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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/09/30 23:35:47
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
Utah
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I'm thinking of getting a resin 3D printer to make miniatures and spare parts. (Avoiding FDM due to lack of detail.)
Debating between SLA and DLP.
I have heard that the LCD screen on DLP machines can burn out fairly often (but you can print multiple things at once without increasing print time).
And havent heard much on SLA other than the print times are pretty long.
Any recommendations or things to watch out for?
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"Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play." "This is Chaos. We don't "ka-frickin'-boom" here." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 00:28:52
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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You're pretty much getting a DLP if you're buying a hobby grade resin printer, there's a handful of models, the Photon being the most known, all on the same price bracket, offering similar results with similar specs.
I'm not aware of an SLA printer that's popular for the things we use them for.
Don't discount FDM entirely. There's isn't a lack of detail, simply lines inherent to the technology at the layer change on rounded surfaces, but they do have advantages in print volume and cost that makes them work well for certain tasks.
While I agree I've yet to see an example of a 28mm humanoid mini printed on an FDM machine that I'd consider acceptable, not everyone is as fussy as me and there are many who seem to be quite happy with the results obtainable. An FDM machine will also handily slap a resin machine when it comes to large monsters, where the larger volume is a big advantage and the layer lines can be mitigated.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 11:20:32
Subject: Re:3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Before you go all in on this, here are a few pieces of information that might help you pick a better option:
There are no "affordable" 3D printers that can make a proper 28mm miniature. You will have lots of finishing to do with Green Stuff or Milliput to have one good master.
3D printers break, all the time. It's a lot of maintenance and learning to make the things work properly.
It also costs a lot more than just that cheap anycubic photon and one resin container. There's cleanup, more resin, more resin tanks, mods, etc.
If your objective is just to make a few parts in 28mm scale (like bits and guns and helmets and human-size miniatures), please consider actual professional 3D printing like shapeways transparent fine detail prints, they're miles ahead of anything you could make with affordable printers, and you can just recast your prints (recasting kit costs about 300 to 400 to cast better than FW). They are expensive per print, but you are saving the time and money invested in making 3d printing work for you and ultimately reaching an approximate result you need to clean up afterwards.
If you're going for bigger things like Vehicles, a good FDM is more than enough to create the basic parts, which you will then have to finish with Green Stuff / Milliput for a proper master. (Either cheap Tevo Tarantula, or DIY Voron 2.1 for a real pro printer within a reasonable budget)
If you want iterative development at home, you might want to get a resin printer, I would wait for the Prusa to get something that's actually well-built and smartly-designed.
You'll still want any final prints to be done on a proper (read insanely expensive) professional printer, at shapeways or other similar online service.
In many ways, it can be a lot more interesting to learn sculpting and recasting, than 3D modelling and messing with a 3D printer.
The way we use 3D printing for 40K (vehicles, titan head, super heavy, ...) is that we have an excellent FDM printer to make a "rough" print, which we then finish with miniature prepping techniques just like resin miniatures (GS, milliput, sanding, sculpting), then we recast that one good master.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/01 11:22:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 13:28:15
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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How good are Shapeways prints these days? I used them to try printing one of my minis a few years ago, and the details came out pretty soft, and it had a kind of "sandy" feel, not very smooth. Are they any better now? Like enough to get a high detail prototype to make resin minis from?
If you really want to get into 3D printing, I would suggest going with an Anycubic Photon printer, you can get them relatively cheap these days compared to other printers. It can capture a lot of great detail for the price, but there is a bit of a learning curve. You will need to clean your prints in alcohol and also let the prints cure under a UV lamp for a while. And you absolutely must print in a well ventilated area. I had one for a short time before She Who Must Be Obeyed decreed that it smells like crap and shouldn't be in the house ever. 3D printed minis are also more brittle than your traditional resin, they can break easily if you have lots of small parts like guns and swords and stuff do you may need to be a little more careful when playing with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 14:16:28
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Necros wrote:How good are Shapeways prints these days? I used them to try printing one of my minis a few years ago, and the details came out pretty soft, and it had a kind of "sandy" feel, not very smooth. Are they any better now? Like enough to get a high detail prototype to make resin minis from?
If you really want to get into 3D printing, I would suggest going with an Anycubic Photon printer, you can get them relatively cheap these days compared to other printers. It can capture a lot of great detail for the price, but there is a bit of a learning curve. You will need to clean your prints in alcohol and also let the prints cure under a UV lamp for a while. And you absolutely must print in a well ventilated area. I had one for a short time before She Who Must Be Obeyed decreed that it smells like crap and shouldn't be in the house ever. 3D printed minis are also more brittle than your traditional resin, they can break easily if you have lots of small parts like guns and swords and stuff do you may need to be a little more careful when playing with them.
Anycubic Photon is nowhere near close to Shapeways Smooth Fine Detail Plastic, and they have another better version of that if that's still not good enough.
You can't do a finished mini with a photon, it will always have either resolution issues or visible lines.
The brittleness of the resin is really down to your resin.
My FDM pieces out of ABS are completely indestructible compared to any other miniature and might even survive falls better than white metal.
My resin casts are really tough, on par with or stronger than GW's plastics.
I don't really know how the resin from the Photon or Shapeway compare in those terms, but as explained before: you don't want to mass produce using 3D printing, it's just a good way to get a high-detail master without too much trouble.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/01 14:21:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 14:31:16
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Brittle items from a resin printer is usually a sign that the curing time per layer is too long BTW. This isn't a characteristic of DLP printing as a whole.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 14:39:33
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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I was just looking at shapeways, looks like they have a smooth fine detail for an extra $2.50. Are their ABS options any good for detail?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 14:48:44
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Necros wrote:I was just looking at shapeways, looks like they have a smooth fine detail for an extra $2.50. Are their ABS options any good for detail?
I have only seen quite a few reviews of them, and all that were discussing detail at 28mm scale or below were on that fine detail smooth translucent plastic.
I don't think it's going to be fragile though, it would be quite weird. A proper 3D print with 100% infill and proper material settings is at least 90% of the strength of non-printed continuous material, so definitely stronger than most casting resins. ABS is overkill.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 15:58:15
Subject: Re:3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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I'm sorry but I have to call this one out. Don't take it as an offense.
Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:There are no "affordable" 3D printers that can make a proper 28mm miniature. You will have lots of finishing to do with Green Stuff or Milliput to have one good master.
While it's true that you won't get a professional grade, injection molding level of miniatures. It depends on what you define as "affordable", but due to ever decreasing entry cost of quality 3d printers, there are a lot of high-level hobby grade printers that'll run you anywhere from $300~$600 which will serve your general needs. Note, this won't exactly replace your budget on your plastic cracks.
Moreover, a good 3d model will prevent the need to "finish" the printed model - which then comes down to one's fluency in 3d modelling as opposed to physical limitations of a 3d printer.
Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:3D printers break, all the time. It's a lot of maintenance and learning to make the things work properly.
True. It's important for people new to 3d printing to know that 3d printer is not a foolproof nor a one-time purchase. There will be a lot of additional cost of upkeep.
Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:It also costs a lot more than just that cheap anycubic photon and one resin container. There's cleanup, more resin, more resin tanks, mods, etc.
Again, cost of upkeep.
Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:If your objective is just to make a few parts in 28mm scale (like bits and guns and helmets and human-size miniatures), please consider actual professional 3D printing like shapeways transparent fine detail prints, they're miles ahead of anything you could make with affordable printers, and you can just recast your prints (recasting kit costs about 300 to 400 to cast better than FW). They are expensive per print, but you are saving the time and money invested in making 3d printing work for you and ultimately reaching an approximate result you need to clean up afterwards.
Learning to 3d print is very rewarding - it's another aspect of the hobby in its own. While I agree that if you're looking to make very few items and be done with it, the start up cost of 3d printing may not be worth it. However, I very much recommend it if you're looking into getting into 3d printing as a hobby.
As above, it's more about the user's fluency & skill level than a machine limitation.
Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:If you're going for bigger things like Vehicles, a good FDM is more than enough to create the basic parts, which you will then have to finish with Green Stuff / Milliput for a proper master. (Either cheap Tevo Tarantula, or DIY Voron 2.1 for a real pro printer within a reasonable budget)
The way we use 3D printing for 40K (vehicles, titan head, super heavy, ...) is that we have an excellent FDM printer to make a "rough" print, which we then finish with miniature prepping techniques just like resin miniatures ( GS, milliput, sanding, sculpting), then we recast that one good master.
This is more of a valid argument for resalers, and not necessary hobbyists.
All in all, if you're looking into 3d printing as a means to substitute having to buy store-sold miniatures, you're in for a rude awakening. However, it is an awesome hobby if you're into 3d modelling and making it come to life. Automatically Appended Next Post: Azreal13 wrote:Brittle items from a resin printer is usually a sign that the curing time per layer is too long BTW. This isn't a characteristic of DLP printing as a whole.
It's resin issue.
Cleavage (the peeling at the striations) is the result of long cure time.
Cracking/explosions generally occur during post processing due to shot cure time, when the outer resin cures faster than the resin in the inner core (much like what happens to an egg if you try to microwave it).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/01 16:02:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 16:32:03
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Fair enough, much of my knowledge of DLP is second hand from researching ahead of a purchase. But it is possible to mitigate a brittle resin with additives is it not?
As for everything else, that mirrors what I would have written earlier if I'd had time, nothing from the post you've quotes really relates to my experiences with FDM or my observations of DLP.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 16:45:54
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Azreal13 wrote:Fair enough, much of my knowledge of DLP is second hand from researching ahead of a purchase. But it is possible to mitigate a brittle resin with additives is it not?
In theory, yes. However, it will require knowledge of the composition of the resin you have. Unless you're a chemist, it's more often easier to purchase from a reputable source. I used to run a 3d print shop, so I've had experiences working with 3d printers since 1st gen stratasys. Most case of brittle print is a result of incompatible resin (if not outright bad batch) for the specific printer. Most resin manufacturers generally follow the current industry stand specs for 45um wavelength. There are other resin with different specs so you'll need to research them before hand.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/01 17:07:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 18:57:18
Subject: Re:3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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skchsan wrote:I'm sorry but I have to call this one out. Don't take it as an offense.
Thanks for presenting the hobby aspect, I was mostly worried the OP thought he could get GW plastic or FW resin equivalent 3d prints by just buying a photon and clicking print.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 20:36:32
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Courageous Questing Knight
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I started with an A8 clone kit that i built and learned so much. Then moved up to an Ender 3 Pro. While still FDM, it was massively better than my A8. Now wanting even better results for 28-32mm minis, I have gone resin (Elegoo Mars) and cannot be happier. I agree, a big learning curve, but no more than the learning curve you had to start playing your game. And it is a fun hobby.
I would say getting a printer is for someone that has either a looooong list of things they want to print, or just is always printing something or other. If you just have a few items you want, yes, a service to print them for you could be less expensive and less of a headache.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 20:47:06
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Leader of the Sept
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Really interesting to do see the discussion here, especially about the quality side of things.
Albertorius has been posting his experiences in the P&M boards and seems to be getting perfect finishes out of his Photon at 20 micron print layer
As explained here.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/777911.page#10512571
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Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 20:55:47
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Flinty wrote:Really interesting to do see the discussion here, especially about the quality side of things.
Albertorius has been posting his experiences in the P&M boards and seems to be getting perfect finishes out of his Photon at 20 micron print layer
Yeah I looked at his thread recently.
That, to me, is dull detail with a thick coat of paint and rough texture.
I feel that comparing that with either GW or FW does not work for everyone.
If you look at his 50 mic version, you'll see that it does have more layer lines, but also sharper detail, probably because he didn't go as heavy on the undercoat or maybe that's how the photon does 20mic, i.e. less accurate in XY.
One last problem with cheap DLP, you have a set XY resolution which isn't all that great. I know it's improving and it's good enough for many people, it's just not equivalent to a production miniature.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/01 20:57:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 21:17:35
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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i'm currently looking at the new Form 3. It's SLA and quite a bit more expensive than a Photon. I need something that is all enclosed and can be kept in the garage in the winter and summer. It can get down to around 30 degrees F in our garage in the winter. So I need something with a heated bed and all that stuff. Planning to use it for master minis that I can send to our painters or play testers, or small production runs for minis that I don't think will sell a lot of.. or special things like if someone wanted a 54mm version of one of our sculpts.
From what I've read the Form 3 has improved on the detail that the Form 2 could do, and I like the idea of their cartridge system and apparently their gray resin doesn't need to be UV cured in the end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 21:31:14
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Leader of the Sept
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Kanpeki Miniatures wrote: Flinty wrote:Really interesting to do see the discussion here, especially about the quality side of things.
Albertorius has been posting his experiences in the P&M boards and seems to be getting perfect finishes out of his Photon at 20 micron print layer
Yeah I looked at his thread recently.
That, to me, is dull detail with a thick coat of paint and rough texture.
I feel that comparing that with either GW or FW does not work for everyone.
If you look at his 50 mic version, you'll see that it does have more layer lines, but also sharper detail, probably because he didn't go as heavy on the undercoat or maybe that's how the photon does 20mic, i.e. less accurate in XY.
One last problem with cheap DLP, you have a set XY resolution which isn't all that great. I know it's improving and it's good enough for many people, it's just not equivalent to a production miniature.
Fair points. And I see what you mean about the 20 micron version looking a bit less crisp on some of the edges. I was mainly pointing to it as an example of how smooth that it seems to be able to do surfaces. He also has a lot of epic scale tanks done with pretty damn small details showing nicely.
I'm definately getting closer and closer to picking up a printer and having a play. Roll on black friday
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Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 22:19:25
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Yeah. I really wanted to buy one of these, be it the photon or something else below 1k, but it didn't seem to be able to realistically match sculpture / GW / FW levels of detail reliably.
However, I think we're at most one generation or one price range away from that, the form printers probably do a good enough job, and 2 or 3 years should be enough for 500 bucks resin printers to get there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 22:26:57
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Leader of the Sept
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For me the Photon s seems to have the edge still with apparently the smallest z layer height but the Duplicator D7+ and the Flyingbear Shine seem to have somewhat taller build volumes for not much more.
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Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/01 23:31:58
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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On the DLP side of things, If you're contemplating a photon, get an Epax X1 instead. It's like a pre-upgraded photon or a photon-s where you don't have to use different utilities. Photon issues include: an unnecessary interior fan that fills your room with stinky resin smell. why pass air across your resin vat and then expel it into the room? firmware issues. The latest one is causing power fade outs. incorrect test file settings. The file the printer comes with and the one supplied on their website has the wrong settings so if you print it to test and troubleshoot your printer, you'll be getting failed prints even when your printer is working fine. loads of failed prints from levelling issues. lots of people have to use an alternate method to level their build plate and some people are getting build plates that are wavy and have to either return/replace them or get them smoothed properly at a machine shop. sample resin is super stinky. I don't know what's in it, but pretty much every other resin smells way less. the way the case/box opens makes things a bit annoying to access inside. And the door swings on top past the back of the printer, limiting it's placement on your desk. The Elegoo Mars is another cheaper option if you don't want to spend the extra. It's only real issue is that the USB port is on the back of the machine. Automatically Appended Next Post: As for print quality, check out Albertorius' epic scale iron warriors (done on a photon): Is a DLP resin printer going to make perfect prototypes for professional mould making? No. Is it going to make miniatures you're more than happy with for painting and playing with, yes. Automatically Appended Next Post: A break down of consumables for a DLP: Resin costs about a tenth of a similar sized warhammer miniature sells for. So if a chunky miniature costs $6 (say a box of 10 for $60), expect to spend about 60 cents for the resin once you factor in supports and other ways resin is wasted for printing a similar sized miniature. Also, not all resin is created equal. Some are very brittle and are great for display and large pieces and bad for handling/gaming. I like Elegoo Grey, but Siraya Tech Blu has a great reputation. I also know loads of people mix in 10% in by volume of Saraya Tech Tenacious into their Elegoo Grey. Elegoo Grey just changed it's formula to be stronger and less brittle, so I'll probably stop doing that once my current batch runs out. Though if I was printing thin swords or spears, I'd probably add it back in. FEP Film - on the underside of the vat is a clear non stick film. They eventually go foggy and get damaged. Some people have them last half a year, others a couple months. They vary in price, but I order my replacement ones on amazon (the 3dclub one). The sheets are double the size you need, so I get 8 for about $20-30. Screen - the LCD screen, but not the UV lamp, lasts many people about 1000-1500 hours of printing. So daily users of the printer replace there's two, three or four times a year. They're about $30-40 dollars each. Automatically Appended Next Post: Another of Albertorius' painted prints. Notice the layer lines right on the helmet. 1000 or 800 grit sandpaper with a bit of water will largely disguise the biggest offenders without really destroying any detail.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/10/01 23:59:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/02 11:51:19
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Chamberlain wrote:
Is a DLP resin printer going to make perfect prototypes for professional mould making? No. Is it going to make miniatures you're more than happy with for painting and playing with, yes.
I think this is really a matter of opinion, and that's why it's very important that you share yours.
Some people don't care about mold lines, some people will be more than happy to play with those miniatures, and Epic casts in general are not that great to begin with so it won't look out of place.
With the amount of work I have already put in prepping miniatures to make them much better than just assembled bits of plastic and resin (i.e. gap filling and re-sculpting), the lack of quality of these prints is a blocking factor.
Considering that painting decently takes a large amount of time or money, makes cheaping out on miniatures a questionable pursuit.
Maybe a better way to put it is that, if you're interested in the 3D printing hobby, know that you are going to trade time for money and will have to work hard at cleaning up miniatures without ever reaching quality parity with production miniatures, then yes, a $500 DLP printer is definitely the best choice.
I just want to avoid yet another "3D printing enthusiast" buying a machine, discovering that it's a pain in the ass and that it can't really do everything they said it would, spend time and money trying to make it do what it really can't, and then have it lying around in their basement because it's too much work.
Of course, if you can find any example of a cheap DLP coming anywhere close to injection plastics (or even resin, one can dream), I'm very very interested and will buy one if it actually does that.
Chamberlain wrote:
Another of Albertorius' painted prints. Notice the layer lines right on the helmet. 1000 or 800 grit sandpaper with a bit of water will largely disguise the biggest offenders without really destroying any detail.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 11:54:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/02 14:01:59
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Barpharanges
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Necros wrote:i'm currently looking at the new Form 3. It's SLA and quite a bit more expensive than a Photon. I need something that is all enclosed and can be kept in the garage in the winter and summer. It can get down to around 30 degrees F in our garage in the winter. So I need something with a heated bed and all that stuff. Planning to use it for master minis that I can send to our painters or play testers, or small production runs for minis that I don't think will sell a lot of.. or special things like if someone wanted a 54mm version of one of our sculpts.
From what I've read the Form 3 has improved on the detail that the Form 2 could do, and I like the idea of their cartridge system and apparently their gray resin doesn't need to be UV cured in the end.
I actually got to visit the FormLabs Offices for work this summer. The Form3 looks super neat.
There's a couple of neat innovations they put into the design, mostly that they rejiggered the laser system to be modular/replaceable, and also redesigned so that the laser is always reflected perpendicularly with the printbed surface (i.e., the cross section of the laser won't be affected by the angle of incidence and won't end up with an oval rather than circle), and apparently they replaced the glass with a more flexible material to reduce stress on whatever you're printing.
All in all I will say that the engineering for the FormLabs printers is impressive and definitely encourages me to invest in their printers, even if it's at a much higher entry point than other companies.
Re: Gray Resin - didn't realize it doesn't need to be UV cured. I have the sample I got from my visit on my desk right now and I will say that it's pretty similar in feel ( IMO) to GW plastics (though obviously a little bit more brittle). You should be able to request a sample print if you haven't already.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/02 14:07:52
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Jin wrote: Necros wrote:i'm currently looking at the new Form 3. It's SLA and quite a bit more expensive than a Photon. I need something that is all enclosed and can be kept in the garage in the winter and summer. It can get down to around 30 degrees F in our garage in the winter. So I need something with a heated bed and all that stuff. Planning to use it for master minis that I can send to our painters or play testers, or small production runs for minis that I don't think will sell a lot of.. or special things like if someone wanted a 54mm version of one of our sculpts.
From what I've read the Form 3 has improved on the detail that the Form 2 could do, and I like the idea of their cartridge system and apparently their gray resin doesn't need to be UV cured in the end.
I actually got to visit the FormLabs Offices for work this summer. The Form3 looks super neat.
Yeah they look like they could do the trick.
Unfortunately, at 5k a pop, and resin so expensive, I'm fairly sure the vast majority of people - even professionals - are better off prototyping with a 500 bucks resin printer and doing final prints from online services.
What do you think?
What does Necros, who appears to have a business case for it, thinks?
PS: At around 5k, just like a good ultimaker - that means the only thing I need is a Voron-like DIY SLA printer. Anyone knows of something that beats a Form hands-down and is about 1 to 2k in parts?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 14:13:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/02 15:03:29
Subject: Re:3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Formlabs is currently leading the consumer grade high end resin printer market, but at the end of the day, it's all about the ends you're trying to achieve.
A true professional grade is indeed better off being sent to a shop with industrial grade machines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/02 15:16:45
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Barpharanges
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@Kanpeki - I think it ultimately comes down to what level of professional polish you want/need and the volume of printing you want/need as noted above. I would totally agree that for the greater majority of folk, the Form3 is probably not worth it since I'm pretty sure most folk will get perfectly serviceable models with a cheaper printer. For folk who don't need much 'professional' level stuff printed in large quantities, I certainly wouldn't bother recommending the Form3 printer. I'm pretty sure, having talked with some of the FormLabs engineers, that they wouldn't recommend it either since they are quite aware that they're not really focused on targeting the hobbyist market.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/03 05:22:45
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I totally agree that a 3d printer for someone who is not technically inclined and willing to put in the time will likely lead to frustration and abandonment. However, I'm part of loads of miniature printing facebook groups and discords and tons of people really do just get a resin printer, join a patreon that supplies ready to print files and go to town making figures for their D&D games.
I also don't think the typical gamer is a figure painter first and foremost. Most people I've come across will not bother with gap filling and sanding and certainly aren't going to resculpt things to make them perfect.
Reaper is on their fifth multi million dollar kickstarter for cheap miniatures as I type this. So obviously there is loads of interest in painting cheap and cheerful miniatures for gaming.
Igenstiltch - is this good enough for you? Only you can decide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUxuxPMabeE
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 05:28:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/03 10:33:54
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I think you're totally right, most people don't even remove mold lines so the 3d print is not going to be much worse.
I think you're going to make me buy that printer though... the images in the video lack a lot of detail but the only way to find out is to buy and try I guess.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/03 14:23:50
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Oberleutnant
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Speaking as a hobbyist. I've got one Ender 3 up in the basement and its been running at least a few hours everyday since Dec of last year. I've done a few 28mm minis on it and I will agree, its not the machine for that. I've done a few Epic minis on it, and if I was looking at building an Epic army, I think I could put a force on the table I would have no problems with being proud of.
However, the bulk of what I use my machine for is 15mm WWII and Cold War era vehicles. I think the primary difference between a meh 28mm mini and a completely acceptable 15mm vehicle is the fact that the 28mm minis just have too many curves and organic lines.
As a hobbyist, I think I started seeing my best results once I trained my brain to stop thinking that your model has to follow the same physics as the real thing....printing of a 45 or even vertical vs horizontal is completely acceptable, even if it means a few more minutes of build and a few more meters of PLA in supports.
And don't get me started on the amount of terrain I have now been able to build and still in the que to build. Terrain alone may be the primary driver behind printer #2 come Black Friday.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/03 15:54:58
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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Courageous Questing Knight
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I have just gotten started with my Elegoo Mars resin printer (bought a 3' USB cable extension for $2, so don't have to reach around the back of the machine all the time) and have finished with a number of batches of 30mm minis and some little larger ogres and all. So easy to set up and use.
With a setting of .05 and using the anti-aliasing set at 2, I am getting phenomenal prints. I have just gotten some small figures off at .03 and I cannot see any ridge lines at all.
I am sure if you are looking to print a few pieces, then it is not for you. Those with the desire to print lots of pieces, the available printers that are affordable with great results are out there!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/03 16:02:32
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Jin, I can't believe you got to visit the FormLabs headquarters - that is so awesome!!
I've used the older FormLabs machines (Form 1, Form 1.5 and Form 2) although not the new (awesome!) Form 3. Like Jin said, I think they're targeting business more than hobbyists (at least, hobbyists who aren't selling anything as a part of their hobby). I mostly used mine in developing the original ModCube, so there was some return on what I was primarily using it for.
~~~~~~~~
Edit: Wow, MDSW, that Elegoo Mars looks pretty fantastic! I had not even heard of LCD (as opposed to DLP) until seeing this thread. Here's a nice article comparing them:
https://all3dp.com/2/lcd-vs-dlp-3d-printing-technologies-compared/
Amazon link to the Elegoo Mars (not in stock, just for reference and some sweet pics from users):
https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Photocuring-Printer-Off-line-Printing/dp/B07K3SH9Y7
For the price point, that's definitely something you could take a risk on more easily (it's a factor of 10 cheaper!).
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 16:31:02
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