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Okay, so here's the background to me and the reasoning behind this list. As of posting I've played a total of four games of 40k, lost all four games but had fun doing it so far. I want to go back to basics, as in my last game I realised that I had gotten the wrong end of the stick with some of the rules and am also not making full use of things like stratagems and extra bits and bobs that are outside of the unit profiles. To that end I've signed up for some tutorial sessions run at my local GW.

There are three stages of the tutorial, which I assume are going to be matches vs other new starters with guidance from one of the store employees. The last two stages are the ones I'm interested in:


2nd stage: 500 point army, group battles using the special rules from codex

3rd stage: 750 point army, one on one battles using all of the rules for points matched games


So I have put together two lists for Guard, which in brief summary are:

500pt:

Company Commander
Primaris Psyker
x3 Infantry Squads
Commissar
Basilisk
Leman Russ w/ battle cannon and bolter sponsons

750: Above list plus Knight Commander Pask in a Leman Russ Punisher w/ bolter sponsons.

I love my list crafting, but I'm a little bit concerned that the armoured units might be a bit much, especially against new(er) players and the last thing I want is to upset someone and be 'that guy.' On the other hand, what drew me to the Guard was precisely the big, boxy tanks, and it would be a shame to pass up on the opportunity to get to know the vehicle rules better. Some input on my dilemma would be much appreciated.

EDIT: I should probably add that putting in other units is not a problem. I've got some more infantry, bullgryns and some lighter vehicles I could swap in.

40k doesn't balance well at low point levels. Take what you want. It sounds like the point of the exercise is to learn the game and not necessarily to have a fun and balanced time.

If you want balance, you really have two options...
#1 - talk to your opponents beforehand and agree on lists that should match off well against one another.
#2 - spend time researching the meta and take one of the "top tier" lists against other people playing similar "top tier" lists.

 Kriswall wrote:
40k doesn't balance well at low point levels. Take what you want. It sounds like the point of the exercise is to learn the game and not necessarily to have a fun and balanced time.

If you want balance, you really have two options...
#1 - talk to your opponents beforehand and agree on lists that should match off well against one another.
#2 - spend time researching the meta and take one of the "top tier" lists against other people playing similar "top tier" lists.

Thanks for the reply. Ordinarily I would do at least the first since I play with friends. I guess the problem with this event is that it's going to be strangers rocking up with whatever they've put together. I guess it'll be on the staff to try and pair people up appropriately. Like you said, this is for learning, I'm not necessarily in this for the win and I didn't really build my list with that in mind. I can always take a few extra units to swap in/out if I feel the need, or even just play to lose if need be.

Glad you're enjoying your armor! Remember the famous words of Lord Solar Macharius!

"That which I cannot crush with words alone, I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"

It will seem like a lot of big armor for people, but tanks, especially Imperial Guard tanks, have a bunch of exploitable weaknesses. For one, they have very few, very bad, attacks in close combat. This is important, because as soon as just ONE enemy infantry dude touches them in close combat, they effectively lose their next turn. Your shots are randomized, which can be offset by being Catachan, but there are always going to be bad days where you just can never make enough shots. Other than the Command Tanks and Pask, your tanks also aren't accurate, and if you move more than half speed you take SEVER penalties to shooting.

While some players may have a really hard time fighting your list, others won't, and that's honestly really just fine.

 Yarium wrote:
While some players may have a really hard time fighting your list, others won't, and that's honestly really just fine.

That honestly makes me feel a bit better about what I've got. It sounds like I'll just have to make the call at the time as to what's appropriate, which is fine

Steiner wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
While some players may have a really hard time fighting your list, others won't, and that's honestly really just fine.

That honestly makes me feel a bit better about what I've got. It sounds like I'll just have to make the call at the time as to what's appropriate, which is fine

I would also say that if your opponent doesn't have at least one unit/weapon config that can meaningfully hurt a high toughness target, they should probably think about adding one. I played a tank heavy IG list and lost quite often. To a previous point, a single model gets into combat and your tank loses the next turn or two.

Steiner wrote:

500pt:
Company Commander
Primaris Psyker
x3 Infantry Squads
Commissar
Basilisk
Leman Russ w/ battle cannon and bolter sponsons

750: Above list plus Knight Commander Pask in a Leman Russ Punisher w/ bolter sponsons.

That doesn't look particularly powerful to me.

That works for me. I wonder if I was just getting paranoid. I know relatively little about the other armies, but thinking about it, there must be plenty of units that can deal with armour.

Knight Commander Pask in a Punisher at 750? That's not a game I'd bother with.

 Elbows wrote:
Knight Commander Pask in a Punisher at 750? That's not a game I'd bother with.

Would changing him out for a bog standard tank commander improve the situation? Or would even that be too much?

That's entirely up to the people you're playing with. If they're bringing the heat, then it wouldn't matter. The internet isn't the place to really ask about this, unless you're showing up blind to a "friendly" gaming event to play against strangers.

The people you're playing with are going to determine what is worth taking and what isn't. At the 500-750 point level it sounds very much like intro gaming for newer players. If that's the case you'll probably ruin someone's day if they show up with a Start Collecting box, etc.

Steiner wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Knight Commander Pask in a Punisher at 750? That's not a game I'd bother with.

Would changing him out for a bog standard tank commander improve the situation? Or would even that be too much?

I think this (or especially Pask in a Punisher) might be a bit of overkill in a 750 pt tutorial game. As you've said, you're not out for the win.
Rather than looking to roll a gak load of dice with a lot of bonuses I'd be looking for strats/gear/etc that I'm not less familiar with & building for that. Afterall, I already know how to roll & re-roll lots of dice....

I think this (or especially Pask in a Punisher) might be a bit of overkill in a 750 pt tutorial game. As you've said, you're not out for the win.
Rather than looking to roll a gak load of dice with a lot of bonuses I'd be looking for strats/gear/etc that I'm not less familiar with & building for that. Afterall, I already know how to roll & re-roll lots of dice....

At the 500-750 point level it sounds very much like intro gaming for newer players. If that's the case you'll probably ruin someone's day if they show up with a Start Collecting box, etc.

Point taken. I'm going to this to learn, so I'll dial down on the 750 list, put some units in there that I'm not so familiar with for the experience. Thanks for the input

Maybe drop Pask and bring the Bullgryns? They're worth learning how to use as they can be effective and don't really intimidate newer players the same way a tank would.

Guard right now are in a nice place where in a casual environment you have a lot of options on how you want to play.

You can play defensive or very aggressive in your face styles depending on what list you build, so try out a few various options and see what appeals to you

Funny you should say that, I just finished rewriting the list two include two units of bullgryns. Great minds think alike!

It's hard to tell you what is "too much" without having much of an idea about what other people are running. Pask in a Punisher is a lot of firepower in a low point game, but it is short range and vulnerable to things that could wrap him up. If you're that worried about it, talk to the organizer about it. Although bringing the Bullgryns might be beneficial anyway for other reasons, namely learning the assault rules for both you and your opponent (Guard isn't really known for having a want to be in melee).

If you want to learn the rules it doesn’t hurt just to take a nice spread of units which for the most part is what you have but I have to agree Pask is filth at lower points.

Bullgryns are a good choice I hate the guard infantry models but the abhumans are very cool, ratlings especially are really characterful models that are also dirt cheap and quite good.

The key problem with points value is it works inversely. The lower points you set your games, the greater points efficiency becomes.

An imperial Guard is the most efficient army in the game soo...GG.

Higher points games get more complex as you basically stack rules to win. Not to mention missions for the game are seriously weird. In the sense their not really good for learning the game vary greatly based on source.

My advise would to try and find a hobby group and create lists that can "do something every phase." an not try to be super comp, to get a basic understanding of units and the rule flows. Then move onto other missions (this defines what is actually good in your army) followed by Terrain (also a massive effect of game experence.)

I had a training game where a new necron player was playing against a new AM player who was pretty much fielding what you were - guard squads with three flavours of heavy weapons, primaris psyker, two manticores, are LRBT and pask. With just a doomsday ark and some destroyers, he pretty much ruined the IG player.

So I think this list is surprisingly fair. IG tanks hitting of 4+ miss more often than you'd think, and pask alone isn't going to cut it. It also teaches the new player that having something to blow up tanks is important to the game, and should his or her collection be missing such tools, you can advise them on how to fix that problem.

It might depend on what your opponent has in their list, unfortunately. I do think 2 fully loaded LR tanks plus a demolisher might present a demoralizing experience for many new players, though you might have an opponent with a tool that's very good at dealing with them like an Admech player who started with a start collecting box (which would give him a laser dunecrawler).

You may want to have an alternate swap for pask ready to go, maybe the Bullgryns and more infantry, just to see if your opponent is something like a competently built list with anti-tank weaponry, or a brand newbie running the space marines they got in the starter box.

Regardless I think you'll be fine at the 1k level adding in bullgryns+more infantry to the list with Pask and having a very fun, balanced list that does a bit of everything.

Well, the event happened so I thought I'd give you guys a bit of a summary, short of a full battle report. We only did the 500pt match-up so going in with Pask didn't end up being important. (I did in fact replace him with bullgryns.)

2v2: IG(me) + Tyranids vs Marines + CSM. A single objective to contest in the centre of the map.

Essentially it became a 1v1 split down the table; the Nids player locked up the space marines while me and the CSM player contested the objective. I tried to divide the fire from my vehicles on both players just to be fair, and my infantry essentially ended up overwhelming the Khorne beserkers and we won by taking the objective and holding it when the clock ran down.

I'm kind of glad I didn't have to do the 750pt game. Coming out of that, I figure I need to focus on learning how to get more out of my squaddies than how to do big guns, so I think a completely different 750 list will surface for next time. Thanks for the input though; leaving Pask was a good idea in the end.