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Hi y'all,

So the point is simple. I'm looking to evaluate a few of the forgotten units of the Eldar codex and see which ones have strengths that aren't immediately obvious, and which ones are plain bad.

Context:
I bring this up as I have recently started playing 40K with the Eldar, and have encountered an overwhelming amount of hate towards Eldar flyer lists. From what I understand, most meta eldar lists are either flyer spam or some variation of it. Thus, being a natural meta-avoider, I set myself to build an Aspect Warrior/Wraith list, using the most obscure units I could get my hands on. My friends, who play mostly primaris, ruined my plans of a glorious Wraith-heavy list by investing in *3* 5-man squads of hellblasters (each) for 1500 point list, so I will also be looking into getting a bit of revenge by coming back with the strangest units I can find

The first units I want to discuss are the War Walkers. At 40pts a model, toughness 6 and a 5++, I found their statline to be quite good for a weapons platform, on top of the ability to deep strike and contest objectives, which few other heavy support units do.

I would also like to hear what opinions are on the eldar support guns. Has anyone used them before to good effect? The D-Cannons seem good, if somewhat easy to avoid, especially in more open maps. The Shadow Weavers seem good in concept vs low-wound hordes, but kinda falter in the face of primaris. Finally, the V-cannon looks to struggle heavily in cluttered maps, but could have a devastating effect if fielded in larger numbers vs elite armies like primaris or marine-based chaos.

Opinions on the viability of these units and how to run them? Any other Eldar units that deserve their time in the spotlight?

War walkers are solid choices. With the new traits of re-roll hit/wound you can load them up with a BL and scatter lasers. That way they can both go for infantry with scat lazers and hit heavy targets with re-roll BL shots. Big upsite is they dont degrade so they have to be killed outright.

I use weapons platforms myself and really rate them. The Vibro cannons in particular. For me they are a hidden gem as they can dictate the pace of the came thanks to their rule preventing enemies from advancing. The dakka they put out for 40 points is not too shabby..

Night spinners are another unit that tends to get overlooked in favout of prisms/War walkers. 2D6 shots and Lack of innate AP and str7 means they don't look too attractive but for 112 pts I think they are a bargain.

I also personally like a minimalist wraithlord(sword and 1x SC if I have the points). At 85 points (95 with glaive) he has to be responded to and is a great distraction carnifex. With the new charge bonus power and trait it makes them a bit more more of a threat. Biggest downside is degradable profile.

Bone singer - If you build a wraith/mech heavy list in a brigade they can be a nice slot into an elite choice for 70pts. Keep them close to some wraiths/vehicles and they can either cast a full powered smite or heal D3 wounds. With the startegem you could potentially heal another D3 on a wariahtlord... Your apponent just wasted a lot of dakka failing to kill a wave serpent. They will not be happy if you heal him up a cheeky D3 wounds! Its not game winning or anything but I struggle to think of a better elites choice for those points. I have found him really useful running backup on a wave serpent with alitoic and spirit stones..

Humble swooping hawks.. They get 4 shots a piece and can put out some MW as well and are very cheap. Ideal for clearing T3 chaff. Not good for much else.

Also warp spiders - Their inbuilt -1 and huge move makes them great little objective campers. They just dont kill stuff good...

Obviously these are my opinions and yes the CHE is still the most competitive auto include pick Sadly.

I think there are many currently overlooked units that become quite good with the new custom doctrines and aspect traits.

1) Swooping Hawks. There are now two really really good aspect shrine traits that can be applied to swooping hawks depending on your opponent, namely the 5+ rather than 6+ mortal wounds on their grenade pack trait, and the -2 to charge rolls trait. That allows you to use your hawks as either an antielite tool, or as a charge screener, depending on your opponent. A line of swooping hawks in front of your lines HEAVILY shuts down armies like GSC and Orks by making their charges far less reliable.

2) Wraithguard with Wraithcannons using the Mobile Fighters and Wrath of the Dead trait combo. Pop those mofos out of a serpent and they reroll both hits and wounds of 1, making them supremely reliable. Similarly sword wraithblades can pull similar shenanigans by leaping out of wave serpents.

War Walkers are definitely not a forgotten unit, they're excellent just with their two shuriken cannons. I used to run them on a regular basis as cheap, durable and fast units that can tarpit enemies pretty easily. They're unfortunately not as good as other choices in the Heavy slot.

Swooping Hawks, as the_scotsman and argive pointed out have potential and from my experience using them in a tournament with 5+ mortals they generally killed one or two models with their grenade pack as a unit of 5. Good GEQ killers but are far too dependent on matchups for them to make their points back.

I think Shining Spears could see a return simply based on their Exarch's ability to take a 3++ and it can be improved with protect and fateful divergence. The points increase they got took them out of competitive contention but their 2 damage lances are an excellent counter to Primaris.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
War Walkers are definitely not a forgotten unit, they're excellent just with their two shuriken cannons. I used to run them on a regular basis as cheap, durable and fast units that can tarpit enemies pretty easily. They're unfortunately not as good as other choices in the Heavy slot.

Swooping Hawks, as the_scotsman and argive pointed out have potential and from my experience using them in a tournament with 5+ mortals they generally killed one or two models with their grenade pack as a unit of 5. Good GEQ killers but are far too dependent on matchups for them to make their points back.

I think Shining Spears could see a return simply based on their Exarch's ability to take a 3++ and it can be improved with protect and fateful divergence. The points increase they got took them out of competitive contention but their 2 damage lances are an excellent counter to Primaris.

I think an MSU Shining Spears spam list using the "fall back in any direction" trait from the custom craftworld traits is something we will almost certainly see win a major event in response to the current Primaris meta.

Agree with top posts.

I have used War Walkers and Swooping Hawks with great effect.

Sadly, Jan Zar will get played but Banshees (new or old), Warp Spiders, and Night Spinners will not.

So if you really want to go “anti-meta”, use the above units en masse and let us know how things work out!

Swooping hawks are actually amazing they just have the most terrible models in existence. With ignore cover and always count in cover cumstom traits with the 5++ aspect power...I think they will see a lot of play.They can pretty much threaten any unit on the table and will br great for tacking on wounds to your doomed target. All while being 24" away from what they are shooting. Most units that they want to shoot have t3 anywys so the 4+ to wound still makes their gun better than bolt guns.


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the_scotsman wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
War Walkers are definitely not a forgotten unit, they're excellent just with their two shuriken cannons. I used to run them on a regular basis as cheap, durable and fast units that can tarpit enemies pretty easily. They're unfortunately not as good as other choices in the Heavy slot.

Swooping Hawks, as the_scotsman and argive pointed out have potential and from my experience using them in a tournament with 5+ mortals they generally killed one or two models with their grenade pack as a unit of 5. Good GEQ killers but are far too dependent on matchups for them to make their points back.

I think Shining Spears could see a return simply based on their Exarch's ability to take a 3++ and it can be improved with protect and fateful divergence. The points increase they got took them out of competitive contention but their 2 damage lances are an excellent counter to Primaris.

I think an MSU Shining Spears spam list using the "fall back in any direction" trait from the custom craftworld traits is something we will almost certainly see win a major event in response to the current Primaris meta.

Hard to take that over a possible 2++ save. Also at no point have spears not been in the top 10 best units in the game this edition. Even still.

I think the issue with many elder units isnt that they aren't good but more that they aren't as good as the meta units like flyers and waveserpents.
It's down to bad internal balance, compare the warwalker to the sentinel in IG for instance.

Other great but under used options to look at are the fire prism and night spinner.

I wouldn't say prisms need anything, linked fire is an incredible buff.

The more I use D-cannon the more I like them.

They need a source of rerolls, and the "Salamanders" Craftworld trait has proven sufficient for me. You could also use the usual mix of Farseer and Autarch buffs.

They also need support: something to screen and assist them as they move upfield. So you can't get maximum use from them in a static army, or a MSU-style army that spreads across the board. You need a battleline that can advance up the board, occupy the center, and fend off enemy attacks. If you do that, not only will you distract the enemy from attacking the D-cannon, you will also be able to position the D-cannon to concentrate their fire on a prime target.

Vehicles and monstrous creatures without invulnerable saves are obviously prime targets, but so are heavy infantry as you wound them on twos and ignore their armor. A full battery of D-cannon can gut a unit of Primaris marines in a turn, and since they ignore LOS they can usually find something to shoot at. They're less good at taking down really tough targets like Knights due the unreliable nature of heavy weapons in 8th, but if you take several cannon then you're more likely to get a good result from at least one of them and knock of a dozen or more wounds from your target.

In summary: Support your D-cannon with infantry. Move them up the board. Concentrate your fire. One cannon is fine as filler; three or more can control a section of the battlefield.

oh aye still think the Support Weapons should be able to be taken as units of 1-3, make those psyker buffs go a bit further

Nightspinners likewise need a strat or two and a maybe some kind of slowing rule ala the Marine wotsit cannon

the_scotsman wrote:
I think an MSU Shining Spears spam list using the "fall back in any direction" trait from the custom craftworld traits is something we will almost certainly see win a major event in response to the current Primaris meta

There's a small caveat to that trait.

 Shadenuat wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I think an MSU Shining Spears spam list using the "fall back in any direction" trait from the custom craftworld traits is something we will almost certainly see win a major event in response to the current Primaris meta

There's a small caveat to that trait.

The fact that it's exclusive to anything else?

I think with the right army setup that's not particularly punishing.

I've been using a pair of expert/concealment Wraithseers in my last three games, and they really benefit from those new traits. 100pts gets you a 2+/5++ T8 W12 bully that spreads your deny net and acts as a distraction for your other high profile targets, and operates well as a forward lone wolf. They're also above average at longer charges due to their enliven power.

I typically give them wraithcannons - they hit 75% of the time even when I'm advancing them the first round.

Plus c'mon, they're one of the best models we have in our roster...

 grouchoben wrote:
I've been using a pair of expert/concealment Wraithseers in my last three games, and they really benefit from those new traits. 100pts gets you a 2+/5++ T8 W12 bully that spreads your deny net and acts as a distraction for your other high profile targets, and operates well as a forward lone wolf. They're also above average at longer charges due to their enliven power.

I typically give them wraithcannons - they hit 75% of the time even when I'm advancing them the first round.

Plus c'mon, they're one of the best models we have in our roster...

Nice! I've been looking at the wraithseer as well. They look very interesting with the new traits.

My plan is to have a brigade based around them annd casually walk forward with BLs behind advancing wraith lords/Blades/Guard and have a bone singer or two nearby to heal up whatever survives/dish out smites. Will actually make their powers useful and make wraith host specialist detachment.

Bear in mind the Wraith seer is only T7 according to the imperial armour unless this has been FAQ. I think battle scribe is wrong on this one. Its still a T7 vehicle with invuln and a HQ slot used up so worth it!

Can you Ynnari it ? If so the Lost Shroud relic might be fun

Well I have good news for you brother, The Wraithseer was updated a few months back to have the <wraith construct> keyword (so strats and such work on it) and they gave it T8 at the same time.


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Yeah, they love being Ynnari - it's just the rest of my list doesn't


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Oh yeah, finally, it's not a vehicle, so it's immune to new IF shenanigans. It does give up ITC points ever so easy, being honest with you. (headhunter, big game hunter, kingslayer).

 grouchoben wrote:
I've been using a pair of expert/concealment Wraithseers in my last three games, and they really benefit from those new traits. 100pts gets you a 2+/5++ T8 W12 bully that spreads your deny net and acts as a distraction for your other high profile targets, and operates well as a forward lone wolf. They're also above average at longer charges due to their enliven power.

I typically give them wraithcannons - they hit 75% of the time even when I'm advancing them the first round.

Plus c'mon, they're one of the best models we have in our roster...

Enliven doens't affect the wraithseer as far as i know. It doenst hate the <Wraithlord> keyword sadly.

Ynnari Wraithseer with walker of many paths + lost shroud is super fun to play

Ah good catch, it doesn't work off of <wraith construct> but <wraith lord>, my mistake!

The night spinner is one of the most competitive units out there right now. Not sure why you all feel like they're under-appreciated.

 grouchoben wrote:
Well I have good news for you brother, The Wraithseer was updated a few months back to have the <wraith construct> keyword (so strats and such work on it) and they gave it T8 at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, they love being Ynnari - it's just the rest of my list doesn't


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, finally, it's not a vehicle, so it's immune to new IF shenanigans. It does give up ITC points ever so easy, being honest with you. (headhunter, big game hunter, kingslayer).

I'm looking to play wraithseer or two on Friday.
Are you able to tell me the source of the change ? My book says T7 and the latest Imperial Armour errata/FAQ only mentions addition of wraith construct keyword to wraith seer.

I think the change to T8 was in faq 3 maybe?


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I still like the ynarri spearhead with a shrouded seer, yvraine to cast shield of ynnead and three lords getting the 5++, it's one of the few builds that I like for ynarri

 Gangrel767 wrote:
The night spinner is one of the most competitive units out there right now. Not sure why you all feel like they're under-appreciated.

I think part of that is they are very much the competent workaday unit compared to the rockstars of the Prism or Flyers, also might be something to do with the kit being one choice or the other ? (not 100% on that as I have old metal prisms)

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
The night spinner is one of the most competitive units out there right now. Not sure why you all feel like they're under-appreciated.

I think part of that is they are very much the competent workaday unit compared to the rockstars of the Prism or Flyers, also might be something to do with the kit being one choice or the other ? (not 100% on that as I have old metal prisms)

you can magnetize both loadouts.

I felt like I'd really have to compromize how I built my Prism to magnify it to be Prism vs Night Spinner.

That said, I don't like the idea of running 2 Prisms or Night Spinners - I'd rather just have one (possibly of each). So Prisms aren't that good for me this edition.

Bharring wrote:
I felt like I'd really have to compromize how I built my Prism to magnify it to be Prism vs Night Spinner.

That said, I don't like the idea of running 2 Prisms or Night Spinners - I'd rather just have one (possibly of each). So Prisms aren't that good for me this edition.

In what way did you feel it to be compromized?

I'd have to do a lot more work than my novice modelling skills have made me capable of to share the housing and seating between the very long prism shaft and the night spinners. The length of the prism shaft means that's a lot of torque. More than small magnet or three would overcome. I suppose I could have looked it up, but I figred I love the chasis so I could always just buy more.

Bharring wrote:
I'd have to do a lot more work than my novice modelling skills have made me capable of to share the housing and seating between the very long prism shaft and the night spinners. The length of the prism shaft means that's a lot of torque. More than small magnet or three would overcome. I suppose I could have looked it up, but I figred I love the chasis so I could always just buy more.

Fair enough.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but pretty sure I will be slapping on some 5mm by 1mm N52 magnets and that will hold it steadily in place (probably be overkill..)

I only have the new plastic kits sitting in my que.

Thanks!

Oh the prism. It is a beautiful kit. Probably the most beautiful of Falcon chasis vehicles. Which i saying a lot.

Unfortunately, a single Prism is quite lackluster tactically. And I've never liked taking two of them.

Bharring wrote:
Oh the prism. It is a beautiful kit. Probably the most beautiful of Falcon chasis vehicles. Which i saying a lot.

Unfortunately, a single Prism is quite lackluster tactically. And I've never liked taking two of them.

The turret really brings the spinner/prism to life IMO. Really like the spinner look.

Very sad to see people struggling to offload al the Blood of the phoenix falcons for as little as £13 on ebay… I suppose its great for terrain projects.