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Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Name one time a terminator was able to move and shoot a heavy weapon at full BS... joking of course bring that back!

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

macluvin wrote:
Name one time a terminator was able to move and shoot a heavy weapon at full BS... joking of course bring that back!

Scarab Occult Termies get it, as does all Death Guard termies/infantry from their army trait.

but yeah bring it back, I adore termies and the loss of it does hurt my Black Legion/Iron Warriors termies.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

Agreed, same net affect for Heavies, but even better for Bolters that would get to hit on 2s with double shots all the time

-

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

I've proposed this before. Usually it goes:
1. Sternguard have BS2+ with point cost to reflect
2. Vanguard have WS2+ with a slight point bump
3. Loyalist Terminator variants, Chaos Terminator variants, and Paladins get WS/BS2+.

Terminators would have an extra attack on top of it, so now you actually have a choice to make instead of just picking Aggressors and Centurions 100% of the time.

Terminators are the elite warriors of the Space Marine Chapters, one doesn't just 'get' Terminator armour. It is earned through accomplishments in battle, so Terminator warriors are experienced veterans and their armour is prized amongst Chapters for its strength/resilience and how rare it has became.

There is no chance that a Terminator should suffer a debuff for moving and firing, I am surprised that Terminators don't have this as standard, amongst other things like more attacks etc. Big fan of Terminators but the eighth edition has rendered them kinda pointless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

I've proposed this before. Usually it goes:
1. Sternguard have BS2+ with point cost to reflect
2. Vanguard have WS2+ with a slight point bump
3. Loyalist Terminator variants, Chaos Terminator variants, and Paladins get WS/BS2+.

Terminators would have an extra attack on top of it, so now you actually have a choice to make instead of just picking Aggressors and Centurions 100% of the time.

Shouldn't chosen get the same? Possibly cult troops?

And for feths sake let chosen take jump packs so we can have real raptors.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

I've proposed this before. Usually it goes:
1. Sternguard have BS2+ with point cost to reflect
2. Vanguard have WS2+ with a slight point bump
3. Loyalist Terminator variants, Chaos Terminator variants, and Paladins get WS/BS2+.

Terminators would have an extra attack on top of it, so now you actually have a choice to make instead of just picking Aggressors and Centurions 100% of the time.

Shouldn't chosen get the same? Possibly cult troops?

And for feths sake let chosen take jump packs so we can have real raptors.

My propositions usually involve moving Chosen into the Troop slot because the Chaos Marine entry itself has no place in the game. Then everyone (besides Cultists, duh) has Vet stats at minimum. That solves your Raptor issue right there. Then we get the basic switcharoo of troops we got last edition (so Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, Possessed for Word Bearers, etc.), but Chosen would still have their place in those armies.

Terminators should not be able to move and fire heavy weapons, same as dreads. For God's sake, they're not SOB retributors! Ridiculous concept.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

I've proposed this before. Usually it goes:
1. Sternguard have BS2+ with point cost to reflect
2. Vanguard have WS2+ with a slight point bump
3. Loyalist Terminator variants, Chaos Terminator variants, and Paladins get WS/BS2+.

Terminators would have an extra attack on top of it, so now you actually have a choice to make instead of just picking Aggressors and Centurions 100% of the time.

Shouldn't chosen get the same? Possibly cult troops?

And for feths sake let chosen take jump packs so we can have real raptors.

My propositions usually involve moving Chosen into the Troop slot because the Chaos Marine entry itself has no place in the game. Then everyone (besides Cultists, duh) has Vet stats at minimum. That solves your Raptor issue right there. Then we get the basic switcharoo of troops we got last edition (so Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, Possessed for Word Bearers, etc.), but Chosen would still have their place in those armies.

I've made that argument before as well. We're definitely on the same page on that. Bring back votlw.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

Honestly, I'd rather just give Terminators and other Vets a 2+ WS/BS.

Same net effect (excepting Plasma) on heavies when moving and Powerfists, better with Lightning Claws and Bolters.

I've proposed this before. Usually it goes:
1. Sternguard have BS2+ with point cost to reflect
2. Vanguard have WS2+ with a slight point bump
3. Loyalist Terminator variants, Chaos Terminator variants, and Paladins get WS/BS2+.

Terminators would have an extra attack on top of it, so now you actually have a choice to make instead of just picking Aggressors and Centurions 100% of the time.

Shouldn't chosen get the same? Possibly cult troops?

And for feths sake let chosen take jump packs so we can have real raptors.

My propositions usually involve moving Chosen into the Troop slot because the Chaos Marine entry itself has no place in the game. Then everyone (besides Cultists, duh) has Vet stats at minimum. That solves your Raptor issue right there. Then we get the basic switcharoo of troops we got last edition (so Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, Possessed for Word Bearers, etc.), but Chosen would still have their place in those armies.

I've made that argument before as well. We're definitely on the same page on that. Bring back votlw.

Basically the goal is that CSM don't really move through ranks and become more disciplined, and rather rely on their experience and chaos powers.

bump FOR GLORY.... lol

I would be in heavy favour of giving them Relentless again, as part of Terminator Armour lore is being able to carry and fire the big guns easily.

I'd also jump onto the bandwagon of giving Veterans of all flavours better WS and BS. I'd say give Sternguard BS2+, Vanguard WS2+ and Terminators get both. That definitely improve both Vanguard and Terminators into viable units, and make Sternguard without Special Issue Bolters worth taking.

This is really pulling a thread. If you give Terminators relentless then you really should give it to vehicles as well. It's moronic that factions with incredibly advanced technology can't handle moving and shooting.

But it's not advanced. It's like WWI in space. It's Schrodinger's technology. Simultaneously advanced and gakky.

Martel732 wrote:
But it's not advanced. It's like WWI in space. It's Schrodinger's technology. Simultaneously advanced and gakky.

I know you have a weird vendetta but you can't both ignore and dismiss all the lore and try and talk about it in any sense.

I am talking about the lore. Their tech is simultaneously advanced and gakky. Tanks could only fire one gun before if they moved, and now they take a substantial penalty for moving. LOL.

I'm dismissive because the whole plot makes no sense, nor their concept of technology.

The only reason any 40K unit is dangerous is magical space metal, because their doctrine and weaponry is a joke. I mean it kind of has to be, because otherwise whichever side has air support or orbital support would just win, right?

 Deadshot wrote:
I would be in heavy favour of giving them Relentless again, as part of Terminator Armour lore is being able to carry and fire the big guns easily.

I'd also jump onto the bandwagon of giving Veterans of all flavours better WS and BS. I'd say give Sternguard BS2+, Vanguard WS2+ and Terminators get both. That definitely improve both Vanguard and Terminators into viable units, and make Sternguard without Special Issue Bolters worth taking.

I've been a big proponent of this. It makes the Elite units actually feel elite and not reliant on the HQs to do what they need to do. It solves the problem we have without needing to add more rules. Ultimately it's a win.

Martel732 wrote:
I am talking about the lore. Their tech is simultaneously advanced and gakky. Tanks could only fire one gun before if they moved, and now they take a substantial penalty for moving. LOL.

I'm dismissive because the whole plot makes no sense, nor their concept of technology.

I know. But you also insist on referring to it as fanfiction and its generally impossible to talk to you about it. You can talk about it and that's fine. Or you can do nothing but insist it's all nonsensical, rubbish fanfiction that you hate and ignore which is also fine(ish). But you can't talk about it and constantly do almost nothing but irrationally hate on it.

Technology as they claim it in the fanfiction is simultaneously advanced and yet gakky. Better?

It's the future, but their vehicles can't move and shoot as you point out. Their technology in many ways is inferior to what we have. As both claimed in the fanfiction and represented on the tabletop.

Just like with the Bolter Discipline, Termies and Vehicles should be able to do this.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Just like with the Bolter Discipline, Termies and Vehicles should be able to do this.

Vehicles don't have bolter discipline, they put regular humans into crewing Land Raiders... Or something.

 vict0988 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Just like with the Bolter Discipline, Termies and Vehicles should be able to do this.

Vehicles don't have bolter discipline, they put regular humans into crewing Land Raiders... Or something.

Everything has bolter discipline - but vehicles dont get to rapid fire on the move is what you mean, except for Dreadnoughts.

Terminators are always a bit of a odd one as other factions equivalents tend to have assault weapons (Wraithguard, Mega Armour Nobz, Crisis Teams). Especially has Chaos Havocs already have this ability now.

Even with the additional states (which would show more progress from Line Brother up to Captain) I don't think giving them both upgrades would be broken (though may need a slight points tweak).

I was under the impression that some vehicle guns were guided by a computer. It was in the 7th edition rule book I think. Maybe I'm wrong.

GW keeps changing their story about this. It depends on how much of a Dune ripoff they feel like being at the moment. Modern battle tanks have a 90+% hit rate moving at full speed. With computers designed in the 1980s.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
I was under the impression that some vehicle guns were guided by a computer. It was in the 7th edition rule book I think. Maybe I'm wrong.

Some of them are space marines wired into the vehicle. For when you're a good shot but not good enough for a dreadnought.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

You are wrong, they should not suffer a -1 for Heavy Weapons or cumbersome CC weapons. Also a 2+ BS would be nice (integrated Targeters a la 2nd Edition.) Throw in a 2+ WS if you want, but ignoring the penalties is enough for me there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gary_1986 wrote:
Big fan of Terminators but the eighth edition has rendered them kinda pointless.

They can actually get some crazy CC damage output.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Terminators should not be hit with a -1 to hit penalty when moving and firing Heavy Weapons. #changemymind.

You are wrong, they should not suffer a -1 for Heavy Weapons or cumbersome CC weapons. Also a 2+ BS would be nice (integrated Targeters a la 2nd Edition.) Throw in a 2+ WS if you want, but ignoring the penalties is enough for me there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gary_1986 wrote:
Big fan of Terminators but the eighth edition has rendered them kinda pointless.

They can actually get some crazy CC damage output.

I ran a list of 20 Terminators and got a whole lot of mileage out of them but the BIGGEST issue was absolutely needing to spend a CP on fury of the first. If you ran out of CP (which one can easily do with 800+ points in terminators) then the reliable damage output just took a nosedive. It was a surprisingly massive issue.