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Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

So we haven't had a "improve the WK" thread in a while. I was think about this the other day and ever since 8E dropped it has bother me that Knights and WKs have basically the same profile.
Wraith constructs have always had higher T that their Imperial counter parts. WG have T6 compared to T4 Termies and T5 Gravis models. WLords are T8 while Dreads are T7.
On top of the additional T, those examples often also have more Wounds.
So it doesn't make sense for the Titan size Wraith to not have higher T and/or more wounds that its Imperial equivalent. Ergo, it should be T9

I also feel like Spirit Stones should come standard on the WK. It is unique among Wraith constructs in that it has a living pilot in addition to the spirit stone interred within.
Which when I think about it, it's actually unique because another Wraith construct has the same living pilot + spirit stone setup: the Hemlock....which has spirit stones.

I feel like there's a ton of changes we could make to WKs (indeed tons have been suggested), but at the very minimum, T9 + Spirit stones is a nudge in the right direction, has existing precedence and could EASILY be errata'd. After all, WG and WLs were T5/7 respectively when 8E dropped and GW "fixed" them with an FAQ/Errata prior to the CWE codex fixing them properly.
So why not the WK?

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 15:01:03


   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







The Wraithknight doesn't have enough firepower for its cost; bumping it to T9 doesn't really help there. Consider:

Imperial Knights have two arm weapons. The selections are:
-Avenger gatling cannon: 12 shots at 6/-2/2
-RFBC: 2d6 shots at 8/-2/d3
-Thermal Cannon: d6 shots at 9/-4/d6 with melta (roll twice/pick higher at half range)

Wraithknights choose between having two arm weapons or one arm weapon and an Invulnerable save. The selections are:
-Wraithcannon: 2 shots at 16/-4/d6
-Suncannon: 2d6 shots at 6/-2/2

A Wraithcannon is approximately half of a thermal cannon (better to-wound roll but on average about half the shots and less damage unless at long range), and a Suncannon is about half of an Avenger gatling cannon (average 7 shots v. 12).

Give the Wraithknight double shots from all ranged weapons and a built-in 5++ (scattershield upgrades it to a 4++) and it'd probably be more helpful than T9.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Give the Wraithknight double shots from all ranged weapons and a built-in 5++ (scattershield upgrades it to a 4++) and it'd probably be more helpful than T9.
Shoot twice if it moves half or less isn't something I thought of and I think could be a good solution to it's damage output issue.
I still don't like the idea of it having a stock 5++. It's TOO much like it's trying to be an Imperial Knight. Which is why I think T9 and spirit stones are the way to go. They add something like shoot twice and the WK is back in business

-

   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Galef wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Give the Wraithknight double shots from all ranged weapons and a built-in 5++ (scattershield upgrades it to a 4++) and it'd probably be more helpful than T9.
Shoot twice if it moves half or less isn't something I thought of and I think could be a good solution to it's damage output issue.
I still don't like the idea of it having a stock 5++. It's TOO much like it's trying to be an Imperial Knight. Which is why I think T9 and spirit stones are the way to go. They add something like shoot twice and the WK is back in business

-


Vehicles without an Invulnerable save can't really exist on the table in 8th Edition unless they're sub-100pts or have some other damage mitigation (Wave Serpents) because armies need to come with firepower to kill an Imperial Knight. The 5++ isn't "trying to be an Imperial Knight" so much as it is the minimum bar for being a viable heavy vehicle in 8th Edition.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Any of the new traits do anything for it?

The cover one seems nice as it gives it a 2+ which aint too shabby. With Spirit stones and T9 thats almost pretty decent.

Alternatively just allow it to DS near a spirit seer for the specialist strategem.

I really like the skatchah knight int terms of loadout options and rules. But the points just make both of these unplayable where an abiotic airwing is on offer for similar cost lol.

I dunno. The WK is a mess and I have no idea how to fix it. I never understood why it cant take bright lances though...Not that it matters because with current points its more of a sink lol.

Maybe we will get a new codex sooner rather than later or at least major point drops in CA.
I would love a glaive variant to be very cheap like the WL to blast them at the enemy lines distraction carnifex style. alas currently thats too much of an investment.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 20:21:24


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
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Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vehicles without an Invulnerable save can't really exist on the table in 8th Edition unless they're sub-100pts or have some other damage mitigation (Wave Serpents) because armies need to come with firepower to kill an Imperial Knight. The 5++ isn't "trying to be an Imperial Knight" so much as it is the minimum bar for being a viable heavy vehicle in 8th Edition.
While I agree that big vehicles and monsters need more durability in 8E, I wholeheartedly disagree that the answer should be "slap a 5++ on it". That is utterly uncreative and lazy.
And for the WK in particular, it invalidates the Scattershield, even if you then make that a 4++. Unless you are giving the shield a 3++ (which would be broken), why bother taking it?

T9 and spirit stones give CLOSE to the same result in many situation as a having a 5++, but has loads more character and consistency with other Wraith units
It's meant to be a subtle bump, which combined with your excellent shoot twice suggestion would make the WK worth it's current price point.
Anything more and you have to start increasing it's already high cost

-

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think I really like the T9 + spirit stones proposal. As you've pointed out, it would be consistent and fluffy. While T9 doesn't help against Strength 5-7, it does make strength 8 and 9 weapons wound less easily; and those are the guns that tend to do d6 damage.

Spirit Stones will average enough 6+s over the course of a game to feel like they mattered but not so much as to make the WK *too* durable.

I don't think this is a complete fix for them, but T9 and Spirit Stones could definitely have a place in a more complete rework of the WK.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




IMO the shield is part of the problem - and stomp.

It came from an edition where the miniature design choices were heavily impacted by rules decisions - namely that heavy melee struck last and so needed an invulnerable save. The Knight was swept up in the design of the guard (axes struck last) for some reason.

But now it's a relic of non existent rules.


IMO. It needs to change into a weapon that is also a shield. Swapping a gun for a 5++ is a terrible choice that nothing else seems to have to make.

Add to that is war walkers already have a power field, so it's not exactly precedence breaking.



The shield could be A serpent shield, or follow similar rules.

It's also blade like, so could be a melee weapon As well. Having a gun and shield where the shield is a worse melee weapon than the sword, but comes with an improved save.
Sword AND shield would then be an actual option rather than just the cheapest one.


Guns should also be better, rather than being given extra rules to shoot twice.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 22:54:37


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




@Hellebore:
And now I'm picturing the wraith knight sweeping its arm-mounted serpent shield equivalent in front of itself releasing an anime-style ranged force slash that deals mortal wounds! :O

Yeah, baked in 5+ invul doesn't NOT make sense in an army with lots of force/hollo/shimmer field technology. Making the arm shield a damage reducer would give the WK a huge boost in durability against things like disintegrators and autocannons (imperial fist version or otherwise). I like this suggestion a lot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 22:58:59


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






Not even referencing the Wraithknight, a lot more things should be Toughness, 9-10-11, etc. And a handful of weapons should be as well.

GW made a big deal about a limitless stat-line...and then didn't use it. If you want to make a melta or fusion gun not look like complete garbage vs, Plasma it's as simple as making it Strength 9, etc. There's a lot of room in the game, and GW oddly kind of stuck to its old stats for waaaaaay too many things without realizing what a poor impact it would have on the new evolution of the game.

Bump some things to Toughness 9, then move Lascannons and Melta to Strength 10 even, so they have an absolute place at the table vs. almost any vehicles/units. Plasma can stay at 7/8 and it would balance out, etc.

Back on topic, yeah the Wraithknight is still in a terrible spot despite a points reduction. Almost any help would be neat to see them on the table.

 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

@Elbow: I agree that S/T "scale" really isn't being taken advantage of overall. IMO, I'd make basic Marines 2W/2A (still T4) with Primaris getting a bump to T5 (Gravis T6...maybe). I'd continue this trend so that there are more groups of units in different T brackets instead of 90% of all Infatry at T3/4 and 90% Vehicles/Monsters at T6/7 and Titans at T8.
Even just bumping the majority of those groups by 1 would make a difference (most Infantry T3-6, Vehicles/Monsters 6-8 and Titanic 8/9)
There really should be more scaling an as you said, then we can start given Lascannon/Melta equivalents S10

However, working with just what we have and only looking for fixes to the WK, I think T9 + SS is best for consistency. We could even go a step further and throw 2-4 more wounds onto the WK since Dreads are 8Ws and WLs are 10

Wyldhunt wrote:
I think I really like the T9 + spirit stones proposal. As you've pointed out, it would be consistent and fluffy. While T9 doesn't help against Strength 5-7, it does make strength 8 and 9 weapons wound less easily; and those are the guns that tend to do d6 damage.

Spirit Stones will average enough 6+s over the course of a game to feel like they mattered but not so much as to make the WK *too* durable.

I don't think this is a complete fix for them, but T9 and Spirit Stones could definitely have a place in a more complete rework of the WK.
Exactly, my proposal isn't supposed to 100% fix the WK because we all acknowledge the deficiency in its damage output, but T9 + SS is good *ENOUGH* and just seems waaaaaaay too logical for it not to already be the case.

If we can get that change to the durability out of the way, we don't have to change the weapon profile too drastically.
I REALLY like the double shots idea too. It has precedence across so may other units and would be an easy "slap-on" ability: If the WK moved half or less of it's M stat, it can be selected to shoot twice

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/25 13:27:12


   
Made in us
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The scattershield should have an offensive portion to it. Make it like the Wave Serpent shield with a small exception. If the wraithknight makes a save of a 5+ vs a Ranged weapon, roll a D6, on a 2+ it hits the closest visible enemy unit within 24" and does D3 mortal wounds. Only one roll is made per turn, regardless of how many saves of 5+ made.

You then need to allow the wraithknight to mix and match weapons from the box. Fixed loadouts is silly.

Strategem to make a Knight a character. Have a relic suncannon that is straight Heavy 12 or simply roll 3D6, discard lowest..

Heavy Wraithcannon Damage to D6 with minimum of 3.

So many other things you could do, and agree, Spirit Stones should be auto.

   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 bullyboy wrote:
You then need to allow the wraithknight to mix and match weapons from the box. Fixed loadouts is silly.

Heavy Wraithcannon Damage to D6 with minimum of 3.

So many other things you could do, and agree, Spirit Stones should be auto.

Agree with all this. Fixed loadouts make no sense for a construct so big. And the kit could 100% allow for Suncannon/HWC or HWC/Shield builds
I also think the should gun slots should allow for Lances & EMLs, but the kit doesn't include them, so GW would never let that happen.

And yeah, kinda silly that a Reaper Launcher or Pulse Laser are auto Damage:3, but a HWC could roll a 1 or 2. Min damage 3 would go a long way, As would being Assault 3 though that wouldn't be necessary if the WK could shoot twice.

-

   
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





This issue would be solved if they ported out superheavies out of 40k and make them apoc exclusive.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 skchsan wrote:
This issue would be solved if they ported out superheavies out of 40k and make them apoc exclusive.
This was actually one issue that I thought of before WKs became Super Heavies. They were originally just Heavy Support MCs. Even in 7E I did not want them to become LoW GMCs because I knew some people would want them moved to Apoc only, or worse they'd be OP. And behold when the change was made, WKs dominated the 7E meta.

There is no way WKs (or any Knights) are going to Apoc only at this point. You can't put those worms back in the can

-

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Galef wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
This issue would be solved if they ported out superheavies out of 40k and make them apoc exclusive.
This was actually one issue that I thought of before WKs became Super Heavies. They were originally just Heavy Support MCs. Even in 7E I did not want them to become LoW GMCs because I knew some people would want them moved to Apoc only, or worse they'd be OP. And behold when the change was made, WKs dominated the 7E meta.

There is no way WKs (or any Knights) are going to Apoc only at this point. You can't put those worms back in the can

-

Sadly true. Flyers, GMCs, superheavies and a fair bit of other stuff make no sense in 40k but they're not leaving.

Personally I really like the idea of mixed loadouts as fixed ones do make no sense at all. Although it's a shame the kit doesn't allow for two guns, shield and the sword.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

pm713 wrote:
Although it's a shame the kit doesn't allow for two guns, shield and the sword.
Technically the kit does if you use the shoulder mounts, and I don't just mean the Shuricannon/Scatters/Star cannon.
You can totally put the HWCs on the WKs shoulders in the same way a WL could have Bright Lances there

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/25 20:13:01


   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Although it's a shame the kit doesn't allow for two guns, shield and the sword.
Technically the kit does if you use the shoulder mounts, and I don't just mean the Shuricannon/Scatters/Star cannon.
You can totally put the HWCs on the WKs shoulders in the same way a WL could have Bright Lances there



This is my biggest issue with the model - the kit was designed based on a ruleset that completely hobbled it because those rules no longer exist

I actually can't think of another model whose design was so destroyed by a rules shift like this.

If I were GW,. I'd change the instructions to include shoulder mounting, even if it's a tiny conversion and not intended.

If also show it assembled with every configuration you can do with the model.

Without any conversion work, you can assemble it like this:


Two wraithcannons and a sword
One wraithcannon and a suncannon and a sword
Two wraithcannons
Wraithcannon and suncannon
Sword and shield
Wraithcannon, sword shield
Suncannon, sword, shield

And that's just using the hands and arms - unlike the shield, there's no arm obstruction for the sword although it does look little restrictive, but that's what happens when they don't give you a left hand sword option....






   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

So T9 + Spirit stones, more customizable weapon loadouts (potentially allowing the Shield with any weapon loadout).

If we do this, I would up the cost of the Shield to about 50ppm, but lower the base cost of the WK to about 285. That way you can get the shield as now for about the same cost, but you don't HAVE to if you want to save points

-

   
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Irked Necron Immortal



Colorado

-Removed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 01:17:00


 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






 Galef wrote:
So T9 + Spirit stones, more customizable weapon loadouts (potentially allowing the Shield with any weapon loadout).

If we do this, I would up the cost of the Shield to about 50ppm, but lower the base cost of the WK to about 285. That way you can get the shield as now for about the same cost, but you don't HAVE to if you want to save points

-


Only if the shield gives him a 4++ or a 5++ and inbuild fnp by the source of spirit stone...

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

You know, T9, Spirit Stones as standard (let Ulthwe re-roll 1's for Spirit Stones) and bump the wounds to 30 and it may actually be very survivable without the need for a 5++ as standard.

Bump the HWC to 2D6 damage and the Suncannon to 3D6 shots so that it might actually kill something and I'd use it.
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Galef wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vehicles without an Invulnerable save can't really exist on the table in 8th Edition unless they're sub-100pts or have some other damage mitigation (Wave Serpents) because armies need to come with firepower to kill an Imperial Knight. The 5++ isn't "trying to be an Imperial Knight" so much as it is the minimum bar for being a viable heavy vehicle in 8th Edition.
While I agree that big vehicles and monsters need more durability in 8E, I wholeheartedly disagree that the answer should be "slap a 5++ on it". That is utterly uncreative and lazy.
And for the WK in particular, it invalidates the Scattershield, even if you then make that a 4++. Unless you are giving the shield a 3++ (which would be broken), why bother taking it?

T9 and spirit stones give CLOSE to the same result in many situation as a having a 5++, but has loads more character and consistency with other Wraith units
It's meant to be a subtle bump, which combined with your excellent shoot twice suggestion would make the WK worth it's current price point.
Anything more and you have to start increasing it's already high cost

-


"Creative" rules writing produces bloat. Not everything needs to be perfectly unique and characterful. Imagine the problems of Sigmar (a "shield" has to do different things in every army book) spread across the breadth of 40k; should a "boltgun" have different rules depending on whether a Space Marine, a Guardsman, a Battle Sister, a Chaos Marine, a Sister of Silence, or an Inquisitor is carrying it?

I'm exaggerating, perhaps for comic effect, but I think "slap a 5++ on it" plugs the major holes in the Wraithknight (dies too quickly to concentrated fire, has to give up a gun to get an Invulnerable save) without making up more unique rules to stack more bloat onto a system already groaning under the weight of all the unique rules introduced for flavour.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vehicles without an Invulnerable save can't really exist on the table in 8th Edition unless they're sub-100pts or have some other damage mitigation (Wave Serpents) because armies need to come with firepower to kill an Imperial Knight. The 5++ isn't "trying to be an Imperial Knight" so much as it is the minimum bar for being a viable heavy vehicle in 8th Edition.
While I agree that big vehicles and monsters need more durability in 8E, I wholeheartedly disagree that the answer should be "slap a 5++ on it". That is utterly uncreative and lazy.
And for the WK in particular, it invalidates the Scattershield, even if you then make that a 4++. Unless you are giving the shield a 3++ (which would be broken), why bother taking it?

T9 and spirit stones give CLOSE to the same result in many situation as a having a 5++, but has loads more character and consistency with other Wraith units
It's meant to be a subtle bump, which combined with your excellent shoot twice suggestion would make the WK worth it's current price point.
Anything more and you have to start increasing it's already high cost

-


"Creative" rules writing produces bloat. Not everything needs to be perfectly unique and characterful. Imagine the problems of Sigmar (a "shield" has to do different things in every army book) spread across the breadth of 40k; should a "boltgun" have different rules depending on whether a Space Marine, a Guardsman, a Battle Sister, a Chaos Marine, a Sister of Silence, or an Inquisitor is carrying it?

I'm exaggerating, perhaps for comic effect, but I think "slap a 5++ on it" plugs the major holes in the Wraithknight (dies too quickly to concentrated fire, has to give up a gun to get an Invulnerable save) without making up more unique rules to stack more bloat onto a system already groaning under the weight of all the unique rules introduced for flavour.


How is it bloat ? Spirit stones/ FNP already exists. If you take one you are casting fortune on it 100%. The issue is if you don't get first turn or power fails.. Happy to pay 10 points for a 6+++ and call it a day so my farseer can do other stuff .. the WK data sheet already exists... Giving innate invuln is already a thing. Its like one sentence on the data sheet. Its tweaks to a single existing data sheet. Changing load out options likewise is just slight tweak. I would be opposed to go IK route and have the same looking model WK variant called different things and have different strats. (they all look the same to me...)

Increasing its movement if it goes sword and board would be cool and again very easily implemented. "add "3 to this models movement characteristic if this option is take in addition"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/10 23:57:38


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
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"Bloat" is when you say "We can't do the thing you'd expect, this thing's rules need to be unique". It's a comment on the design philosophy more than the idea of doing Spirit Stones specifically.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
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Wicked Warp Spider






 AnomanderRake wrote:
"Bloat" is when you say "We can't do the thing you'd expect, this thing's rules need to be unique". It's a comment on the design philosophy more than the idea of doing Spirit Stones specifically.


I'm sorry I don't follow.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune




T9 is generally viewed as not balanced for 2k points, an comes with a steep cost in most instances.
Even if new salamanders can have a t9 w9 s16-18 character. However FW is prop getting nuked in CA2019 if rumours are true.

Big targets generally do not work in 8th Edition unless they can reach immortal levels of damage reduction or can clear an entire armies/and or their threats from the table. e.g. Warlord Titan and Knight Castellan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 23:57:02


 
   
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 Argive wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
"Bloat" is when you say "We can't do the thing you'd expect, this thing's rules need to be unique". It's a comment on the design philosophy more than the idea of doing Spirit Stones specifically.


I'm sorry I don't follow.


Imagine the Fly rule for a moment. At the moment it describes models with jump packs, wings, jetbikes, hover-tanks of all sorts, airplanes, floating daemons, etc. This is a case in which having one common rule to treat a set of functionally similar things in a similar way is useful. You could claim that every single mechanism of achieving flight is in-universe a different thing that might not function exactly the same as all the rest and you might want to give your pet special-unique-thingy different rules from the common rule because it'd be boring and lazy if all things that fly do so in the same fashion, but if "uniqueness" is a valuable thing to your design philosophy you start needing to write different rules for jump packs, wings, jetbikes, hover-tanks, airplanes, floating daemons, etc., and then you have to start asking why an Imperial jump pack, an Eldar jump pack, and a Tau jump pack all do the same thing.

I disagree with the idea that there's value in making your rules "more unique" for the sake of making them more unique. If uniqueness is your sole end you start walking into the territory of Age of Sigmar where a "shield" does different things depending on which army you're in and you need to learn forty-seven different slight variants on the same rule (number exaggerated for comic effect) to play the game and it doesn't really add anything to the experience.

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Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
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Wicked Warp Spider






I don't think any suggestions have been about uniqnuess for the sake of uniqueness though... T9 is a straight up stat change and is unique but it also serves as apurpose of addressing survivability without an innate invuln for example. Shoot twice counters the limited weapon loadouts etc. These are all one sentence abiltiies and are very USRish.

Its not like hes about to get 10 doctrines to pick from, depending on what turn he is in, what you have declared and what gun he happens to be firing which of the 100 stratagems he an use etc..

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 Galef wrote:
...I wholeheartedly disagree that the answer should be "slap a 5++ on it". That is utterly uncreative and lazy...T9 and spirit stones give CLOSE to the same result in many situation as a having a 5++, but has loads more character...

Victoria est autem vita.

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