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So after playing against mono Space Marines with my mono Death Guard I have realized it is almost an impossible matchup. The overwhelming firepower and in some cases survivability of the new Space Marine lists tears through DG like they were IG. Mono Death Guard is an army that is almost never played in a competitive scenario. DG also really struggles do to limited unit selection compared to other armies and bonus rules for mono DG armies must consider this. So I started thinking of unique ways of how they could improved and I wanted to share some my ideas for pure DG lists.

1) Chapter Trait improvements: All DG units always count as remaining stationary during the shooting phase and wounds are considered double when calculating if a model has a degraded profile

2) Enhanced Chapter Trait list improvement (if entire army is only DG): All DG units ignore -1 and -2 AP on weapons and all weapons become infected and are treated as “plague weapons”.

3) Nurgle Gifts “phases” (infestation, contagion, Pandemic):

a. Infestation Phase: All units arrive on the battlefield covered in flies and small insects. DG units always count as being in cover. If a Death Guard unit is already in cover add +2 to their save instead of the normal +1.
b. Contagion Phase: The plague of Nurgle begins to spread causing the weapons of the Death Guard to become infected with a toxic bile. All Plague weapons reroll wound rolls of +1 and +2 instead of normal.
c. Pandemic Phase: Death Guard units swarm with diseases and plagues. At the beginning of EACH player’s fight phase roll a D6 for each enemy unit with DG unit within 1” of them. On a 3+ enemy units take a mortal wound. Note, units can suffer multiple mortal wounds this way if they have more than one Nurgle unit around them. Additionally, unmodified wound rolls of 5+ on melee plague weapons cause an additional wound to enemy units.

4) Unit changes:

a. Plague Surgeons now give a +1 to disgusting resilient rolls to infantry units within 3”
b. Remove Sorcerers and create a new unit. This offers nothing that a plaguecaster doesn’t do
c. Nurglings gain the Death Guard keyword (“Little Lords” are EVERYWHERE in the lore as part of the chapter)
d. Give Chaos Lords T5 and DR. Why is he weaker than a normal Plague marine?
e. Change the Lord of Contagion’s aura to instead give a +1 to wound rolls on all melee plague weapons within 7” of him
f. Tallyman now gives back +1 Command Point if you roll MORE than 7 on two dice. This can only occur once per game turn. Make a HQ choice
g. Once per game a single unit of Death Shroud terminators can teleport within 3” of your DG warlord even if they are within 9” of an enemy unit, it must remain more than 1” away from enemy models.
h. UNITs (vs Model) count as being in cover if within 7” of a MBH. Also, MBHs gain +1 to their hit rolls if they began the game with at least 3 models in the unit. (vs if they have 3 on the table at all times)
I. Add some new units that were added in Chaos Codex especially chaplains.
j. Make arch-contaminator only allow rerolls of 1 and 2 for all plague weapons and wound rolls of 6+ cause an additional wound within 7”
k. Make auras either 3” or 7”. Not 6” like the currently on Chaos lords
l. Make biologus putrifier a HQs option (elite slot is way to crowded)
m. Make Plague Marines -1 point cheaper and allow sergeants to take blight Launchers.


These are just a few ideas what do you think?

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2019/11/17 21:04:28


 
   
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In My Lab

1) The second bit is fine, the first is not. That actually makes them ridiculously mobile, since they can Move, Advance, Shoot (with any weapons) and still Charge.

2) RR1s of DR makes the Surgeon sad, but he sucks anyway. Making all weapons Plague Weapons is insane-not on its own, but combined with Arch Contaminator, since that allows full rerolls of wounds.

3) There's never a reason to move out of the first phase. -1 to-hit is that good, and the rest is meh.

4) a) Plague Surgeons might be too good with that chance, but with appropriate points, seems okay.
b) Agreed on Sorcs-but they already have a new unit.
c) No. They're daemons, they should stay that way. You got Poxwalkers for in-faction chaff.
d) Again, already done, if you...
e) Do that.
f) That's a slightly over 40% chance of getting a CP back. Now, with Tactical Restraint, that's not a big deal, but without that, it's insane.
g) Seems cool, flavorful, and fine.
h) Might be a little too good, and why should Blighthaulers get to keep their unit bonus when dropped too low? No one else does. Maybe up max size to six?
i) Which ones?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
1) The second bit is fine, the first is not. That actually makes them ridiculously mobile, since they can Move, Advance, Shoot (with any weapons) and still Charge.

2) RR1s of DR makes the Surgeon sad, but he sucks anyway. Making all weapons Plague Weapons is insane-not on its own, but combined with Arch Contaminator, since that allows full rerolls of wounds.

3) There's never a reason to move out of the first phase. -1 to-hit is that good, and the rest is meh.

4) a) Plague Surgeons might be too good with that chance, but with appropriate points, seems okay.
b) Agreed on Sorcs-but they already have a new unit.
c) No. They're daemons, they should stay that way. You got Poxwalkers for in-faction chaff.
d) Again, already done, if you...
e) Do that.
f) That's a slightly over 40% chance of getting a CP back. Now, with Tactical Restraint, that's not a big deal, but without that, it's insane.
g) Seems cool, flavorful, and fine.
h) Might be a little too good, and why should Blighthaulers get to keep their unit bonus when dropped too low? No one else does. Maybe up max size to six?
i) Which ones?


I incorporated some of your feedback in my original post and tweaked things.
   
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In My Lab

You shouldn't be able to fire Heavy Weapons after Advancing. I'm fine with them ignoring the move and shoot penalties, or Advance and Assault Weapon shoot penalties, but there should be a cost involved with Advancing.

Again, Arch Contaminator basically makes Plague Weapons have the old G-Man aura. That's a problem.

For the Gifts, the point was -1 to-hit was TOO GOOD-not that everything else needed to be buffed.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
You shouldn't be able to fire Heavy Weapons after Advancing. I'm fine with them ignoring the move and shoot penalties, or Advance and Assault Weapon shoot penalties, but there should be a cost involved with Advancing.

Again, Arch Contaminator basically makes Plague Weapons have the old G-Man aura. That's a problem.

For the Gifts, the point was -1 to-hit was TOO GOOD-not that everything else needed to be buffed.


The main thing I want is them to have the similar ability to ultramarines who have an ability which is now much better than DG.


No way is making all weapons plague weapons and arch contaminator like G-Man. Multiple SM chapters can give characters reroll all failed hit and wound rolls of 1. This is simply the reverse. No way it is too strong. Again, playing all DG has significant disadvantages so this would help offset that some.

The -1 to hit is only slightly better than the Raven Guard chapter trait. If you stay in the -1 to hit phase you miss out on a significant boost in damage. I think rerolling all 1s and 2 wound rolls is very powerful army wide. Another interesting way to make the 1st phase DG unique is that enemy models have a -1 on all their wound rolls in the shooting and combat phase instead of the -1 to hit. This would showcase their toughness.

Overall, all these changes help really only the mono DG faction list. These changes would likely still put them behind the power output

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 22:56:56


 
   
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So, you say rerolling 1s and 2s is really powerful... Yet rerolling ALL wounds isn't a big deal?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
So, you say rerolling 1s and 2s is really powerful... Yet rerolling ALL wounds isn't a big deal?


Well rerolling all wounds is only when around your warlord. Rerolling 1s and 2s is army wide. Yes both are good, but again rerolling all failed wounds is no powerful than rerolling all failed hit rolls that every chapter master has.
   
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In My Lab

broxus wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So, you say rerolling 1s and 2s is really powerful... Yet rerolling ALL wounds isn't a big deal?


Well rerolling all wounds is only when around your warlord. Rerolling 1s and 2s is army wide. Yes both are good, but again rerolling all failed wounds is no powerful than rerolling all failed hit rolls that every chapter master has.
No. That's factually incorrect.

Reroll all is more powerful the worse your initial target is.

Target Number........Odds of Success.....................Improvement Total
6+.......................................31%.......................................186%
5+.......................................56%.......................................168%
4+.......................................75%.......................................150%
3+.......................................89%.......................................133%
2+.......................................97%.......................................116%

So, rerolling all hits when you hit on a 3+ is a 33% improvement. But how often are you wounding on 3s? More often, it's 4s for troops, 5s or 6s for vehicles. Which, as you can see, is a hell of a lot better.

Edit: Also, army-wide -1 to-hit in all phases (that matter) is WAY TOO GOOD. Still.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 23:48:43


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 JNAProductions wrote:
broxus wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So, you say rerolling 1s and 2s is really powerful... Yet rerolling ALL wounds isn't a big deal?


Well rerolling all wounds is only when around your warlord. Rerolling 1s and 2s is army wide. Yes both are good, but again rerolling all failed wounds is no powerful than rerolling all failed hit rolls that every chapter master has.
No. That's factually incorrect.

Reroll all is more powerful the worse your initial target is.

Target Number........Odds of Success.....................Improvement Total
6+.......................................31%.......................................186%
5+.......................................56%.......................................168%
4+.......................................75%.......................................150%
3+.......................................89%.......................................133%
2+.......................................97%.......................................116%

So, rerolling all hits when you hit on a 3+ is a 33% improvement. But how often are you wounding on 3s? More often, it's 4s for troops, 5s or 6s for vehicles. Which, as you can see, is a hell of a lot better.

Edit: Also, army-wide -1 to-hit in all phases (that matter) is WAY TOO GOOD. Still.


It depends on what you are shooting at which is better. Death guard should be the hardest to kill marines in the game. Right now they are a joke when compared to SMs. The -1 to hit to hit or alternative -1 to wound seems to make sense to me. You are forgetting this would only work with DG pure armies which lacks speed, firepower, and most of the good diverse options CSM/SMs have.
   
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broxus wrote:
So after playing against mono Space Marines with my mono Death Guard I have realized it is almost an impossible matchup. The overwhelming firepower and in some cases survivability of the new Space Marine lists tears through DG like they were IG. Mono Death Guard is an army that is almost never played in a competitive scenario. So I started thinking of unique ways of how they could improved and I wanted to share some my ideas for pure DG lists.

1) Chapter Trait improvements: All DG units never count as moving during the shooting phase and wounds are considered double when calculating if a model has a degraded profile

2) Mono Chapter Trait list improvement: All DG units can reroll Disgustingly Resilient rolls of 1 and all DG weapons become infected and are treated as “plague weapons”.

3) Nurgle Gifts “phases” (infestation, contagion, Pandemic):

a. Infestation Phase: All units arrive on the battlefield covered in flies and small insects. Subtract -1 against all attacks against Nurgle units in the shooting and fight phase. (Additionally, maybe multiple wound models regain +1 wound per turn)
b. Contagion Phase: The plague of Nurgle begins to spread causing the weapons of the Death Guard to become infected with a toxic bile. Plague weapons reroll wound rolls of +1 and +2 instead of normal. Unmodified wound rolls of 6 on plague weapons count as 2 wounds.
c. Pandemic Phase: Nurgle units swarm with diseases and plagues. At the beginning of EACH player’s fight phase roll a D6 for each enemy unit with Nurgle unit within 1” of them. On a 3+ enemy units take a mortal wound and loses -1 strength in the fight phase. Note, units can suffer multiple mortal wounds this way if they have more than one Nurgle unit around them.

4) Unit changes:

a. Plague Surgeons now give a +1 to disgusting resilient rolls to infantry units within 3”
b. Remove Sorcerers and create a new unit
c. Nurglings gain the Death Guard keyword (The are EVERYWHERE in the lore as part of the chapter)
d. Remove Chaos Lords and creat a new unit
e. Make Lords of Contagion allow reroll hit rolls of +1 for all DG units within 7” of him
f. Tallyman now gives back +1 Command Point if you roll MORE than 7 on two dice. This can only occur once per game turn.
g. Once per game a single unit of Death Shroud terminators can teleport within 3” of your army’s commander even if they are within 9” of an enemy unit.
h. UNITs (vs Model) count as being in cover if within 7” of a MBH. Also, MBHs gain +1 to their hit rolls if they began the game with at least 3 models in the unit. (vs if they have 3 on the table at all times)
i. Add new units that were added in Chaos Codex


These are just a few ideas what do you think?

0) Mono DG have a 45% win rate in ITC tournaments compared to mono-DA with 31%, DG have a very neat faction percentage, they are after all just one Astartes sub-faction out of many. I do agree that depending on how much the most insane SM get reined in most factions will need somewhere between a little and a lot of help, I think you went overboard everywhere though.
1) Constantly advancing isn't what I'd say is the most fluffy thing for Death Guard, but some kind of army-wide buff is probably needed. The double wounds thing alone might make DG soup passable at least since the units that would benefit are already quite good, then the other rules can help make mono-DG better.
2) Way too good, Death Guard were pretty good if you ignore the SM release. Re-rolling FNP rolls of 1 is also a massive chore to sit through. Keep in mind also that you are not locked into one Doctrine like SM are, some chapters have to wait one or even two turns before their version of this upgrade comes online. Giving all Melee weapon profiles the Plague Weapon ability would be suitably weak for an always-on mono-faction army bonus, it'd encourage the use of Spawn and Possessed without making Plague Marines insane with Arch-Contaminator. It'd buff Daemon Princes which are quite insane already, to keep them in check I'd limit the Suppurating Plate relic to INFANTRY.
3) All of these are too strong, but weakening 2) does open up some power so the entire power budget isn't used on bolters that can re-roll all failed wound rolls with Arch-Contaminator.
a) should probably just grant the benefit of cover to all Death Guard units, staying in this stage all game makes you unkillable combined with the re-roll 1s for FNP.
b) Re-roll wound rolls of 1 for all weapons and add 1 to the AP characteristic of weapons with the Plague Weapons ability. So no bolter synergy with Arch-Contaminator, but you still get the re-roll 1s.
c) Seems fine, it is definitely much worse than a). I'd take a thinker about whether I'd want to change this to 4+ if you do decide to nerf a), otherwise you might just have to buff it so it can keep up, although I don't think anyone would want to play against your rules at their current level of power.

4) I dislike unit changes...
a) Wow, Plague Surgeons are a joke, it makes sense why nobody has ever brought them against me. I like the change, I'm not sure what pts level he should be at, but with his official rules he's worth very few pts.
b) Dislike removing units.
c) It's not too terrible an idea, but at the same time it's not really a DG unit.
d) Dislike removing units.
e) I don't think you'll have many HQ units left after your change, it'd be a total Daemon Prince fiesta, I'd rather see a proper pts cost for this guy, not every aura needs to win the game for you.
f) I don't think they need buffs, they already do a couple of things well, I'm not sure where their pts cost belongs.
g) Way too powerful, make it cost 3CP if you want this ability.
h) Aura abilities that encourage conga-lines like this makes the game less cinematic and it makes no sense. For some units with a tiny 3" aura and nothing else to contribute like Venomthropes, it might make sense to allow it, but not for Blight Haulers.
i) Which units exactly? I don't think DG need Masters of Execution or Lord Discordants on Helstalkers, but Greater Possessed makes sense.
   
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I’m curious what your ideas are then to help make them viable especially in the new SM meta. Most of my recommendations put them on par with SMs or a little behind. If you play mono Death Guard you have very few unit choices and lots of weaknesses. Almost none of these benefits would help chaos soup lists which the only competitive option now (and still lags WAY behind the SM meta now)
   
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broxus wrote:
I’m curious what your ideas are then to help make them viable especially in the new SM meta. Most of my recommendations put them on par with SMs or a little behind. If you play mono Death Guard you have very few unit choices and lots of weaknesses. Almost none of these benefits would help chaos soup lists which the only competitive option now (and still lags WAY behind the SM meta now)

I disagree Death Guard started way ahead of SM, now SM caught up and a little more than that with Death Guard soup. You only need to catch up to them, not regain the lead, and you probably shouldn't measure your army faction against the most recent broken hotness if you want to play against people that play anything but that. If you disagree about the premise of DG being stronger initially than SM I'd have to go research the stats, but that's been my experience playing against the two factions and from seeing how they did at tournaments, with SM having only Guilliman to hold up the otherwise dead faction, seeing as how bad Dark Angels are doing.
   
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I think DG did start out ahead. They don’t need to take the lead in terms of power. I think obviously you have not played the new SMs lists. Their damage output makes the DG resilience non existent. Play a few games then come and let’s talk. Even prior to the new SMa pure DG haven’t won a major tournament or been in the top cut that I can remember for a very very long time.

I am fine that pure SM lists got more powerful. I think soup was destroying the game. My point is how do we make mono DG viable also. Please share your ideas. Right now all you have added is everything is overpowered.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/13 17:05:50


 
   
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broxus wrote:
I think DG did start out ahead. They don’t need to take the lead in terms of power. I think obviously you have not played the new SMs lists. Their damage output makes the DG resilience non existent. Play a few games then come and let’s talk. Even prior to the new SMa pure DG haven’t won a major tournament or been in the top cut that I can remember for a very very long time.

I am fine that pure SM lists got more powerful. I think soup was destroying the game. My point is how do we make mono DG viable also. Please share your ideas. Right now all you have added is everything is overpowered.

I honestly don't really want to play against the new SM, too scary, and I got beat hard the one game I played against a semi-competitive Raven list.

I did say everything I think needed to be added, vehicles and Mortarion count as having twice as many wounds remaining for the purpose of determining which bracket they are in, that's for DG regardless of whether it's soup or not. If you are playing mono-DG then I think all your melee weapons should become plague weapons and all your units should get cover (and the option to switch to the other stages), that's all I think DG need in terms of rules. It might not seem like a lot with your original demands, but the CP you're saving just on not having to use the Prepared Positions Stratagem is an average of 1/game and you're getting that all game, not just the first turn. Then you can clean up any remaining power imbalance with pts. White Scars don't really get a lot more value from the new rules than what I suggested and they were absolutely trash prior to their supplement being released.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/13 18:32:22


 
   
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I like the idea of Nurglings being available to DG, but they should perhaps be a Fast Attack choice to avoid 'cheap Battalion cheese', and make them compete with FBDs and MBHs for slots.

I think its a shame that MBHs don't get much use outside of friendly games. I would like to see their Tri-Lobe ability ability buffed to give a +2 to hit rolls when in a unit of three, and a +1 for a unit of two.

I think it's Plague Marines that need the most urgent attention.They are the most iconic DG unit, but are currently in an odd place where they aren't cheap enough to challenge Pox Walkers, or tough enough to replace Blightlord termies, in competitive lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/13 19:07:44


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 harlokin wrote:


I think it's Plague Marines that need the most urgent attention.They are the most iconic DG unit, but are currently in an odd place where they aren't cheap enough to challenge Pox Walkers, or tough enough to replace Blightlord termies, in competitive lists.


Mostly still true, however they did get a decent bump in viability with Hateful Assault - combat blobs of Bubotic Axes/Flails with Veterans and near Arch Contaminator is very scary indeed. If they had an extra wound or slight decrease in points they would be perfect.


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To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot. And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of war.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


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Well with salamanders and imperial fists coming out now it really is depressing to play mono Death Guard. I am hoping they get a significant bump soon.
   
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 NurglesR0T wrote:
 harlokin wrote:


I think it's Plague Marines that need the most urgent attention.They are the most iconic DG unit, but are currently in an odd place where they aren't cheap enough to challenge Pox Walkers, or tough enough to replace Blightlord termies, in competitive lists.


Mostly still true, however they did get a decent bump in viability with Hateful Assault - combat blobs of Bubotic Axes/Flails with Veterans and near Arch Contaminator is very scary indeed. If they had an extra wound or slight decrease in points they would be perfect.


No, they need an extra attack standard. They've ALWAYS had an equivalent of having at least A2 base, and removing that makes them suck at CQC, where they shouldn't be as bad as Rubric Marines basically for the price.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.

I don't think the OP is asking for Marine Supplement status. However, it can't be denied that Loyalist Scum have a lot more going on for them, and CSM have lost a LOT with the bit they gained as well.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.

I don't think the OP is asking for Marine Supplement status. However, it can't be denied that Loyalist Scum have a lot more going on for them, and CSM have lost a LOT with the bit they gained as well.
It'd be best to tone down the game as a whole.

Offense currently outstrips defense by a lot, in most cases, meaning games are often decided solely by who gets turn one.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.

I don't think the OP is asking for Marine Supplement status. However, it can't be denied that Loyalist Scum have a lot more going on for them, and CSM have lost a LOT with the bit they gained as well.
It'd be best to tone down the game as a whole.

Offense currently outstrips defense by a lot, in most cases, meaning games are often decided solely by who gets turn one.

It's decided T1-T2 because of IGOUGO

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.

I don't think the OP is asking for Marine Supplement status. However, it can't be denied that Loyalist Scum have a lot more going on for them, and CSM have lost a LOT with the bit they gained as well.
It'd be best to tone down the game as a whole.

Offense currently outstrips defense by a lot, in most cases, meaning games are often decided solely by who gets turn one.

It's decided T1-T2 because of IGOUGO


Are games of Warmachine decided T1-T2?

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.

I don't think the OP is asking for Marine Supplement status. However, it can't be denied that Loyalist Scum have a lot more going on for them, and CSM have lost a LOT with the bit they gained as well.
It'd be best to tone down the game as a whole.

Offense currently outstrips defense by a lot, in most cases, meaning games are often decided solely by who gets turn one.

It's decided T1-T2 because of IGOUGO


Are games of Warmachine decided T1-T2?

Does Warmachine feature most of its combat as 90% shooting with the same external balance as 40k currently exhibits?

And if Warmachine is IGOUGO it absolutely isn't as balanced as it could be.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Does Warmachine feature most of its combat as 90% shooting with the same external balance as 40k currently exhibits? ...


So it's possible screaming "remove IGOUGO or nothing will ever be fixed!" isn't the only possible solution here?

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Games of 40k have been decided Turn 1-2 for many editions but allowed the losing player to limp on for a few extra turns with the hope that if the odds turn they might win.

Now the game is just accelerated and more decisive faster.


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning. There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot. And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of war.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Does Warmachine feature most of its combat as 90% shooting with the same external balance as 40k currently exhibits? ...


So it's possible screaming "remove IGOUGO or nothing will ever be fixed!" isn't the only possible solution here?

In a primarily shooting game, IGOUGO can never be balanced. Apocalypse isn't perfect, but based on reviews it's a lot better balanced, and part of that reason IS the loss of IGOUGO. It's just an outdated system.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.


Nope but the issue has always been that mono faction lists in 8th edition have been very gimped. I’m glad that the new codex SM lists are getting love, but they likely went to far. My recommendations are no where near as powerful as the current changes. DG have massive disadvantages since they lack options and are overall a very slow army. They likely will need some significant love to play mono faction in the new meta.
   
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broxus wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do we have to respond to OP releases by saying "It's not fair, my army should be OP too!"? The whole "buff everything to beat the power list of the week" approach to design is why GW ends up with ludicrous power creep.


Nope but the issue has always been that mono faction lists in 8th edition have been very gimped. I’m glad that the new codex SM lists are getting love, but they likely went to far. My recommendations are no where near as powerful as the current changes. DG have massive disadvantages since they lack options and are overall a very slow army. They likely will need some significant love to play mono faction in the new meta.


The solution to that problem is more along the lines of "all army-specific stratagems, relics, etc. may only be used in a mono-faction army/if your Warlord is that faction", not "let's write half a dozen more special rules to add to the mono-faction army". You're not GW, you can take things away, not just add bloat.

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Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Does Warmachine feature most of its combat as 90% shooting with the same external balance as 40k currently exhibits? ...


So it's possible screaming "remove IGOUGO or nothing will ever be fixed!" isn't the only possible solution here?

In a primarily shooting game, IGOUGO can never be balanced. Apocalypse isn't perfect, but based on reviews it's a lot better balanced, and part of that reason IS the loss of IGOUGO. It's just an outdated system.


I wonder how much the game would be slowed down if alternating actions were during each phase. Either in the shooting phase etc, you shoot one unit, i shoot one unit etc until all resolved and onto the next phase - or if it would be better served as you have your entire phase, then i have mine before we move to the next phase.

I'm not familiar with other game systems that might have something similar so interested to see how they work it out.


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning. There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot. And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of war.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


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