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Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

Local tournament coming up, two days, five rounds, ITC, lunch on Saturday. Prizes advertised, noting specific nor what for. Requires a very strict painting standard that is 40% of your final score. The rest is ITC missions and scoring. West Coast Pairings is being used for registration. There is a website, it's a very simple, one page Word Press site you can whip up in about 10 minutes, with links to ITC and very little info. There is a Facebook page.

Overall cost: US$55.

They are capping it at 64 players, and they have over 40 preregistered.

I asked what I thought was a very simple question: Why so much for an entry fee? Lunch is pizza, but we have to buy our drinks from the game store. Figure $10/person for lunch, so that leaves $45. If the TO prints out a mission packet, figure another $5/person (I doubt it would be that high, but...). That leaves $40 x 64 players = $2,560. Even if they only get the 40 pre-registered players, that's $1,600. Already talked to the store owner, and they are not charging for the use of the space, and as a matter of fact, are offering a 10% discount on all GW stuff for participants.

Is this TO about to walk away with over $1000 for running a tournament?

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Tamwulf wrote:
Local tournament coming up, two days, five rounds, ITC, lunch on Saturday. Prizes advertised, noting specific nor what for. Requires a very strict painting standard that is 40% of your final score. The rest is ITC missions and scoring. West Coast Pairings is being used for registration. There is a website, it's a very simple, one page Word Press site you can whip up in about 10 minutes, with links to ITC and very little info. There is a Facebook page.

Overall cost: US$55.

They are capping it at 64 players, and they have over 40 preregistered.

I asked what I thought was a very simple question: Why so much for an entry fee? Lunch is pizza, but we have to buy our drinks from the game store. Figure $10/person for lunch, so that leaves $45. If the TO prints out a mission packet, figure another $5/person (I doubt it would be that high, but...). That leaves $40 x 64 players = $2,560. Even if they only get the 40 pre-registered players, that's $1,600. Already talked to the store owner, and they are not charging for the use of the space, and as a matter of fact, are offering a 10% discount on all GW stuff for participants.

Is this TO about to walk away with over $1000 for running a tournament?

Cost to produce terrain? Signage / posters? Prizes for participants? T-shirts, social media, other stuff? Cash going into reserve to pay for next year's event?

64 people is a large tournament, I'm sure there needs to be judges. Maybe he has to pay them something to guarantee they will be there.

How is the tournament organized? There has to be a legal entity otherwise the person running the tournament has a tax liability. If it's a non-profit, that's a lot more expensive to set up than an LLC. If it's an LLC, revenue from the event passes through to the organizer and he has to pay income taxes on the money.

Beyond that, it takes time and effort to organize an event. What's wrong with keeping some of the money? It probably amounts to less than he would have earned spending the same time at a minimum wage job.

   
Made in gb
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




United Kingdom

Venue cost? 90% of our entry price is the venue (which includes food).
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

Creating terrain can be expensive. But you're also neglecting a large expense, which is prize support. Support staff might be doing the work on a volunteer basis or they might be being paid, which would further deduct from the pool.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





He may be. I know of a couple TO's that make a few thousand a year doing it.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

I'm being savaged on the Facebook page for the event for asking where my $55 is going. And the TO is not answering any of my e-mails. The price doesn't bother me all that much, especially if the quality of the tournament is there, and frankly, I don't think it's there. It sounds all kinds of sketchy and that the TO is about to walk away with a $1000 weekend for little to no effort.

So don't go? Don't buy a ticket? etc. etc. All the other players that are attending are just enabling this behavior. What happens next month? "Hey! Another tournament! $55!"

How about a different question: What is a reasonable price for a two day, five round Warhammer 40K tournament? What do you expect? What do you want? What kind of support? How many judges/players do you think should be there? Do you expect a player packet? Printed out missions? How about prize support? If there is any money left over, what do you expect to happen to it?

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Philadelphia

He has 32 tables of terrain and an event hall he can use for free? Bruv what is this mecca and how do we attend? Your tournament organizer has been gifted a great opportunity.

I've helped run and judge at two GTs with around 50+ players 40k and 50+ players Fantasy before. 80-90% of the cost is renting the space. The one event I rented out a 9000sq ft ballroom at a Westin and the other was 7000sq ft in a Marriott. We specifically had to pay a high per diem/ additional cost to stay longer hours. Friday Night, Saturday, Sunday and they wanted an absurd hourly cost to stay past 6-7pm when we opened the hall at 9:00 am. We then had to rent two uHaul box trucks and load up tables from different games stores + what Gamesworkshop provided for us from their GT tournament circuit at one of the events. Followed by returning the trucks / swiping a lot of personal credit cards and recording who paid for what. This involved a lot of unpaid lifting and help from people who showed up on Friday for casual gaming and setup to get games in early. The events also had a beverage counter where you can buy drinks and grab water bottles.

No one was paid anything but we gave out free event tickets to give to to a friend if you helped setup and judge/organize and meal vouchers. They offered a hotel discount which we had to also had a minimum # of rooms to rent out with the promo code given for the event.

We ended negative at $500 at one event with ticket prices being $55 - the other event with a ticket price of $70 we were negative $1300 without anyone being paid. We had paid the negative difference through a friendly local game store giving out 20-30% off GW product at the event and hosting a stand at the event (similar to what Warstore previously did). prize support involved vouchers to use at that stand/store. We also had a few paid tables were people can sell their product (mdf company, an ebay bits store guy, and so on)

I did not handle the taxes at all.

edit: I will happily pay $100 for a two day 40k tournament with 5 games if its at a nice venue. $20/game is an alright price. 40% painting score? Perfect.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/06 15:57:31


   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Check out a fairly recent episode of Chapter Tactics where they talk about the economics of running 40k tournaments in great detail. In short though, most TOs aren't making money off of this.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Tamwulf wrote:

How about a different question: What is a reasonable price for a two day, five round Warhammer 40K tournament? What do you expect? What do you want? What kind of support? How many judges/players do you think should be there? Do you expect a player packet? Printed out missions? How about prize support? If there is any money left over, what do you expect to happen to it?


For a big event hall with 30+ tables, maybe 5-10 judges, staff, food, terrain, and a venue with proper parking and facilities.. probably 55$.
Left over money is profit. these events and people arent a charity.

edit: i dont run these things but seems according to stevefamine, profits apparently are non-existent

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 16:23:16


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Executing Exarch





London, UK

Considering I paid £40 for an 80 person, 5 game, 2 day fun n fluff tournament without batting an eyelid, I don't mind paying for a tournament because I know the guys who run it are great people. The price did go up from last year but I didn't really mind as I knew it would be a fun event.

The prize support, player pack, terrain and organisation are all great elements and the venue is great too.

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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





As others have said, price sounds normal, rent will be a lot of it.

Also the notion that organising a tournament is 'free money' is... well completely devoid of logic.
Organising a tournament takes work and if the TO has some money left over after it that's fine by me so long as the event was organised and run well.
And if it isn't then people arn't going to show up next time.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






I used to run netrunner tournaments for a local store here. The store received 5.00 per person, usually about 10 people, I basically ran it just to ensure that the store continued to order prize support kits for our small group. It wasn't bad when it was a situation where I could play as well, but in the cases where there would have been a bye, I sat out. Which means I sat there for 6 hours not doing anything and watching other people play for no money. It sucked. So if this guy is gonna run two days of tournaments, he needs to get something out of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 16:41:02


 
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre






Seems like the OP has no idea how much work it is to set up and run a tournament, nor how many miscellaneous expenses crop up. After your helpers and judges get their (paltry compared to the work they did) share, I'd be amazed if the organizer walked away with 100 bucks. They might even run a deficit, but small enough that the organizer will happily absorb, because usually these things are run by people who have good jobs and can afford to lose a bit of money running a tournament (much like a lot of gaming stores, actually).

People who organize gatherings professionally (i.e. caterers, wedding planners) make FAR more money for shorter, smaller events.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hi; I run one of the largest TT gaming cons in the world. I started with 32 people on picnic tables at a venue that cost $150 to rent. I charged $20 a person and lost nearly $1,000 when all was said and done, despite having tables / terrain beforehand. We now generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in gross revenue, barely break even, and give whatever we have left to charity.

If you're concerned about where the money's going, chances are they aren't making very much (some do, some don't). But chances are it's not an unreasonable cost.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 luke1705 wrote:
Creating terrain can be expensive. But you're also neglecting a large expense, which is prize support. Support staff might be doing the work on a volunteer basis or they might be being paid, which would further deduct from the pool.


Yep. I ended up paying about 300-400 euro's for material for LOTR terrain I have been building plus 100e for 2 sets of osgiliath ruins. And I'm not running that big tournament! Prolly you could get it cheaper depending on quality of terrain and amount but terrain ends up costing up quite a lot. Now I'm not charging it from players but I'm not also making terrain for 32 tables! More like ~3-4 tables worth with other half from store. If I was trying to make that much terrain...yeah I would be adding up something to fees to cover my expenses. I might increase fees in future as well but first I want to try to see how it is and boost the still not that huge LOTR tournament scene.

(oh and on bigger tournaments either you have to do this every year for the event OR you have storage issues).

And of course generally organizers getting some profit for themselves isn't unreasonable either. They are in no obligation to do it. It's lots of work. They might not even get to play either(in smaller tournaments organizer can have time to play. In bigger organizing is day's work. For me I'm playing in case of odd number of players come. No other voluntary spare player to play only in case of non-even player number).

And it's a lot of work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 19:28:35


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/16/tneva82-goblins-humans-and-elves/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
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Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Philadelphia

MVBrandt wrote:
Hi; I run one of the largest TT gaming cons in the world. I started with 32 people on picnic tables at a venue that cost $150 to rent. I charged $20 a person and lost nearly $1,000 when all was said and done, despite having tables / terrain beforehand. We now generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in gross revenue, barely break even, and give whatever we have left to charity.

If you're concerned about where the money's going, chances are they aren't making very much (some do, some don't). But chances are it's not an unreasonable cost.


this man is a legend

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

You're being charged that much (and honestly its not that much) to play a VERY expensive luxury game that requires expensive boards for every pair of players.

EACH board costs around 200-300$ (Terrain, physical table and game mat) and that doesn't include time to build or store said terrain.

Now, if each player pays 55$ and each table supports 2 players that costs 200-300$... That doesn't include anything else that is required to make a GT happen.

Overtime it gets cheaper but it can be quite costly the first few times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/07 01:02:42


Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in sg
Been Around the Block






This is a hobby and an expensive one at that. People are putting in time/effort to organize events. If the prices are not agreeable to you there is no need to kick up a fuss and have a go at the organizers.

Just ask yourself if $55 is worth a weekend of fun for you. For me, a day out watching a movie at a cinema and having dinner would easily hit $50, thus I derive that $55 for 2 days of fun gaming with people is well worth it. If you feel the $55 doesn't justify the fun you gain out of it just take a pass. Why does it bother you whether the organizers make a profit out of this?(which they should anyways for organizing)

P.S I sincerely hope the organizers do earn a little out of it and definitely hope they don't run a deficit. They are contributing their time and effort to keep the hobby alive and I respect that.
   
Made in gb
Painting Within the Lines




Sheep Loveland

On the flip side, paying a one off $55 fee for a two day tournament is peanuts really.

What else for two days gets you everything you listed included for $55? I'm guessing: not a lot. We're in a niche, luxury hobby, and you'd be surprised how much effort it takes to run one.

Minatours 2,000pts 70% painted 
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 Kirasu wrote:
You're being charged that much (and honestly its not that much) to play a VERY expensive luxury game that requires expensive boards for every pair of players.

EACH board costs around 200-300$ (Terrain, physical table and game mat) and that doesn't include time to build or store said terrain.

Now, if each player pays 55$ and each table supports 2 players that costs 200-300$... That doesn't include anything else that is required to make a GT happen.

Overtime it gets cheaper but it can be quite costly the first few times.


Yep. You can build a serviceable 4x8ft table for about 100 bucks and volunteer labor. 64 players equals 32 tables equals 3200 bucks. Note that 4x6 tables really aren't any cheaper because plywood is generally sold in 4x8 sheets and you need the same number of legs. You can butt tables together so 3 tables can run 4 games, so in theory it could be 2400 bucks if you've got the right space to lay it out like that. You could try renting tables or buying those cheap 3 ft wide plastic tables for less, but good luck with that. If you're super duper lucky the place you're running has tables the right size.

Now you need game mats for those tables. Let's assume you go cheap as possible getting simple green fabric for a few bucks a square yard. Each 4x6 play area is 24 square feet, or almost 3 square yards - let's call it 10 bucks a table, so add another 240-320 bucks for mats.

Now you need terrain. Terrain is going to be the actually expensive part of the equation. I'm not even gonna try to estimate a per table cost. At this point if I was running a tournament I'd be buying a laser cutter to cut MDF and a 3D printer or three to cut down on expenses.

And you have to store all this stuff between tournaments - great if you have an empty garage, otherwise you're renting a storage shed and a van to get stuff to and from the venue.

It's the stuff of nightmares and huge props to anyone who goes out and does it.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






You can save a few quid by ditching the mats and just painting the boards.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vyrullax wrote:
This is a hobby and an expensive one at that. People are putting in time/effort to organize events. If the prices are not agreeable to you there is no need to kick up a fuss and have a go at the organizers.


This is the only thing that matters, IMO. Whether the TO makes money or not, the only real question for each person who wants to attend is whether the entry fee is worth it for you. It shouldn't matter whether the TO makes money from it. If you speak to any experienced TO they'll likely all say the same thing: running wargaming tournaments is not a way to get rich and most make no profit at all. But even if they do, why is that a problem? You're completely free not to support a tournament you think is overpriced but for me the value I place on a gaming event is about the experience I think I'll have there, not about how much money I suspect the TO is making.

If it was $100 I wouldn't attend as that's too much for a 2-day tournament for me. If the TO could sell all 64 places at $100 I wouldn't have a problem with the TO either provided any promises they made about the event were kept.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

It’s reasonable to ask what’s happening with your money. I think it’s been answered now.

I'd be perfectly happy if the people who put in weeks of work to organise these events got some money for doing it. Most don't.
   
Made in gb
Frightnening Fiend of Slaanesh



Portsmouth, UK

Two days for about £40? That's £20 per day. That's incredibly reasonable and I'd have no problem with that, and wouldn't expect food to be included.
But I've helped organise play days for children in various venues so know the cost of that, as well as helped out with organisation of a small festival. Even if the venue is provided for free like you said, are everyone working at it volunteers? Say if you paid someone $10 an hour, that would mean your entry fee for the two days (depending how long each day is) wouldn't cover one member of staff for one day. If they're volunteers... they're essentially paying more to be there in time and effort than you are in cash.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






$55 is cheap for a 2 day event.

Prize support however should be generous.

Anyone claiming a TO is getting rich off of running them hasnt a clue.

A store owner also has the right to make some money off of an event they run.. they pay rent.

 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Talked with the guy running the gaming club I'm part of about tournament costs a while ago since he is also a TO organizer and is planning a 120+ event next summer.

Since we live in Sweden and clubs can get lots of their costs subsidized by the city, like free or lower rent and even money if young people attend, and can usually even rent parts of a school during a weekend for relative cheap it isnt expensive to set up a tournament. The clubs will have the terrain and maybe even a venue for smaller events. Like we had a one day 48 man event at our club 2 months ago that only cost about ~10 euro. When I attended 120+ man events that ran friday to sundat years ago it also only cost about 10 euros.

But this also made it into a bit of a problem. Everone got used to so low entry fees but too low entry fees also make it harder for a TO to make a great event. Sure you could rent a few crampesdclassrooms at a school that have 0 ventilation since they turn it off during the weekends to save money and it will be very cheap. But it wont make for that great of an experience and the TO will mostly not feel motivated to get some good terrain either if they dont have much of a budget. Higher entry fees on the other hand gets you a better venue with everyone in the same hall and probably more and better terrain on the tables.

And it is kind of stupid when you think about it. People are playing with armies for 1k+ and probably spent a few hundred in travel and living expenses. Their food expenses alone for the weekend is probably a few times what the tournament fee is. Paying up to ~50 euro shouldnt be a problem and you will probably get it back in the form of a better experience. So heard that some TOs are forming together to try to make everyone have a higher fee for the bigger events to ensure a better experience for everyone, players and organizers alike.

They arent doing it for the money after all since any part time job would pay much more per hour spent than organizing tournaments. But an increase of 20% of total cost for an event can give the organizer twice the budget to make it great. Also removes a lot of burdens for the TO and increases the chance of it becoming a regular event if they stop loosing money each time.

We used to have a 100+ 40k event a 100+ Wfb event and 40+warmachine event at the same time running during a weekend in my city of 500k every year. But this year it was only a few 30 man events running since no one wanted to take on such a huge project for free or a loss like it used to.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/07 14:24:43


 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

As others have said, there’s a lot of work and prep that goes into that one weekend...assuming that your “$1000 profit” number is accurate, think of it as $1000 for a month than a single weekend (much like a band performing at a concert). I’m going to take a slightly different tack though and say that for running a quality GT an organizer DESERVES at least $1000. This isn’t DM’ing a local D&D group, this is managing a 40+ person entertainment event which if you’ve ever gotten married, hired a DJ, or catered a party should already know is a service that people can and do make a living off of. Tabletop gaming should be no different. And if anything in competitive 40k should be profitable, it’s running the actual events themselves that make it a thing.
It’s far from profitable enough to make a career out of, but if TO’ing can be a livelihood-supporting side job then I’m all for it. Cause that means more tournaments and better quality ones.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Considering how much effort and time goes into organizing a tournament, getting prize support, sourcing tables, terrain, mission packs, the labour involved, having to rent the space, rent transportation and/or pay the gas for the transportation of the tables and terrain...

A lot of tournament also has list checks, usually gives out a few freebies (shirts, drinks, etc.) to the volunteer judges who come in to help, and these all take time and money too.

I would be surprised if he makes anything at all running it, and I'm not surprised people are giving you a drubbing on Facebook for trying to tear down a guy who is putting in the effort to run a two day event.

He probably isn't bothering to respond to you because then you would just turn around "lol look at this sob story look how desperate he is for 55 bucks!!1!!"

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering how much effort and time goes into organizing a tournament, getting prize support, sourcing tables, terrain, mission packs, the labour involved, having to rent the space, rent transportation and/or pay the gas for the transportation of the tables and terrain...

A lot of tournament also has list checks, usually gives out a few freebies (shirts, drinks, etc.) to the volunteer judges who come in to help, and these all take time and money too.

I would be surprised if he makes anything at all running it, and I'm not surprised people are giving you a drubbing on Facebook for trying to tear down a guy who is putting in the effort to run a two day event.

He probably isn't bothering to respond to you because then you would just turn around "lol look at this sob story look how desperate he is for 55 bucks!!1!!"


To be fair a lot of people are ignorant about a lot of things. it wont change until they start asking questions. and i hope he understands and appreciates the work that goes into the things he enjoys.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





True that. I used to think 30-40e tournament entry prices as very expensive myself some years ago. But when I started digging on actual practicalities(and never mind hands on experience right now...debut tournament tomorrow!) I have come to appreciation that even 30e is cheap and certainly isn't huge source of profit for organizing!

But above was good point that when there's cheap tournaments around(generally with help from cities etc and people paying things out of their pocket rather than asking from players to pay via tournament fee) does make it hard for others who don't have as much external support to raise up prices. If others charge 10e and you would need to charge 30e to even break even it can get tricky...

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/16/tneva82-goblins-humans-and-elves/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
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