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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 10:48:00
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If I have a model with the harlies relic "Suit of hidden knives"
My opponent is slow rolling.
They declare 50 melee attacks on my character with the relic.
after 25 attacks my character dies.
Is there actually anything in the rules that says they discard the remaining attacks or is there another 25 more rolls my opponent must make potentially securing more mortal wounds ?
I can't seem to find anything in the BRB that says you stop attacking at that point.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 10:52:28
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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All attacks happen simultaneously. Melee or shooting.
If I fire a volley of plasma at some death guard and slow roll.
after 7 men shooting unit is wiped failing all FNP. the final three men still shoot but continue to shoot at the unit that's no longer there. the opponent continues to roll FNP's for a unit that also no longer exists as they have failed the FNP's previously.
This is why we fast roll, saves time and keeps things simple as long as you clearly state what is going into what.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 10:53:48
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SeanDavid1991 wrote:All attacks happen simultaneously. Melee or shooting.
If I fire a volley of plasma at some death guard and slow roll.
after 7 men shooting unit is wiped failing all FNP. the final three men still shoot but continue to shoot at the unit that's no longer there. the opponent continues to roll FNP's for a unit that also no longer exists as they have failed the FNP's previously.
This is why we fast roll, saves time and keeps things simple as long as you clearly state what is going into what.
Except attacks arn't simultaneous, they are resolved one at a time.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 10:55:47
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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Type40 wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:All attacks happen simultaneously. Melee or shooting.
If I fire a volley of plasma at some death guard and slow roll.
after 7 men shooting unit is wiped failing all FNP. the final three men still shoot but continue to shoot at the unit that's no longer there. the opponent continues to roll FNP's for a unit that also no longer exists as they have failed the FNP's previously.
This is why we fast roll, saves time and keeps things simple as long as you clearly state what is going into what.
Except attacks arn't simultaneous, they are resolved one at a time.
Resolution is one at a time but they happen at the same time. A unit fires all together, the resolution is independent. Hense why you still technically continue to rill for a unit that's no longer there....hense fast rolling.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 11:05:27
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Type40 wrote:If I have a model with the harlies relic "Suit of hidden knives" My opponent is slow rolling. They declare 50 melee attacks on my character with the relic. after 25 attacks my character dies. Is there actually anything in the rules that says they discard the remaining attacks or is there another 25 more rolls my opponent must make potentially securing more mortal wounds ? I can't seem to find anything in the BRB that says you stop attacking at that point. Here is what you are looking for, Page 7 in the 40K battle Primer If you are resolving attacks one at a time, and you get to step 2, you need to make a wound roll. This can not be done if the model you are attacking is dead as you no longer have a Toughness characteristic to compare to, as there is no living model. So by default the 25 remaining attacks can not be rolled for as you can not ever roll to wound against something that is dead. P.S. you can not do step 3 either which is "Allocate Wound" as the the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit, which can not happen if the unit is not alive. .
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 11:09:36
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 11:10:43
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SeanDavid1991 wrote: Type40 wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:All attacks happen simultaneously. Melee or shooting.
If I fire a volley of plasma at some death guard and slow roll.
after 7 men shooting unit is wiped failing all FNP. the final three men still shoot but continue to shoot at the unit that's no longer there. the opponent continues to roll FNP's for a unit that also no longer exists as they have failed the FNP's previously.
This is why we fast roll, saves time and keeps things simple as long as you clearly state what is going into what.
Except attacks arn't simultaneous, they are resolved one at a time.
Resolution is one at a time but they happen at the same time. A unit fires all together, the resolution is independent. Hense why you still technically continue to rill for a unit that's no longer there....hense fast rolling.
As concluded in other discussions on this forum. If you are not fast rolling and the attack sequence is interrupted by something like "somber sentinals" and that causes the model who is attacking to be destroyed, the rest of the attacks are discarded.
Nothing in the rules say attacks are simultaneous. Fast rolling is an option to speed up game play, saves and dmg allocation is resolved one at a time, you must make saves for all attacks that have already hit and wounded. There are several parts of the BRB that disagree with the idea that attacks are simultaneous, this notion is wrong. To directly quote the rule book "the following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time" . not to mention other rules interactions like removing models that are out of cover so the rest of your saves do benefit from cover. Again, attacks are not simultaneous in that situation.
I am just asking if someone can provide a direct rules quote that says remaining attacks are discarded once a model is removed or does that rule not exist ?
Attacks are not simultaneous. They can be somewhat simultaneous with fast rolling. If they were simultaneous an incredible amount of rules interactions would not work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote: Type40 wrote:If I have a model with the harlies relic "Suit of hidden knives"
My opponent is slow rolling.
They declare 50 melee attacks on my character with the relic.
after 25 attacks my character dies.
Is there actually anything in the rules that says they discard the remaining attacks or is there another 25 more rolls my opponent must make potentially securing more mortal wounds ?
I can't seem to find anything in the BRB that says you stop attacking at that point.
Here is what you are looking for, Page 7 in the 40K battle Primer
If you are resolving attacks one at a time, and you get to step 2, you need to make a wound roll.
This can not be done if the model you are attacking is dead as you no longer have a Toughness characteristic to compare to, as there is no living model.
So by default the 25 remaining attacks can not be rolled for as you can not ever roll to wound against something that is dead.
P.S. you can not do step 3 either which is "Allocate Wound" as the the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit, which can not happen if the unit is not alive.
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Great !
Thanks for clearing that up for me  !
The question is though,,, must they still do step 1 if that could potentially trigger an ability? Automatically Appended Next Post: now that I think about it,,,, the suit of hidden knives isn't on the battlefield anymore... so it doesn't even mater, no more mortal wounds can be triggered XD lol.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 12:09:53
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 21:28:01
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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No, they dont. It would be impossible to shoot a unit inside of a transport, after the transport has been destroyed, and the embarked unit has to disembark, if everything happens simultaneously. In fact nothing happens simultaneously. If two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is decides in what order the rules are resolved. Sequencing literally means something happens first, and something else happens after that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 21:28:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 21:39:54
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Type40 wrote:If I have a model with the harlies relic "Suit of hidden knives"
My opponent is slow rolling.
They declare 50 melee attacks on my character with the relic.
after 25 attacks my character dies.
Is there actually anything in the rules that says they discard the remaining attacks or is there another 25 more rolls my opponent must make potentially securing more mortal wounds ?
I can't seem to find anything in the BRB that says you stop attacking at that point.
How could this make a difference? Did he have an objective to score mortal wounds or something?
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"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 21:49:53
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kap'n Krump wrote: Type40 wrote:If I have a model with the harlies relic "Suit of hidden knives"
My opponent is slow rolling.
They declare 50 melee attacks on my character with the relic.
after 25 attacks my character dies.
Is there actually anything in the rules that says they discard the remaining attacks or is there another 25 more rolls my opponent must make potentially securing more mortal wounds ?
I can't seem to find anything in the BRB that says you stop attacking at that point.
How could this make a difference? Did he have an objective to score mortal wounds or something?
If my solitaire, who is equipped with hidden knives, is dealing mortals wounds every time one of your 50 hit rolls a 1. If the solitaire dies in the middle of those attacks (lets say after 25 attacks) , your unit is saved a potential 25 more chances to roll a 1. This means the unit attacking will likely suffer less mortal wounds.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 21:51:00
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 21:52:55
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
california
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p5freak wrote:
No, they dont. It would be impossible to shoot a unit inside of a transport, after the transport has been destroyed, and the embarked unit has to disembark, if everything happens simultaneously. In fact nothing happens simultaneously. If two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is decides in what order the rules are resolved. Sequencing literally means something happens first, and something else happens after that.
Yes, they do. Citation hilighted in different colors with explanations underneath and order of sequence needed, or you’re wrong. Like always
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 23:01:12
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Nothing in the rules actually states all shots/attacks happen simultaneously. That’s an inference but not actually stated. So no citation can be provided either way, but as it’s not written they aren’t. The fast rolling rules merely allow you to speed up rolls - as writte they should be resolved one by one, but this optional rule allows faster play. It doesn’t mean you can compel someone to roll attacks into thin air to try and harm them. No way.
If you’re firing 5 overcharged plasma guns one by one and the first two guys kill their target you don’t roll the others. You’re not compelled to. Nothing in the rules says you need to. The shots are just wasted but there’s no chance of the dudes dying.
Similarly if a character has a “oh you hit yourself” rule like in the OP and they get killed halfway through being attacked, they in no way get to force their opponent to make any unused attacks to see if they cause wounds back. I mean, for a start the model is dead, and again nothing says the attacks are simultaneous. If anything the reverse... the rules assume attacks are made one by one and fast rolling is but an option.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 00:11:34
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote:Nothing in the rules actually states all shots/attacks happen simultaneously. That’s an inference but not actually stated. So no citation can be provided either way, but as it’s not written they aren’t. The fast rolling rules merely allow you to speed up rolls - as writte they should be resolved one by one, but this optional rule allows faster play. It doesn’t mean you can compel someone to roll attacks into thin air to try and harm them. No way.
If you’re firing 5 overcharged plasma guns one by one and the first two guys kill their target you don’t roll the others. You’re not compelled to. Nothing in the rules says you need to. The shots are just wasted but there’s no chance of the dudes dying.
Similarly if a character has a “oh you hit yourself” rule like in the OP and they get killed halfway through being attacked, they in no way get to force their opponent to make any unused attacks to see if they cause wounds back. I mean, for a start the model is dead, and again nothing says the attacks are simultaneous. If anything the reverse... the rules assume attacks are made one by one and fast rolling is but an option.
Good explanation,
Yes, I agree, and even if GW did throw out an FAQ saying ALL attacks must be resolved even after the target unit is killed... there would be no "suit of hidden knives" as it would be off the table and no toughness to check the wound roll against... Basically, it is not logical to assume attacks are continued when the target is removed because there would be waaaayyyyyy to many broken rule interactions. At least that's my logic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pain4Pleasure wrote: p5freak wrote:
No, they dont. It would be impossible to shoot a unit inside of a transport, after the transport has been destroyed, and the embarked unit has to disembark, if everything happens simultaneously. In fact nothing happens simultaneously. If two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is decides in what order the rules are resolved. Sequencing literally means something happens first, and something else happens after that.
Yes, they do. Citation hilighted in different colors with explanations underneath and order of sequence needed, or you’re wrong. Like always
Literally all precedence in the RAW and direct statement of the RAW suggests attacks happen one at a time... not sure how you explain all things like removing models to get cover saves and interrupting attacks with things like somber sentinels if they didn't,,,, You need to check the BRB and show us where it says they are simultaneous if that's your position. As the RAW literally describes attacks being resolved one at a time and other interactions that would be impossible if they didn't. The only way, partially, around this is fast rolling, and even then the saves and damage are resolved one by one.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 00:17:01
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 06:05:38
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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The Suit of Hidden Knives
Roll a D6 each time a hit roll of 1 is made for an enemy model targeting the wearer in the Fight phase. On a 2+, that model's unit suffers a mortal wound after the unit has resolved all of its attacks.
If your opponent fast rolls its 50 attacks, and he rolls twenty 1s, his unit suffers 20 MW. It doesnt matter if the model who has the suit dies, or not. The MW are generated during hit rolls, and the unit suffers the MWs after all attacks have been resolved. To avoid this, dont fast roll against a model who has the suit. When the model is removed from the battlefield you cant attack it anymore, and cant suffer any MW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pain4Pleasure wrote: p5freak wrote:
No, they dont. It would be impossible to shoot a unit inside of a transport, after the transport has been destroyed, and the embarked unit has to disembark, if everything happens simultaneously. In fact nothing happens simultaneously. If two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is decides in what order the rules are resolved. Sequencing literally means something happens first, and something else happens after that.
Yes, they do. Citation hilighted in different colors with explanations underneath and order of sequence needed, or you’re wrong. Like always
No, they dont. Explain how you can target an embarked unit after the transport has been destroyed, if all shooting is simultaneously. You need to show a citation that says all attacks are simultaneously.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 06:09:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 06:23:35
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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According to the Battle Primer on page 7, attacks are done individually, unless you choose to fast-roll them. You DO, however, have to choose targets (on a per unit basis) before you attack anything. So you can't, for example, fire with half your unit at a Transport, destroy it, and then fire with the other half at the unit that comes out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 07:34:24
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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flandarz wrote:According to the Battle Primer on page 7, attacks are done individually, unless you choose to fast-roll them. You DO, however, have to choose targets (on a per unit basis) before you attack anything. So you can't, for example, fire with half your unit at a Transport, destroy it, and then fire with the other half at the unit that comes out.
That is true. But if shooting is simultaneously your entire army would shoot at the same time, and you wouldnt be able to target a disembarked unit from a destroyed transport. Thats not how it works.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/25 07:35:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 09:08:01
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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p5freak wrote: flandarz wrote:According to the Battle Primer on page 7, attacks are done individually, unless you choose to fast-roll them. You DO, however, have to choose targets (on a per unit basis) before you attack anything. So you can't, for example, fire with half your unit at a Transport, destroy it, and then fire with the other half at the unit that comes out.
That is true. But if shooting is simultaneously your entire army would shoot at the same time, and you wouldnt be able to target a disembarked unit from a destroyed transport. Thats not how it works.
Except the rules state on a per unit basis, resolving the entire sequence of attacks for one unit before moving on to the next. a unit is defined as a model or a group of models that make up one selection from your army roster. so the unit that disembarked becomes a valid target as when you choose to select a target in range with your next unit, they are physically represented on the battlefield.
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5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 09:45:36
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think that, in the way the rule works, you declare your targes & attacks all at once, so for example, if 10 plasmagun dudes overcharge at one unit, and after rolling 4 of them you kill it, you need to go through the remaining models and see if they are killed by their own overcharging weapon.
As you cannot shoot bolters and wait for the result before deciding whether to overcharge your plasma, similarly you cannot resolve the bolters and then ignore the fact you overcharged because the unit is destroyed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 11:39:51
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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simultaneous shooting is per-unit.
Once a unit has fired all of their weapons, all at the same time, another unit can shoot at the results.
Unit 1 pops a transport, then unit 2 can mop up the unit that falls out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2094/09/16 10:20:52
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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For all these people saying shooting is simultaneous, provide some kind of citation.
Then explain how it is that removing models so the unit becomes covered in the middle of those attacks is a legit play (as confirmed possible by FAQs) or how a unit with somber sentinels can interrupt attacks and kill units which have not yet attacked (as confirmed by not having a "do this after all attacks have been resolved clause) .
Why bother with that clause on any unit if attacks are simultaneous ?
Nothing in the game suggests that it works that way ... Isn't this common knowledge, I have never been to a tournament or even to a gaming club where anyone ever claimed anything different,
It's also how pro-players at tournaments sometimes deal with the character rule, they will declare targets as "some weapon attacks on the closer unit, then rest of attacks on character" and then gamble the closer unit dies from the first volly of ranged attacks so the second volly can validly fire at the character ? are you guys saying this common tactic used by pro-players at GW tournies is invalid or are you saying that it is simultaneous only when it is convenient for you ?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 12:01:35
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 12:22:06
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Dakka Veteran
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Type40 wrote:For all these people saying shooting is simultaneous, provide some kind of citation.
Then explain how it is that removing models so the unit becomes covered in the middle of those attacks is a legit play (as confirmed possible by FAQs) or how a unit with somber sentinels can interrupt attacks and kill units which have not yet attacked (as confirmed by not having a "do this after all attacks have been resolved clause) .
Why bother with that clause on any unit if attacks are simultaneous ?
Nothing in the game suggests that it works that way ... Isn't this common knowledge, I have never been to a tournament or even to a gaming club where anyone ever claimed anything different,
It's also how pro-players at tournaments sometimes deal with the character rule, they will declare targets as "some weapon attacks on the closer unit, then rest of attacks on character" and then gamble the closer unit dies from the first volly of ranged attacks so the second volly can validly fire at the character ? are you guys saying this common tactic used by pro-players at GW tournies is invalid or are you saying that it is simultaneous only when it is convenient for you ?
Until GW don`t answer it, people should continue arguing about this kind of topics.
One thing is clear, you can`t declare attacks to character that is not the closest enemy unit. So tournaments are not playing it like this, if they do they are doing it wrong.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 12:24:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 12:48:27
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It’s clear from the rules that attacks aren’t simultaneous. There’s no point in arguing against this. It’s what the rules state.
It’s also clear that you can’t do as you suggest, Type40, as declaring all a unit’s shots must be done before any dice are rolled, and at that point in your example the character isn’t a legitimate target. Those pro players are cheating, I’m afraid.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 12:52:38
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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JohnnyHell wrote:It’s clear from the rules that attacks aren’t simultaneous. There’s no point in arguing against this. It’s what the rules state.
Technically all shooting from a single unit is simultaneous though. We know this because you activate the whole unit then declare whatever attacks that unit is making.
Once you go past that point, you can not go back and declare any other shots from a single unit.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 13:47:02
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Type40 wrote:
It's also how pro-players at tournaments sometimes deal with the character rule, they will declare targets as "some weapon attacks on the closer unit, then rest of attacks on character" and then gamble the closer unit dies from the first volly of ranged attacks so the second volly can validly fire at the character ? are you guys saying this common tactic used by pro-players at GW tournies is invalid or are you saying that it is simultaneous only when it is convenient for you ?
Those players are cheating. Regardless of whether attacks are simultaneous or not, all targets are declared at the same time in step 2 of the shooting process. So yes, I guess we are saying that tactic is invalid (I've also never heard of anyone attempting to do such a thing at the top tables of a tournament).
As far as the original question goes, the rules aren't exactly clear. You resolve attacks one at a time, but only after selecting targets and there's no guidance on what to do if your target isn't there any more. Often it doesn't matter, but in the case of overcharging plasma, or the Harlequin relic it can make a big difference. I think it's an area that GW need to clear up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 14:02:13
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If all attacks are simultaneous, then a unit that has some of it members in cover and some not would not be able to gain a bonus to their save once it removed the models not in cover as the first casualties. We know from GW though that once those are removed you do get the cover save. That's an indication that it's not simultaneous. It's also an indication that once models are removed they don't exist for the purpose of affecting the rest of the shooting, so that would indicate that once the Solitaire is removed from the board its rules won't affec
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 14:07:17
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes, that seems right, they can't be chosen as targets, I'll bring this up next time I see it happen. However, this still doesn't mean attacks are resolved simultaneously. All that has been shown is that deceleration of shots are done simultaneously,,, literally all of the other rules in the shooting phase discuss resolving them one at a time... Seriously guys, read the book. Again, how does it make sense that you can remove models to gain cover for further saves? How does it make sense that you can remove something generating auras? How does it make sense that a somber sentinels unit can interrupt attacks and remove a model before it shoots? All of these things are possible and supported by rules and faqs. Why would they bother creating a step by step guid to resolving attacks one at a time instead of just including fast rolling? Why would they literally write "this is how you resolve attacks one at a time" why have no rules for fast rolling saves and wounds? Do you not see how if attacks were resolved simultaneously it would break tons of other rule interactions?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And go against direct rule statements in the BRB / faqs?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless what you are saying is they are resolved simultaneously except for when actually resolving the attacks (aka by following the rules where it says the sequence resolves them one at a time) in which case it makes absolutely no difference because models get removed before you move on to the next attack. Or is the entire explication in the BRB of the attack sequence just a funny useless page we should ignore? Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's another one, how is it possible that a shield drone who passes its fnp or a slyth can body gaurd multiple times on the same volley of attacks?
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 14:23:07
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 14:31:39
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Type40 wrote:Yes, that seems right, they can't be chosen as targets, I'll bring this up next time I see it happen. However, this still doesn't mean attacks are resolved simultaneously. All that has been shown is that deceleration of shots are done simultaneously,,, literally all of the other rules in the shooting phase discuss resolving them one at a time... Seriously guys, read the book. Again, how does it make sense that you can remove models to gain cover for further saves? How does it make sense that you can remove something generating auras? How does it make sense that a somber sentinels unit can interrupt attacks and remove a model before it shoots? All of these things are possible and supported by rules and faqs. Why would they bother creating a step by step guid to resolving attacks one at a time instead of just including fast rolling? Why would they literally write "this is how you resolve attacks one at a time" why have no rules for fast rolling saves and wounds? Do you not see how if attacks were resolved simultaneously it would break tons of other rule interactions?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And go against direct rule statements in the BRB / faqs?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless what you are saying is they are resolved simultaneously except for when actually resolving the attacks (aka by following the rules where it says the sequence resolves them one at a time) in which case it makes absolutely no difference because models get removed before you move on to the next attack. Or is the entire explication in the BRB of the attack sequence just a funny useless page we should ignore?
Overreact much? Just to summarise the sequence of events in this thread
1. You asked a question about whether attacks should continue being resolved once a model is dead. Apparently this was asked in good faith.
2. A bunch of people say attacks are resolved one at a time but targets are chosen for all models in a unit
3. It's suggested this may lead to weird, unresolved situations and some clarification from GW would be good.
4. Some further evidence is put forward supporting the idea that attacks are resolved one at a time and this can change the board state in meaningful ways (units in cover etc)
5. Your final response is along the lines of "Oh my God guys, I can't believe you're suggesting you keep resolving attacks, you're completely ignoring the BRB. Seriously guys, read the book."
So was this whole thread some not-so-elaborate attempt at a gotcha? Were you interested in having an actual debate about this at all? It doesn't really help the general tone of the board when people legitimately trying to answer a user's question encounter this kind of reaction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 14:34:54
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Read my previous posts, my OP was answered within the first 5 posts, the misinformation about attacks happening simultaneously didn't come up until after that derailing of the conversation. If you want to shame an OP for something please read the entire thread before you pretend you know what is going on.
Arguing about basics, like whether or not attacks are resolved at the same time detracts from my actual question. I am not saying anything even close to "omg i can't believe you think attacks continue to be resolved" I am saying ATTACKS ARE NOT RESOLVED AT THE SAME TIME... so please read my posts instead of shaming someone for something they never said. My question assumes people understand attacks are resolved one at a time and I am asking if you continue to resolve attacks (one at a time) even after the defending unit is removed. My question has since been answered. Shaming an OP and attacking a user instead of discussing rules (especially when you clearly havn't read or grasped the context of the entire conversation) is what is bringing down the general tone of the forum. But thanks for being a good example of what not to do. Please refrain from posting about me in the future, please do post responses to rules discourse, and only rules discourse.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 16:21:39
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 14:57:07
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Dakka Veteran
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Type40 wrote:Read my previous posts, my OP was answered within the first 5 posts, the misinformation about attacks happening simultaneously didn't come up until after that derailing the conversation. If you want to shame an OP for something please read the entire thread before you pretend you know what is going on.
Well, look it from other prospective.
You have multiple models that are in range on single enemy model. First shoots kills the model, the rest models suddenly are out of range.
Since you are out of range now do you stop, since now you don`t oblige to the range requirement ?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 15:09:10
Subject: Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Marin wrote: Type40 wrote:Read my previous posts, my OP was answered within the first 5 posts, the misinformation about attacks happening simultaneously didn't come up until after that derailing the conversation. If you want to shame an OP for something please read the entire thread before you pretend you know what is going on.
Well, look it from other prospective.
You have multiple models that are in range on single enemy model. First shoots kills the model, the rest models suddenly are out of range.
Since you are out of range now do you stop, since now you don`t oblige to the range requirement ?
Nope because attack declaration (and where you check range and los) is simultaneous, then resolution (the attack sequence on the next page : hit rolls, wound rolls, saves, dmg and model removal) is one at a time, as described in the BRB quite clearly.
My OP was asked assuming that a player is slow rolling (I. E. Following the sequencing as described in the BRB where it explains how to resolve attacks one at a time) it was adequately answered based on that rule understanding. Any following arguments about attacks resolving simultaneously or one at a time is derailed from the OP and quite frankly suggests people need to read the battle primer in detail.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 16:24:48
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/25 15:59:06
Subject: Re:Do you discard remaining attacks after the the defending unit is destroyed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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relevant FAQ
Q: If one of my units shoots an enemy unit in which only one
model is visible, and I resolve the attacks one at a time, slaying
that model before I have resolved all of my unit’s attacks, what
happens to the rest of the attacks – are they wasted?
A: No. You determine the number of attacks the firing
unit will make against the target unit before any of those
attacks are made (i.e. before any hit rolls are made). If
you are resolving these attacks one at a time and your
opponent removes the only visible model as a casualty, you
still continue to resolve the remainder of the firing unit’s
attacks against that target.
Some other relevant FAQs demonstrating attacks resolving one at a time :
Q: If a model has an ability that halves damage suffered
(rounding up) such as Marneus Calgar’s Armour of Antilochus
ability, how is that resolved when I am attacked by several attacks
at once? Do I halve the total of all the damage suffered, or do I
halve the damage inflicted by each attack separately?
A: Halve the damage suffered by each attack separately.
Remember that wounds are allocated one at a time.
For example, if Marneus Calgar was wounded by four
boltgun attacks (Damage characteristic 1) and each
saving throw resulted in a failure, Calgar would suffer 0.5
wounds (which is rounded up to 1) four times, and would
therefore lose 4 wounds.
Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does
the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or
just the model making a particular saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially
on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive
the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover.
Now you might ask yourself,,,, when are models removed ? is it simultaneously ?
The answer is no they are not, and they are removed after each non-simultanous attack during step 5 of the resolve attacks sequence in the BRB, as seen here on pg 181 of the BRB
in the shooting phase,
we have
step 1 (choose unit to shoot with)
step 2/3 (choose targets, weapon profiles, how shots are split and check range/ LOS [these steps are done simultaneously as per BRB errata on page 1 of the BRB FAQ])
Step 4
Resolving attacks (this is where the one at a time bit starts)
Attacks can be made one at a time,or,in some cases,you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:
Step 1
Hit roll ( a single hit roll because this sequence is making the attacks one at a time)
Step 2
Wound roll (still a single wound roll)
Step 3
Allocate wounds (your opponent allocates where the wounds will go from the attack)
Step 4
Saving throw (your opponent rolls a saving throw for the model who had the wounds allocated to it)
Step 5
Inflict damage
The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon used in the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0 , it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.
So once we are done this sequences for ONE single attack as described in the explanation text for this entire rule book section (i.e. just under resolve attacks) we have now rolled one hit roll, one wound roll, allocated the wound, rolled a saving throw (if allowed) then allocated damage. Possibly removing a model from play. We can then go on to starting the sequence again for the attacks.
What about fast rolling you might ask ?
fasting rolling is permitted in the following circumstances
The rules for resolving attacks (pg181) have been written assuming you will make them one at a time.However,it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once,all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill(if it’s a shooting attack)or the same Weapon Skill(if it’s a close combat attack).They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics,and they must be directed at the same unit.If this is the case,make all of the hit rolls at the same time,then all of the wound rolls.
So, to fast roll, the attacks MUST target the same unit, have the same WS/ BS, same S , same AP, same DMG.
Then you may roll the hit rolls and wound rolls together... but even then, they are not fully resolved at the same time,,, this is because of the next lines of the fast rolling rules,
Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time,making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.
So even though you may have rolled your hits and wounds together. Your opponent is still required to resolve the wound allocation, saves and dmg one at a time.
The rules on this are quite clear.
So understanding that attacks are resolved one at a time, others have already answered that it is illogical to play as though any remaining attacks must be rolled for and resolved on a unit that has already been removed via step 5 of the attack sequence or within the final steps of the fast rolling rules. Thank you for those of you who clearly answered and clarified my question way earlier in this thread. As for the others arguing about whether or not attacks are made one at a time, I hope this set of information clears it up for you.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/10/25 17:24:00
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW. |
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