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Dear dakka painting pros and vetereans, I need some help painting custodes shoulderpads. I wanted to paint a part of the shoulderpad red and I can't seem to get a smooth decent red colour on those shoulderpads.

First off, some pictures (pictures suck, sry):

Disclaimer: this is the first miniature I've painted in 10+ years, I've started with 40k again because I've fallen in love with the custodes models. This one is a custodian guard with sentinel blade and storm shield. It took me about two weeks to get this guy to this stage....I'm really slow, but I wanted to take my time. Let me know what you think.



better shot of the shield (looks better in person):


and a better shot of the power sword, I was going for the eavy metal style sword from the box art:


Now here are the pictures of the 2 different shoulder pads I tried to paint and failed:





What I tried to do with them was this basically: I put on 2 thin layers of mephiston red, put an oval spot of mephiston red mixed with evil suns scarlet on the high spot of the pad. Then I shaded the edges of the pad with nuln oil. Afterwards I made a glaze with mephiston red to try to blend everything together. As a final step I put one watered down layer of carborough crimson shade over it.
I worked with thin layers and took my time, I let the paint dry everytime before I applied my next layer and I never managed to get a smooth finish or a smooth surface. It always seemed somewhat "bumpy" if that makes sense. This only got worse the more layers I applied. The shoulderpad was smooth however when I basecoated it (chaos black), so the general shape of the piece is fine.

Really need some help here, thanks.

Edit: also the red part of the shoulder pad was extremely easy to rub off. I know if you rub a model with greasy fingers long enough, the acrylic paint will rub off, but this was super easy. Also I fell like there was too much paint on that part even though I worked with very diluted paints and I applied about 10 layers of glaze.

Red, as well as other "thin" colours like white and yellow and pale beige, naturally become thick and chalkier much more readily than say, black or blue, because the pigment saturation needs to be much higher in order to get coverage.

I would say if the paint is rubbing off easily though, you may just have a bad paint batch.

 Deadshot wrote:
Red, as well as other "thin" colours like white and yellow and pale beige, naturally become thick and chalkier much more readily than say, black or blue, because the pigment saturation needs to be much higher in order to get coverage.

I would say if the paint is rubbing off easily though, you may just have a bad paint batch.

Thanks for the explanation, I did not know that fact about red colours. So what is the best way to proceed now?

I think the top pic of the shoulder pad looks almost spot on. Id keep doing what you doing and refine your recipe.

.

 Argive wrote:
I think the top pic of the shoulder pad looks almost spot on. Id keep doing what you doing and refine your recipe.

.

Thanks, any advice? Because I've tried a couple of things, but I sitll always have problems with the consistency of the paint. Like deadshot explained in his reply, it gets rather think and chalky rather fast and does not create the smooth surface I am looking for. Even just the 2-3 thin layers of mephiston red I always put down as the basis does not create a smooth surface even though I really try to work in even brush strokes and not let the paint pool anywhere.

The bright red contrast paint looks gorgeous over red, just don’t goop it on.

if you can get your hands on some GW Deneb Stone - it's a great base for bright colours & covers great.
Else try Mephiston Red then red over that or for a brighter red, start with Morghast Bone.
Also highlight right up to orange or even yellow then apply a glaze of red ink over the top.

Your method sounds good to me, and the rest of the model looks fantastic.

I'm neither a pro nor a veteran, but my thoughts are:

Is it the mephiston red that's causing the problems? Does it behave the same elsewhere? (did you use it on the plume on the helmet, which looks like the paint applied smoothly?) Is it just when applying the mephiston red that it becomes uneven, or is it at a different point?
If it is the mephiston red, you might want to get a different pot of it (as I've seen people say it's usually a good red), or maybe use a different paint as your base layer (either another shade of red from GW or from another paint manufacturer).

Does your mephiston red glaze apply smoothly? If it does, but the paint for the base layers doesn't, you could try applying multiple layers of the glaze instead of a couple of layers of just the paint without medium, and see if that makes a difference.

If it's not the paint but it's the layers that make it bumpy, have you considered trying wet blending? It can be a bit awkward, but there are tutorials on youtube on how to do it - it might help get the darker and lighter areas to behave better with each other with fewer layers? Or maybe trying a layer of varnish at the point before it goes bumpy, or before you apply the shade to help it be a smooth surface?

The other thought I had is whether your priming layer cured oddly, and is having a knock on effect when you paint over it; and the description you gave of the paint rubbing off makes me wonder if there was something on the plastic that means it doesn't adhere properly (it seems most people don't feel that plastic needs cleaning before painting, but it's something that popped into my mind).

Idk how helpful any of this might be, and other users feel free to correct my thoughts if any of them aren't sound.

Tiberias wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think the top pic of the shoulder pad looks almost spot on. Id keep doing what you doing and refine your recipe.

.

Thanks, any advice? Because I've tried a couple of things, but I sitll always have problems with the consistency of the paint. Like deadshot explained in his reply, it gets rather think and chalky rather fast and does not create the smooth surface I am looking for. Even just the 2-3 thin layers of mephiston red I always put down as the basis does not create a smooth surface even though I really try to work in even brush strokes and not let the paint pool anywhere.

I'm afraid I cant think of any quick and dirty to get the level of finish you want..

The pain in the ass answer is: paint with glazes and be very patient and prepared it will take countless layers..

If I was tackling this and did not care abut time, I would probably start with black base. Then Bloodletter Red glaze the whole surface, then thin layer of methiston, leaving a gap towards the edges (cover 90% of the area), it will come out dark, then another layer of blood letter all over then a thin layer of khorne red/mephiston, then another glaze, then a layer of * I cant remember the GW name but a lighter red than khrone, mephiston whatever the next shade up is* I think it might be wild rider or evil suns scarlet?* then glaze but this time not all the way to the edge and so on... Rinse repeat with ultra thin glaze layers bringing the colours up slightly towards the middle and reducing the surface area covered.

Other than that:
Are you using wet pallet?
What mediums are you using for thinning? Maybe try lahmian medium/retarder rations and mixed with water?
Maybe get some normal marine pads to experiment on? Its a bigger surface area but you might be able to refine some recipe and play around with washes/glazes without worrying about ruining your custodies pads ?


At this stage I'm pretty sure the same paints from different batches can have different properties.
I have 2 pots of Macragge Blue and one pot is noticeably lighter. So it could be the red you have is slightly off so might need to play around with mixing/watering down. Using a wet pallet helps with keeping consistency bit longer so as mentioned I hope you use one of those,

Fajita Fan wrote:The bright red contrast paint looks gorgeous over red, just don’t goop it on.

never used contrast paints, can you glaze with them aswell?

bubber wrote:if you can get your hands on some GW Deneb Stone - it's a great base for bright colours & covers great.
Else try Mephiston Red then red over that or for a brighter red, start with Morghast Bone.
Also highlight right up to orange or even yellow then apply a glaze of red ink over the top.

Will try that, thanks.

Ashaar wrote:Your method sounds good to me, and the rest of the model looks fantastic.

I'm neither a pro nor a veteran, but my thoughts are:

Is it the mephiston red that's causing the problems? Does it behave the same elsewhere? (did you use it on the plume on the helmet, which looks like the paint applied smoothly?) Is it just when applying the mephiston red that it becomes uneven, or is it at a different point?
If it is the mephiston red, you might want to get a different pot of it (as I've seen people say it's usually a good red), or maybe use a different paint as your base layer (either another shade of red from GW or from another paint manufacturer).

Does your mephiston red glaze apply smoothly? If it does, but the paint for the base layers doesn't, you could try applying multiple layers of the glaze instead of a couple of layers of just the paint without medium, and see if that makes a difference.

If it's not the paint but it's the layers that make it bumpy, have you considered trying wet blending? It can be a bit awkward, but there are tutorials on youtube on how to do it - it might help get the darker and lighter areas to behave better with each other with fewer layers? Or maybe trying a layer of varnish at the point before it goes bumpy, or before you apply the shade to help it be a smooth surface?

The other thought I had is whether your priming layer cured oddly, and is having a knock on effect when you paint over it; and the description you gave of the paint rubbing off makes me wonder if there was something on the plastic that means it doesn't adhere properly (it seems most people don't feel that plastic needs cleaning before painting, but it's something that popped into my mind).

Idk how helpful any of this might be, and other users feel free to correct my thoughts if any of them aren't sound.

I will try wet blending, can't hurt....never really got the hang of it though before. Also the surface became bumpy whenever I applied any of the reds. Didn't matter if it was just a layer of mephiston red or a couple of layers glaze of mephiston red. But the surface was smooth before that.

Also I was not precise when I said the paint rubbed off easily. Only the reds rubbed off easily, the basecoat of black and the parts with retributor armor and reikland fleshshade did not rub off. Also the parts that came off easliy were on the middle, or the high spots of the shoulderpads, the edges did not come off easily.

Argive wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think the top pic of the shoulder pad looks almost spot on. Id keep doing what you doing and refine your recipe.

.

Thanks, any advice? Because I've tried a couple of things, but I sitll always have problems with the consistency of the paint. Like deadshot explained in his reply, it gets rather think and chalky rather fast and does not create the smooth surface I am looking for. Even just the 2-3 thin layers of mephiston red I always put down as the basis does not create a smooth surface even though I really try to work in even brush strokes and not let the paint pool anywhere.

I'm afraid I cant think of any quick and dirty to get the level of finish you want..

The pain in the ass answer is: paint with glazes and be very patient and prepared it will take countless layers..

If I was tackling this and did not care abut time, I would probably start with black base. Then Bloodletter Red glaze the whole surface, then thin layer of methiston, leaving a gap towards the edges (cover 90% of the area), it will come out dark, then another layer of blood letter all over then a thin layer of khorne red/mephiston, then another glaze, then a layer of * I cant remember the GW name but a lighter red than khrone, mephiston whatever the next shade up is* I think it might be wild rider or evil suns scarlet?* then glaze but this time not all the way to the edge and so on... Rinse repeat with ultra thin glaze layers bringing the colours up slightly towards the middle and reducing the surface area covered.

Other than that:
Are you using wet pallet?
What mediums are you using for thinning? Maybe try lahmian medium/retarder rations and mixed with water?
Maybe get some normal marine pads to experiment on? Its a bigger surface area but you might be able to refine some recipe and play around with washes/glazes without worrying about ruining your custodies pads ?


At this stage I'm pretty sure the same paints from different batches can have different properties.
I have 2 pots of Macragge Blue and one pot is noticeably lighter. So it could be the red you have is slightly off so might need to play around with mixing/watering down. Using a wet pallet helps with keeping consistency bit longer so as mentioned I hope you use one of those,

I am using a wet pallet and I made my glaze with lhamian medium and I also tried with some water mixed in additionaly. That may sound unusual, but since I got into the hobby because of custodes, I don't have any other models as of now. So I don't even own any marine pads... But I will find some other surface to try on.

Anyway thanks for all the advice, I will have to try some stuff and refine the recipe.

One last thing though, what is the best way to strip the paint on the red parts of the shoulderpads in your opinion? I don't want to keep working with them as they are because it would be a waste of time at this stage, I'd never get a smooth finish with how they are now unless I start over. Even though I said the paint rubs off easily, there are still always some flaky bits that dont come off this way, so I can't just rub the paint away to get an even surface to start over again.

Tiberias wrote:

Fajita Fan wrote:The bright red contrast paint looks gorgeous over red, just don’t goop it on.

never used contrast paints, can you glaze with them aswell?

bubber wrote:if you can get your hands on some GW Deneb Stone - it's a great base for bright colours & covers great.
Else try Mephiston Red then red over that or for a brighter red, start with Morghast Bone.
Also highlight right up to orange or even yellow then apply a glaze of red ink over the top.

Will try that, thanks.

Ashaar wrote:Your method sounds good to me, and the rest of the model looks fantastic.

I'm neither a pro nor a veteran, but my thoughts are:

Is it the mephiston red that's causing the problems? Does it behave the same elsewhere? (did you use it on the plume on the helmet, which looks like the paint applied smoothly?) Is it just when applying the mephiston red that it becomes uneven, or is it at a different point?
If it is the mephiston red, you might want to get a different pot of it (as I've seen people say it's usually a good red), or maybe use a different paint as your base layer (either another shade of red from GW or from another paint manufacturer).

Does your mephiston red glaze apply smoothly? If it does, but the paint for the base layers doesn't, you could try applying multiple layers of the glaze instead of a couple of layers of just the paint without medium, and see if that makes a difference.

If it's not the paint but it's the layers that make it bumpy, have you considered trying wet blending? It can be a bit awkward, but there are tutorials on youtube on how to do it - it might help get the darker and lighter areas to behave better with each other with fewer layers? Or maybe trying a layer of varnish at the point before it goes bumpy, or before you apply the shade to help it be a smooth surface?

The other thought I had is whether your priming layer cured oddly, and is having a knock on effect when you paint over it; and the description you gave of the paint rubbing off makes me wonder if there was something on the plastic that means it doesn't adhere properly (it seems most people don't feel that plastic needs cleaning before painting, but it's something that popped into my mind).

Idk how helpful any of this might be, and other users feel free to correct my thoughts if any of them aren't sound.

I will try wet blending, can't hurt....never really got the hang of it though before. Also the surface became bumpy whenever I applied any of the reds. Didn't matter if it was just a layer of mephiston red or a couple of layers glaze of mephiston red. But the surface was smooth before that.

Also I was not precise when I said the paint rubbed off easily. Only the reds rubbed off easily, the basecoat of black and the parts with retributor armor and reikland fleshshade did not rub off. Also the parts that came off easliy were on the middle, or the high spots of the shoulderpads, the edges did not come off easily.

Argive wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think the top pic of the shoulder pad looks almost spot on. Id keep doing what you doing and refine your recipe.

.

Thanks, any advice? Because I've tried a couple of things, but I sitll always have problems with the consistency of the paint. Like deadshot explained in his reply, it gets rather think and chalky rather fast and does not create the smooth surface I am looking for. Even just the 2-3 thin layers of mephiston red I always put down as the basis does not create a smooth surface even though I really try to work in even brush strokes and not let the paint pool anywhere.

I'm afraid I cant think of any quick and dirty to get the level of finish you want..

The pain in the ass answer is: paint with glazes and be very patient and prepared it will take countless layers..

If I was tackling this and did not care abut time, I would probably start with black base. Then Bloodletter Red glaze the whole surface, then thin layer of methiston, leaving a gap towards the edges (cover 90% of the area), it will come out dark, then another layer of blood letter all over then a thin layer of khorne red/mephiston, then another glaze, then a layer of * I cant remember the GW name but a lighter red than khrone, mephiston whatever the next shade up is* I think it might be wild rider or evil suns scarlet?* then glaze but this time not all the way to the edge and so on... Rinse repeat with ultra thin glaze layers bringing the colours up slightly towards the middle and reducing the surface area covered.

Other than that:
Are you using wet pallet?
What mediums are you using for thinning? Maybe try lahmian medium/retarder rations and mixed with water?
Maybe get some normal marine pads to experiment on? Its a bigger surface area but you might be able to refine some recipe and play around with washes/glazes without worrying about ruining your custodies pads ?


At this stage I'm pretty sure the same paints from different batches can have different properties.
I have 2 pots of Macragge Blue and one pot is noticeably lighter. So it could be the red you have is slightly off so might need to play around with mixing/watering down. Using a wet pallet helps with keeping consistency bit longer so as mentioned I hope you use one of those,

I am using a wet pallet and I made my glaze with lhamian medium and I also tried with some water mixed in additionaly. That may sound unusual, but since I got into the hobby because of custodes, I don't have any other models as of now. So I don't even own any marine pads... But I will find some other surface to try on.

Anyway thanks for all the advice, I will have to try some stuff and refine the recipe.

One last thing though, what is the best way to strip the paint on the red parts of the shoulderpads in your opinion? I don't want to keep working with them as they are because it would be a waste of time at this stage, I'd never get a smooth finish with how they are now unless I start over.

I have loads and I don't even collect marines lol. PM me if you want me to send you some.

Id say keep it as as a reminder and move onto the next model. I haven't stripped plastic so Im not sure tbh.

Oh, one last thing: this is a bit off topic, but I did not want to create a seperate thread just for this.

Since I plan to use this model on the tabletop, how do you guys protect your paintjobs during gaming? Do you varnish your models?
When I first got into the hobby ages ago I always shied away from varnishes, because I hated the finish they left. Either too glossy or too matt.
Do you use them? And how do they affect your paintjob?

Edit: I am especially interested how they affect metallics and specifically gold, since like 80% of the model is gold.

Don't bother with wet blending. Your problem is that you used too few layers, and tried to blend it using nuln oil. Without getting too much into the nerd stuff of colour theory, Red and black are pretty much polar opposites on the light spectrum (think about the rainbow and which colour comes first)

What this means is that if you apply a black wash over red all you will get is a horribly jarring finish which is not nice on the eyes at all. Adding carrouberg over the top will just enhance this.

To get a smooth red what you need to do is either work up from black to red, gradually adding your red to the black, this is what I do, but is more time consuming and requires lots of layers to be smooth, or for a quicker alternative, you could use a couple of washes of carrouberg crimson over the red, pulling it down towards the shadowed areas. Once this is dry apply a pin wash of black to the deepest shadow. Then take your red base colour and apply again in the lighter areas, then work up to your highlight colour.

Judging by the rest of the paint job, either of these methods should be easily achievable! Keep it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when I first opened this thread I though you had a big mound of weed in the corner of your photos...

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Don't bother with wet blending. Your problem is that you used too few layers, and tried to blend it using nuln oil. Without getting too much into the nerd stuff of colour theory, Red and black are pretty much polar opposites on the light spectrum (think about the rainbow and which colour comes first)

What this means is that if you apply a black wash over red all you will get is a horribly jarring finish which is not nice on the eyes at all. Adding carrouberg over the top will just enhance this.

To get a smooth red what you need to do is either work up from black to red, gradually adding your red to the black, this is what I do, but is more time consuming and requires lots of layers to be smooth, or for a quicker alternative, you could use a couple of washes of carrouberg crimson over the red, pulling it down towards the shadowed areas. Once this is dry apply a pin wash of black to the deepest shadow. Then take your red base colour and apply again in the lighter areas, then work up to your highlight colour.

Judging by the rest of the paint job, either of these methods should be easily achievable! Keep it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when I first opened this thread I though you had a big mound of weed in the corner of your photos...

Thank you for the advice, I will try that. Though what I don't quite understand is how more layers will help me with the surface. I applied lots of layers of mephiston red glaze (again, I made the glaze with lhamian medium just for reference) and never got a smooth surface, not only in the lower parts where I used nuln oil, but also on those parts where I never touched the pad with nuln oil.

Also why wouldn't I make a picture of the miniature with a big mound of weed in the background, I thought this was standard practice It's just an old GW tree atop a hill/mountain I made for the gaming table I am building for my best friend and myself. Might post a picture of that table some time, it's far from finished, but I'm rather proud of how it's turning out.

Edit: also I'd be glad if someone had some advice as to how to reset the paint job I did on those two shoulderpads. Should I lay them in ethanol or isopropanol for some time and then brush the paint off? Does that work without ruining the plastic and the details?

Have a friend I trust who claims 91% Iso on a Q-tip can be used as a small-patch eraser for painting, but can't say I've tried to to see if it actually works or damages anything.

There are millions of threads on stripping paint on here, might be worth a look as people have different techniques. Personally I use brown dettol and nail varnish remover but for plastic this can be risky.. You have to be on top of the process the whole time.

So to get smooth surfaces, you need to build up thin layers. So for the technique I mentioned above, I would prime, then sketch a shadow area with a thin but still fairly opaque layer of black, then I mix red into the black, and layer this up from the black to the unshaded area. Then mix in more red and do the same but incrementally covering less and less area. After a couple of layers you'll be up to pure red, then continue the process mixingyour highlight tone into the red. If you need to smooth the transition either go back to the previous tone and apply a thin layer. Once you've finished if you want to enrich the tones you could make a glaze using lahmain medium and carrouberg crimson, or use bloodletter to lighten the tones, there are tons of possibilities. It's really an organic process that you'll just fiuure out wihh practice really. Focus on achieving nice transitions between tones.

I use satin varnish (when I can be bothered).

I finally got to do some experimenting and I managed to pull it off, thanks to you guys and the advice I've gotten in this thread. Thanks a lot again!

So what I did is just use glazes from the start. Started with abaddon black in the very corners, made a glaze with mephiston red, carborough crimson and abaddon black and pulled it more towards the high parts and finally made a glaze just with mephiston red and carborough crimson for the highest part. I also put some satin varnish from vallejo on the red parts of the shoulderpad.

Pics:






I hope you can see the transitions of the reds in the pictures, was kinda hard to take a good one since it's a bit glossy. Really happy with how this one turned out....jus 4 more with shields to go....

Looks great! You got a pretty smooth transition with the reds too.

Nice. Looks much better. I'd take an even lighter highlight right upto the top of the light area to really make it pop.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Nice. Looks much better. I'd take an even lighter highlight right upto the top of the light area to really make it pop.

I thought about that, but I personally like the darker, more subdued look better.