MK 7 torso with MK 3 vambraces. Cawl just took this to a logical next step. It's an improvement but not some huge quantum leap that should be impossiable for a "mere mortal" to make. give me ten thousand years and I could figure out a modular armor system.

Doesn't the new armor give stuff like +1T in some config, etc?

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed. mild improvements, the same thing every army has over time, even old Marines have differant models of bolters etc. the big differance is the bolt rifle is bigger, with a longer barrel.

The big difference is that the thousands of different models of lasgun, some of which are recycled trash given to expendable convicts, some of which are elite soldiers using heirloom, mastercrafted weapons, all share the same name and profile. So did the previous different models of bolters. Yet the new Cawl bolters have a different, more powerful profile.

BrianDavion wrote:
sure but in this case the Hull is a modifcation of a STC.

A modification of an STC. Not an exchange of weapons, a real modification of an STC, these barely understood piece of archeotech. That's a huge deal. (And the Repulsor doesn't look at all like a land raider, neither a grounded one nor an antigrav one, if you ask me).


Generally, all of this gives the impression that Cawl really significantly improved on everything marine-related. Not just one aspect, all of them.

BrianDavion wrote:
a placebo effect that produces actual real miracles?
........ right

It's basically the “Feel no pain” rule, you know? People fighting despite being mortally wounded. Except here, it's willpower.
It's sometime presented as obviously miracle now, but it used to be presented in a much more ambiguous way. All the effects could be explained both way, and I think it works much better with the ambiguity.

No sisters of battle's acts of faith are a lot more then just a 6 up feel no pain. you can literally have sisters of battle returning from death.

BrianDavion wrote:
No sisters of battle's acts of faith are a lot more then just a 6 up feel no pain. you can literally have sisters of battle returning from death.

Returning from being counted as a casualty, which is very different from returning from death. Some medics have similar rules. Only one who arguably straight up comes back from death is Celestine. I'm not sure I didn't read Gathering Storm.
The BL Sister Miriya stories don't present Sisters as walking miracle dispensers and I'm pretty happy about it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

1W 1A to 2W 2A implies a VERY big difference. Just how many human-like infantry has two wound?
The Primaris are described as very much better than normal marines.
Marines 2.0, then. A big improvement over marines 1.0.

The only special Primaris organs are the
• Sinew Coils - something like vat-grown muscles that you would find implanted into a hive ganger, crude but effective. They are basically just additional muscles added around key joints. We can assume there is not enough normal muscle there to gene bulk in order to suit Cawl's tastes, so he added some. We can also assume they have some ferrometallic component from the alternate name (the steel within), and are probably intended to provide joint protection as much as additional strength.
• Belisarian Furnace - An organ that cannibalizes a marine's body to keep him alive when needed. There is a good description of it working in Plague War, same for the sinew coils.
• Immortalis Glad - We don't really know what it does, neither does Cawl, I think. The best guess is that it is like steroids for steroids, increasing the effectiveness of the bone and muscle growth organs. It's what gives primarines their height.

Based off of this list, you can see how additional wounds and attacks are the only real way to represent primaris marines on the tabletop (without S5/T5 marines). I think the scale is completely off, however. A 6+ FNP (or equivalent, say what FW Graia has) and additional melee hits on a hit roll of 6+ would be far more in scale. However, the primaris stat line (AP -1 bolters included) is what normal marines should have always had in 40k (at least 8th edition 40k), so I don't know what to say.

can we please not hijack a lore discussion with rules meanderings?

Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!

I'd say more like 1.5 but they have the whole shebang; organs, armor, specialist armor, equipment, additional types of armor, vehicles, everything Marine has a new version. 2.0 is appropriate IMO. That said, a second edition is still 'merely' a revised version of the first...

 Eipi10 wrote:
The only special Primaris organs are the
• Sinew Coils - something like vat-grown muscles that you would find implanted into a hive ganger, crude but effective. They are basically just additional muscles added around key joints. We can assume there is not enough normal muscle there to gene bulk in order to suit Cawl's tastes, so he added some. We can also assume they have some ferrometallic component from the alternate name (the steel within), and are probably intended to provide joint protection as much as additional strength.
• Belisarian Furnace - An organ that cannibalizes a marine's body to keep him alive when needed. There is a good description of it working in Plague War, same for the sinew coils.
• Immortalis Glad - We don't really know what it does, neither does Cawl, I think. The best guess is that it is like steroids for steroids, increasing the effectiveness of the bone and muscle growth organs. It's what gives primarines their height.

Yeah but so what? We have only 3 new weird pseudosciencemagic items, it still makes them massively more powerful.

 Eipi10 wrote:
Based off of this list, you can see how additional wounds and attacks are the only real way to represent primaris marines on the tabletop

Uh, no? Not at all?

 Eipi10 wrote:
However, the primaris stat line (AP -1 bolters included) is what normal marines should have always had in 40k (at least 8th edition 40k)

Still disagree.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'd say more like 1.5 but they have the whole shebang; organs, armor, specialist armor, equipment, additional types of armor, vehicles, everything Marine has a new version. 2.0 is appropriate IMO. That said, a second edition is still 'merely' a revised version of the first...

Weren't the GK supposed to be Marine 1.5?

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!

Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.

 Psionara wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!

Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.

When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*

BrianDavion wrote:

 Psionara wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!

Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.

When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*

Ah, so he didn't directly swear fealty, but feigned it under the impression that since he had his superior did so, that he could fly under the radar and sabotage the Warmaster's efforts. Clever.

 Psionara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Psionara wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!

Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.

When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*

Ah, so he didn't directly swear fealty, but feigned it under the impression that since he had his superior did so, that he could fly under the radar and sabotage the Warmaster's efforts. Clever.

well it was hardly a master plan, he just kept his head down and made use of the oppertunity, go read the HH novel Wolfsbane. it's a great read and explains it all

It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

 godardc wrote:
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"

godardc wrote:It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

So, you didn't read the book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psionara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Psionara wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!

Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.

When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*

Ah, so he didn't directly swear fealty, but feigned it under the impression that since he had his superior did so, that he could fly under the radar and sabotage the Warmaster's efforts. Clever.

Pretty much. It would be like turning round and claiming that Tarvitz, Garro and Qruze were all traitors because they weren't deployed on Istvaan III and weren't chosen to be purged by their Primarchs. He faked loyalty to Horus but was never swayed by him or tempted by Chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"

When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"

When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.

He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point

I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"

When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.

He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point

I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?

We've meant different things by everyone I think. You seem to mean he hops between Mechanicum sects while I meant he hops between species. Like Fabius studied with Haemonculus, Cawl should have studied with Xenos like a less Chaosy Fabius.
That's because you're reducing it. It's more what is Cawl doing for Guilliman? What did Guilliman do to get this guy bouncing around the races to stay in place? And so on.

So his consequence is he can't get a job he doesn't want? That's like saying a consequence for the Space Wolves rebelliousness is that they'll never get to sit down on Terra and paint rainbows. The Imperium is a place where despite being viewed as a kind of angel the church still assassinates Space Wolves but Cawl losing a friend and not getting a job is nothing by comparison. He's blatantly made AI and anyone not a Mary Sue would be spending their time dodging the various people shooting at him in that moment or hiding very far from other people.

he's also only appered in 5 books counting novels and codices so far.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"

When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.

He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point

I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?

We've meant different things by everyone I think. You seem to mean he hops between Mechanicum sects while I meant he hops between species. Like Fabius studied with Haemonculus, Cawl should have studied with Xenos like a less Chaosy Fabius..

He has already done this, did he not learn how to revive Rowboat with Eldar tech? Did he not learn from and then merge with a Necron facility, gain control over the scarabs, and trick a C'tan? he is a devout disciple of Xenos tech, he actually states that the Necron facilities and pylons are the key to closing the warp rifts.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.

guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"

When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.

He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point

I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?

We've meant different things by everyone I think. You seem to mean he hops between Mechanicum sects while I meant he hops between species. Like Fabius studied with Haemonculus, Cawl should have studied with Xenos like a less Chaosy Fabius..

He has already done this, did he not learn how to revive Rowboat with Eldar tech? Did he not learn from and then merge with a Necron facility, gain control over the scarabs, and trick a C'tan? he is a devout disciple of Xenos tech, he actually states that the Necron facilities and pylons are the key to closing the warp rifts.

Last I checked he Ynnari revived Guilliman via their god. He's hardly a devout disciple when he has no training in them, nobody teaching it to him and all he's done is watch someone do a thing and hijack a building.

pm713 wrote:

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:
He has already done this, did he not learn how to revive Rowboat with Eldar tech? Did he not learn from and then merge with a Necron facility, gain control over the scarabs, and trick a C'tan? he is a devout disciple of Xenos tech, he actually states that the Necron facilities and pylons are the key to closing the warp rifts.

Last I checked he Ynnari revived Guilliman via their god. He's hardly a devout disciple when he has no training in them, nobody teaching it to him and all he's done is watch someone do a thing and hijack a building.

I agree that he's not exactly "learned" from the Ynnari, but the Necrons? Like, our first introduction to him has him being a pretty smart guy on Necron tech having learned from Trazyn about the pylons on Cadia, and presumably more. I'd say he's very much learned from them, and may be one of the most foremost adepts of the Mechanicus on Necron tech.

That doesn't explain his knowledge on Space Marine biology (his connection to one of the initial scientists does though), but it certainly fulfils the "he studied with a non-Imperial scientist" that you claimed would make him not!Mary-Sue.

On a very small scale, yes.

pm713 wrote:
On a very small scale, yes.

small scale? well i guess everyone has their own scales..

I for one do not consider learning from and then Hacking an entire xenos race, small, but you might.

anyway the proof is there he activley studies xenos tech by what ever scale you might use.

as for his biologist skills he absorbed them from the lady Astartes, and Sirdayne (who developed the black carapace) when he merged with them.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

pm713 wrote:
On a very small scale, yes.

small scale? well i guess everyone has their own scales..

I for one do not consider learning from and then Hacking an entire xenos race, small, but you might.

anyway the proof is there he activley studies xenos tech by what ever scale you might use.

as for his biologist skills he absorbed them from the lady Astartes, and Sirdayne (who developed the black carapace) when he merged with them.

he never merged with Astartes.

WOW he just put grimdark in grimdark so he can grimdark while he is grimdark

sajmonikpl1 wrote:
WOW he just put grimdark in grimdark so he can grimdark while he is grimdark

I like to think of it as, he avoided the grimdark long enough to absorb some grimdark, so when the grimdark caught up he WAS the grimdark.

Did they say if Cawl was going to wake up all the the hibernating IFs on the Phalanx? If I remember right theres like a 10 chapters worth of them sleeping.