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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




The Iron Cage blurb in IF supplement mentions that despite the Iron Warriors having superior positions and everything, the IF fought them to a stand still and after Guilleman arrived, Pert BARELY escaped Dorn's wrath
Instead of the reality where the Iron Cage was a black eye on the IF's pride due to failing to capture Perturabo, and hundreds of Fists dying for nothing
The blurb doesn't even mention how Perturabo ascended because of the Iron Cage

Who the heck is responsible for this constant undermining of the Iron Warriors?

[Thumb - 20191027_163106.jpg]
The Blurb in question

[Thumb - Screenshot_20191027-164815_Adobe Acrobat.jpg]
The original lore

   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





FERRUMITE wrote:
The Iron Cage blurb in IF supplement mentions that despite the Iron Warriors having superior positions and everything, the IF fought them to a stand still and after Guilleman arrived, Pert BARELY escaped Dorn's wrath
Instead of the reality where the Iron Cage was a black eye on the IF's pride due to failing to capture Perturabo, and hundreds of Fists dying for nothing
The blurb doesn't even mention how Perturabo ascended because of the Iron Cage

Who the heck is responsible for this constant undermining of the Iron Warriors?



Well clearly it's the same guy who made sure that a unit of devastators with IF tactics and heavy bolters are Heavy 3, S5 Ap-2 D2, ignore cover, hit rolls of 6 generate 2 hits, and a unit of Havocs with IW tactics....just ignore cover

Hurp-a-Derp, errybody's gonna get their 2.0dex don't worry guiz!!!!!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Everyone is the superhero in their own codex.
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept




UK

It’s the whole ‘One story from two sides’ thing that 40k so likes to do, whether intentionally or not.

Imperial Soup
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Made in us
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Yeah, I wouldn't take it too seriously, especially since its from the perspective of the IF for the supplement. It'll probably say the opposite for when they (if they ever do) the equivalent for Iron Warriors, or when they revisit the Iron Warrior history timeline in the chaos codex.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




This is why Imperial Fists are the worst Chapter. You have to basically rewrite fluff. Yeah they totally held their own at The Iron Cage! Yeah Dorn totally manages to outsmart Alpharius AND kill him!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is why Imperial Fists are the worst Chapter. You have to basically rewrite fluff. Yeah they totally held their own at The Iron Cage! Yeah Dorn totally manages to outsmart Alpharius AND kill him!


I mean i get it, the Alpha legion is everywhere and does everything,well, important, but i believe distinctly that at the time they were on coffee break on terra, probably.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is why Imperial Fists are the worst Chapter. You have to basically rewrite fluff. Yeah they totally held their own at The Iron Cage! Yeah Dorn totally manages to outsmart Alpharius AND kill him!


I mean i get it, the Alpha legion is everywhere and does everything,well, important, but i believe distinctly that at the time they were on coffee break on terra, probably.

That would be a better read than that piece of garbage Praetorian of Dorn, which WAS written by a self-admitted Imperial Fists fanboy that wanted to make them look good!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is why Imperial Fists are the worst Chapter. You have to basically rewrite fluff. Yeah they totally held their own at The Iron Cage! Yeah Dorn totally manages to outsmart Alpharius AND kill him!


I mean i get it, the Alpha legion is everywhere and does everything,well, important, but i believe distinctly that at the time they were on coffee break on terra, probably.

That would be a better read than that piece of garbage Praetorian of Dorn, which WAS written by a self-admitted Imperial Fists fanboy that wanted to make them look good!


I don't interupt my coffee breaks for anyone, especially not becaus i should step in for slanderous plebians.

*slurps coffee in cheaply goldpainted MK3 Armor

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




phillv85 wrote:
It’s the whole ‘One story from two sides’ thing that 40k so likes to do, whether intentionally or not.

The problem with this however is the only time the Iron Cage is referenced anymore is in loyalist codices and even the Warhammer Community article mentioned that the Iron Cage was a standstill despite the original lore stating Dorn rushed in foolishly because the implication that he was still mentally unhinged from the trauma of seeing the Emperor get nearly killed by Horus
The original version very clearly shows Pert winning because of how planned out it was
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

As much as we all may hate them changing something, it happens. Its their story, they will do with it what they will. Dont worry, they wrote the abomination that is The Beast Arises Series, where the Orks finished off the OG Fists for Perty.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 16:18:41


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





the_scotsman wrote:
FERRUMITE wrote:
The Iron Cage blurb in IF supplement mentions that despite the Iron Warriors having superior positions and everything, the IF fought them to a stand still and after Guilleman arrived, Pert BARELY escaped Dorn's wrath
Instead of the reality where the Iron Cage was a black eye on the IF's pride due to failing to capture Perturabo, and hundreds of Fists dying for nothing
The blurb doesn't even mention how Perturabo ascended because of the Iron Cage

Who the heck is responsible for this constant undermining of the Iron Warriors?



Well clearly it's the same guy who made sure that a unit of devastators with IF tactics and heavy bolters are Heavy 3, S5 Ap-2 D2, ignore cover, hit rolls of 6 generate 2 hits, and a unit of Havocs with IW tactics....just ignore cover

Hurp-a-Derp, errybody's gonna get their 2.0dex don't worry guiz!!!!!



Spoiler:


   
Made in fr
Death-Dealing Devastator



Madrid, Spain

I love how people is like: the IF version is just propaganda. The Iron Warriors version is fully true and gospel.
Who's to say that?
Wouldn't you expect both to be biased?

IW fans got used to their version and will feel salty when facing the truth, that maybe Perturabo's win was so pirrhic they should stop bragging about it as if he had crushed IFs.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




DanielFM wrote:
I love how people is like: the IF version is just propaganda. The Iron Warriors version is fully true and gospel.
Who's to say that?
Wouldn't you expect both to be biased?

IW fans got used to their version and will feel salty when facing the truth, that maybe Perturabo's win was so pirrhic they should stop bragging about it as if he had crushed IFs.

I mean, a pyrrhic victory doesnt grant you Daemonhood. Also the IW version of the Iron Cage has only appeared in the Index Astartes, and every version of the Iron Cage since has been the IF version. It seems kinda crappy because it takes the one legitimate victory the IW had against the IF in favor of making it lame situation where Pert seemingly almost died but yet was granted Daemonhood?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FERRUMITE wrote:

I mean, a pyrrhic victory doesnt grant you Daemonhood.


If it generates enough corpses it does.

FERRUMITE wrote:

Also the IW version of the Iron Cage has only appeared in the Index Astartes, and every version of the Iron Cage since has been the IF version. It seems kinda crappy because it takes the one legitimate victory the IW had against the IF in favor of making it lame situation where Pert seemingly almost died but yet was granted Daemonhood?


Here's the part you seem to be not comprehending: narrators in 30k-40k fluff arent omniscient. There's always a bias, always an interpretive angle. Nothing you read is the full truth. Everything, every story, every legend, every fact, is in part or in whole a lie.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 17:26:23


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sterling191 wrote:
FERRUMITE wrote:

I mean, a pyrrhic victory doesnt grant you Daemonhood.


If it generates enough corpses it does.

FERRUMITE wrote:

Also the IW version of the Iron Cage has only appeared in the Index Astartes, and every version of the Iron Cage since has been the IF version. It seems kinda crappy because it takes the one legitimate victory the IW had against the IF in favor of making it lame situation where Pert seemingly almost died but yet was granted Daemonhood?


Here's the part you seem to be not comprehending: narrators in 30k-40k fluff arent omniscient. There's always a bias, always an interpretive angle. Nothing you read is the full truth. Everything, every story, every legend, every fact, is in part or in whole a lie.

Except ALL fluff regarding the Iron Cage has been pure Iron Warriors victory until just recently. This isn't just "Iron Warriors bias" coming up all the sudden and you can't blame that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Loyalist marines aren't allowed to have a proper lost.

Even giant loses like Istvaan V are retconed piece by piece to make them worse and worse for traitors and better and better for loyalist.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galas wrote:
Loyalist marines aren't allowed to have a proper lost.

Even giant loses like Istvaan V are retconed piece by piece to make them worse and worse for traitors and better and better for loyalist.


I don't see Cadia coming back together though.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
FERRUMITE wrote:

I mean, a pyrrhic victory doesnt grant you Daemonhood.


If it generates enough corpses it does.

FERRUMITE wrote:

Also the IW version of the Iron Cage has only appeared in the Index Astartes, and every version of the Iron Cage since has been the IF version. It seems kinda crappy because it takes the one legitimate victory the IW had against the IF in favor of making it lame situation where Pert seemingly almost died but yet was granted Daemonhood?


Here's the part you seem to be not comprehending: narrators in 30k-40k fluff arent omniscient. There's always a bias, always an interpretive angle. Nothing you read is the full truth. Everything, every story, every legend, every fact, is in part or in whole a lie.

Except ALL fluff regarding the Iron Cage has been pure Iron Warriors victory until just recently. This isn't just "Iron Warriors bias" coming up all the sudden and you can't blame that.


Im pretty sure when I started in like 3.5. or 4 it was still one of those up in the air, but still not great for the Imperial Fists sorta things. If anything its just been made more clear that it wasnt good for either of them. With the newest version being "Eh it wasnt that bad." Obviously "its not that bad" is a bad approach. But the, it sucked, but could have gone either way, is more in keeping with the old manner of everyone being unreliable.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Loyalist marines aren't allowed to have a proper lost.

Even giant loses like Istvaan V are retconed piece by piece to make them worse and worse for traitors and better and better for loyalist.


I don't see Cadia coming back together though.


You mean Cadia the Planet Cadia wich Fall caused a MASSIVE warp storm that tore the imperium in half with tons of giant battles and worlds succumbing until Guilliman appeard in every one of them in his Crusade that lasted two pages and gave REINFORCEMENT of ULTRA MEGA MARINES to everybody? That Cadia? The one were Abaddon had to destroy his ultra mega weapon in a dessesperation move to win and caused him GIANT loses to his armies?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/28 18:17:26


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
You mean Cadia the Planet Cadia wich Fall caused a MASSIVE warp storm that tore the imperium in half with tons of giant battles and worlds succumbing until Guilliman appeard in every one of them in his Crusade that lasted two pages and gave REINFORCEMENT of ULTRA MEGA MARINES to everybody? That Cadia? The one were Abaddon had to destroy his ultra mega weapon in a dessesperation move to win and caused him GIANT loses to his armies?


Cadia is a weird one - because storywise its clearly meant to be a big Imperial defeat, but GW clearly decided this would upset people, so every aspect of it seems to get talked down.
"The Planet broke before the Guard did" and btw Chaos took loads of casualties - okay, so what was the point then?

I remember how when the book came out people thought it might be the first step towards the second siege of Terra. Instead, yeah, rendered pointless immediately.

Chaos are these moustache-twirling villains who turn up, get a bit miffed and then disappear into the warp.
The Imperium meanwhile is supposedly divided and overstretched - but mysteriously always seems to have enough stuff at the right place at any time it matters.
   
Made in ie
Missionary On A Mission





Tyel wrote:
 Galas wrote:
You mean Cadia the Planet Cadia wich Fall caused a MASSIVE warp storm that tore the imperium in half with tons of giant battles and worlds succumbing until Guilliman appeard in every one of them in his Crusade that lasted two pages and gave REINFORCEMENT of ULTRA MEGA MARINES to everybody? That Cadia? The one were Abaddon had to destroy his ultra mega weapon in a dessesperation move to win and caused him GIANT loses to his armies?


Cadia is a weird one - because storywise its clearly meant to be a big Imperial defeat, but GW clearly decided this would upset people, so every aspect of it seems to get talked down.
"The Planet broke before the Guard did" and btw Chaos took loads of casualties - okay, so what was the point then?

I remember how when the book came out people thought it might be the first step towards the second siege of Terra. Instead, yeah, rendered pointless immediately.

Chaos are these moustache-twirling villains who turn up, get a bit miffed and then disappear into the warp.
The Imperium meanwhile is supposedly divided and overstretched - but mysteriously always seems to have enough stuff at the right place at any time it matters.


Well no one wants tolay a faction where one of their defining events is "A planet exploded and tore the galaxy in half because they suck."

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Galas wrote:
You mean Cadia the Planet Cadia wich Fall caused a MASSIVE warp storm that tore the imperium in half with tons of giant battles and worlds succumbing until Guilliman appeard in every one of them in his Crusade that lasted two pages and gave REINFORCEMENT of ULTRA MEGA MARINES to everybody? That Cadia? The one were Abaddon had to destroy his ultra mega weapon in a dessesperation move to win and caused him GIANT loses to his armies?


Cadia is a weird one - because storywise its clearly meant to be a big Imperial defeat, but GW clearly decided this would upset people, so every aspect of it seems to get talked down.
"The Planet broke before the Guard did" and btw Chaos took loads of casualties - okay, so what was the point then?

I remember how when the book came out people thought it might be the first step towards the second siege of Terra. Instead, yeah, rendered pointless immediately.

Chaos are these moustache-twirling villains who turn up, get a bit miffed and then disappear into the warp.
The Imperium meanwhile is supposedly divided and overstretched - but mysteriously always seems to have enough stuff at the right place at any time it matters.


Well no one wants tolay a faction where one of their defining events is "A planet exploded and tore the galaxy in half because they suck."


Theres ways and ways of writting a lose without making the defenders seem as morons. But you have to know how to writte to do it.

Cadia made the attackers feel completely useless and made the defeat nearly a victory.

"CADIA FELL BUT THERES BILLIONS OF CADIANS OUT THERE IN OTHER WORLDS THAT ARE NOW BURNING WITH AVENGING FIRE!" 1cp to destroy your friendship with the Chaos Player of your play-group.


Also lets remember the "Theres Cadians in the surroundings satellites and planets of Cadia stil fighting the good fight and putting in halt the advance of chaos forces from the eye of terror."

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Galas wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Galas wrote:
You mean Cadia the Planet Cadia wich Fall caused a MASSIVE warp storm that tore the imperium in half with tons of giant battles and worlds succumbing until Guilliman appeard in every one of them in his Crusade that lasted two pages and gave REINFORCEMENT of ULTRA MEGA MARINES to everybody? That Cadia? The one were Abaddon had to destroy his ultra mega weapon in a dessesperation move to win and caused him GIANT loses to his armies?


Cadia is a weird one - because storywise its clearly meant to be a big Imperial defeat, but GW clearly decided this would upset people, so every aspect of it seems to get talked down.
"The Planet broke before the Guard did" and btw Chaos took loads of casualties - okay, so what was the point then?

I remember how when the book came out people thought it might be the first step towards the second siege of Terra. Instead, yeah, rendered pointless immediately.

Chaos are these moustache-twirling villains who turn up, get a bit miffed and then disappear into the warp.
The Imperium meanwhile is supposedly divided and overstretched - but mysteriously always seems to have enough stuff at the right place at any time it matters.


Well no one wants tolay a faction where one of their defining events is "A planet exploded and tore the galaxy in half because they suck."


Theres ways and ways of writting a lose without making the defenders seem as morons. But you have to know how to writte to do it.

Cadia made the attackers feel completely useless and made the defeat nearly a victory.

"CADIA FELL BUT THERES BILLIONS OF CADIANS OUT THERE IN OTHER WORLDS THAT ARE NOW BURNING WITH AVENGING FIRE!" 1cp to destroy your friendship with the Chaos Player of your play-group.
*


Also lets remember the "Theres Cadians in the surroundings satellites and planets of Cadia stil fighting the good fight and putting in halt the advance of chaos forces from the eye of terror."


* except of course your local chaos player is a bro, then maybee don't be a dick.

Also single best describtion of that stratagem

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Inconsistencies in the fluff are the rule, not the exception. For starters, GW has little interest in 100% accurate, gospel truth about the history of the 40k universe. Especially events from the early days, which by year 40k would be myths more than histories anyway.

Latter 40k has moved to more of an omniscient, third person narrative, which I personally think is a shame because the unreliable narrators inherent in the fluff through about 4th edition were a big part of the charm.

finally, the complaint that "every loyalist defeat is turned into a victory" is I suppose fair, but then you remember that despite the grim dark, 40k has at most comic book morality. Chaos are cartoon villains. They no more win at the end of the story than the Joker will win. That sounds like the good guys always win... but the Joker ALWAYS escapes. So yes, every campaign, battle, crusade, WAAGGH, whatever is eventually spun as a victory for the imperium. However... the problem is that no amount of such victories will ever undo the damage done. The Imperium is doomed, and all the Space marines are doing is fighting for time.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
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Please leave my town.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except ALL fluff regarding the Iron Cage has been pure Iron Warriors victory until just recently.

Uhhh, no. Pete Haines wrote both versions of the Iron Cage incident at the same time back in 2001, and they were first published a mere 3 months apart in WD 256 (for the IW version where Perturabo wins daemonhood and Dorn has to be ignominiously rescued by Guilliman) and 259 (for the IF version where Perturabo fails to finish off the Fists and Dorn succeeds in cleansing his legion of doubt). Pete deliberately wrote them as the biased and self-justifying interpretations of the same event from two opposing points of view. This way of writing fluff was very much 'how it was done' in 3rd edition, a very deliberate contrast to the third-person-omniscient style of 2nd edition background material.

"Everyone in 40K is wrong." - ADB

Wishing for other people's armies/factions to be squatted should be a bannable offence. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Polonius wrote:
Inconsistencies in the fluff are the rule, not the exception. For starters, GW has little interest in 100% accurate, gospel truth about the history of the 40k universe. Especially events from the early days, which by year 40k would be myths more than histories anyway.


That sounds like a convinient excuse for not wanting to fact check their stuff or have lore proof readers for their books. Practicaly the same way as they write their rules. The rules guys can always say, that they didn't think people would play the game that way, and the book writers can always say that everything is only half truths. Kind of a hard to build a believable living world, if everything can be a lie. Practicaly everything can be true then, even fan fiction.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Wasnt that the point? To let people build their own stories in a vast setting where anything could be true or false? Where you could have Your Dudes, who see things from one point of view while your Friends Dudes, see them another? Hence why people were upset that the Heresy is fleshed out, or that theres the Rift and the Indomitus Crusade that gives things focus?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 22:17:30


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't know what your dudes suppose to mean. But to me reading a book, and then reading another that says everything was different, and then another one that say everything was different yet, sound hell confusing.

clear cut stuff is much better. I mean what is the function of lore, if there is no core canon? why waste pages in a codex or rule book on it, when you could invent your own and it would be just as real.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Your Dudes, your guys you created to slot into the Universe. Something they supported a lot in the past and are leaning back into if the Marine 2.0 codex is anything to go on.

The point of printing stuff in the setting is to entertain, and to inspire people to recreate the events or come up with their own similar. Its not that hard to understand. Here are these events, they may have happened this way, they may have happened that way. All thats known is they happened, the rest is for you to decide. Obviously some of the stories are more clear cut, or substantially less open to interpretation as you only get one half of it.
   
 
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