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Do you that making all rerolls work like chapter masters, ie ignoring modifiers, make the game better and more balanced?

[Ignore Mechanic X] mechanic is arguably much worse than [Improve Chance] mechanic.

There's nothing wrong with reroll (unless your entire army has it for all phases, thereby unnecessarilly lengthening the game). There's something wrong with stackable modifiers.

As an Eldar player, the minuses aren't nearly as impactful as they used to be which can be seen as a good thing overall but the prevalence of these rerolls now rather than being reserved to the more specialist characters (Cawl for instance) has made the game even more killy in shooting and that is ultimately bad for the game in a game where games already end turn 3sh.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
As an Eldar player, the minuses aren't nearly as impactful as they used to be which can be seen as a good thing overall but the prevalence of these rerolls now rather than being reserved to the more specialist characters (Cawl for instance) has made the game even more killy in shooting and that is ultimately bad for the game in a game where games already end turn 3sh.

Agreed, the games are over too quickly on average. Chapter master rerolls also slow down the game to a crawl. playing against aggressors that reroll all hits + wound rolls of 1 in their shooting, then in the overwatch and then in the fight phase (assuming my chargers lived) makes the games unbearable. I thought orks took forever to shoot/fight but at least they dont get easy access to rerolls.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
As an Eldar player, the minuses aren't nearly as impactful as they used to be which can be seen as a good thing overall but the prevalence of these rerolls now rather than being reserved to the more specialist characters (Cawl for instance) has made the game even more killy in shooting and that is ultimately bad for the game in a game where games already end turn 3sh.

Agreed, the games are over too quickly on average. Chapter master rerolls also slow down the game to a crawl. playing against aggressors that reroll all hits + wound rolls of 1 in their shooting, then in the overwatch and then in the fight phase (assuming my chargers lived) makes the games unbearable. I thought orks took forever to shoot/fight but at least they dont get easy access to rerolls.

You fell victim to one of the most classic blunders. The most famous is don't get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well know is this: just pick up your models if you ever decide to charge aggressors without overwatch block.

The bubbles and there rerolls really slow the game down.

Yeah, having gotten the chance to play a few different game systems over the last few days, rerolls are now my absolute least favorite thing in the universe. Skew the odds weirdly, take freaking forever to resolve, and make everything hyper-deadly.

Got to echo the consensus here: re-rolls slow everything down and are generally just a feel-bad mechanic for the players on the receiving end too. It's even worse when an army has access to re-rolls to hit and to wound.

Over the years GW games have gradually removed randomness and unknowns. We've had pre-measuring introduced, then 8th edition introduced selectable psychic powers and WL traits and removed Deep Strike scatter. The final piece of the puzzle is that now, in some armies, the actual dice rolls aren't that important because you know before you make them what the results will be thanks to various to-hit buffs and re-rolls. I think it's gone too far.

Slipspace wrote:
Got to echo the consensus here: re-rolls slow everything down and are generally just a feel-bad mechanic for the players on the receiving end too. It's even worse when an army has access to re-rolls to hit and to wound.

Over the years GW games have gradually removed randomness and unknowns. We've had pre-measuring introduced, then 8th edition introduced selectable psychic powers and WL traits and removed Deep Strike scatter. The final piece of the puzzle is that now, in some armies, the actual dice rolls aren't that important because you know before you make them what the results will be thanks to various to-hit buffs and re-rolls. I think it's gone too far.

IIRC Psychic powers weren't random in 5th edition, the transition to 6th was a nightmare with random powers. Removing that kind of randomness was a good thing for the game.

Re-rolls slow everything down, agreed.

Sadly, when you have a game that runs on a d6 variable range, re-rolls is one of the primary methodologies available to create more varied results.

Outside of changing the dice used for the game to something with a wider range (this is extremely unlikely) I think re-rolls is just something that we're stuck with.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Re-rolls slow everything down, agreed.

Sadly, when you have a game that runs on a d6 variable range, re-rolls is one of the primary methodologies available to create more varied results.

Outside of changing the dice used for the game to something with a wider range (this is extremely unlikely) I think re-rolls is just something that we're stuck with.

This. I don't see a way out of this short term. People would be calling the game 'randumb' like they used to.

I personally don't have an issue with rerolls, because the other guy is on the clock for his huge pile of dice. I'll still be nice and pick up my models if there is no chance I survive though.

Move to D12's fully and make re-rolls just give +1 to hit.

I was thinking more along the lines of balance really, but other valid concerns have been raised.
Marine shooting with chapter masters is out of whack with pretty much everything else in the game in terms of accuracy except maybe custodes but they don't rely on shooting as much.
I was thinking that if all the other factions got the same rules for rerolls it might help balance things a bit better but I don't think anything other than reroll ones is very common? Guide and linked fire stratagem spring to mind for craftworlds but not much else.
Maybe if the chapter master style rerolls became an ignore all modifiers aura similar to dark reapers always hitting on 3's. This would greatly reduce the number of dice rolls though I'd still keep the reroll 1's in effect for lesser aura's.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:Re-rolls slow everything down, agreed.

Sadly, when you have a game that runs on a d6 variable range, re-rolls is one of the primary methodologies available to create more varied results.

Outside of changing the dice used for the game to something with a wider range (this is extremely unlikely) I think re-rolls is just something that we're stuck with.

Daedalus81 wrote:This. I don't see a way out of this short term. People would be calling the game 'randumb' like they used to.

I personally don't have an issue with rerolls, because the other guy is on the clock for his huge pile of dice. I'll still be nice and pick up my models if there is no chance I survive though.

Re-rolling 1s confers a straight 17% increase, which honestly doesn't seem significant enough to keep as a mechanic in spite of the additional time it consumes.

Meanwhile full rerolls are statistically close enough to just getting +1 on the roll that it wouldn't be hard to switch over.

6+ with reroll has a 30% chance of success, 5+ has 33%.
5+ with reroll has a 56% chance of success, 4+ has 50%.
4+ with reroll has a 75% chance of success, 3+ has 67%.
3+ with reroll has a 89% chance of success, 2+ has 83%.
2+ with reroll has a 97% chance of success, might as well make it an auto-success if you can stack all the way to 1+.

I'd be fine with GW just stripping out re-rolls and having some (not many) units convey +1s in certain situations.

Slipspace wrote:
Got to echo the consensus here: re-rolls slow everything down and are generally just a feel-bad mechanic for the players on the receiving end too. It's even worse when an army has access to re-rolls to hit and to wound.

Over the years GW games have gradually removed randomness and unknowns. We've had pre-measuring introduced, then 8th edition introduced selectable psychic powers and WL traits and removed Deep Strike scatter. The final piece of the puzzle is that now, in some armies, the actual dice rolls aren't that important because you know before you make them what the results will be thanks to various to-hit buffs and re-rolls. I think it's gone too far.

It’s off the rails, in a ditch, and on fire.

With regard to possible reworks, I don't think rerolls are the core issue.

IMO the core issue is auras. Because they usually mean that most of your army is getting those rerolls. It's a quantity issue, basically.

Furthermore, since most auras just give everything inside them a flat buff, you're just encouraged to spam the best units.


I think aura abilities should be reworked to be more like MWBD - i.e. buffing only one unit at a time, but with a slightly more substantial bonus (which would, I think, also make them feel less time-wasty).

Furthermore, at least in armies like SMs with plethoras of variant HQs, I'd suggest that HQs should be able to buff troops and a limited selection of units (based on the nature of the HQ in question). So, for example, a Terminator HQ might only be able to buff troops and Terminator units. A Biker HQ can only buff Bike units etc.

Might need a bit of tweaking but I think something like this would be a significant improvement over the current aura system.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to possible reworks, I don't think rerolls are the core issue.

IMO the core issue is auras. Because they usually mean that most of your army is getting those rerolls. It's a quantity issue, basically.

Furthermore, since most auras just give everything inside them a flat buff, you're just encouraged to spam the best units.


I think aura abilities should be reworked to be more like MWBD - i.e. buffing only one unit at a time, but with a slightly more substantial bonus (which would, I think, also make them feel less time-wasty).

Furthermore, at least in armies like SMs with plethoras of variant HQs, I'd suggest that HQs should be able to buff troops and a limited selection of units (based on the nature of the HQ in question). So, for example, a Terminator HQ might only be able to buff troops and Terminator units. A Biker HQ can only buff Bike units etc.

Might need a bit of tweaking but I think something like this would be a significant improvement over the current aura system.

I agree with most of that. Some characters probably make more sense buffing certain non-troops than certain troops, but having HQs "pair" with certain units seems like an interesting way to go. And I'm definitely in favor of turning most reroll auras into some sort of MWBD type rule. A lot of stratagems could probably become MWBD type rules.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to possible reworks, I don't think rerolls are the core issue.

IMO the core issue is auras. Because they usually mean that most of your army is getting those rerolls. It's a quantity issue, basically.

Furthermore, since most auras just give everything inside them a flat buff, you're just encouraged to spam the best units.


I think aura abilities should be reworked to be more like MWBD - i.e. buffing only one unit at a time, but with a slightly more substantial bonus (which would, I think, also make them feel less time-wasty).

Furthermore, at least in armies like SMs with plethoras of variant HQs, I'd suggest that HQs should be able to buff troops and a limited selection of units (based on the nature of the HQ in question). So, for example, a Terminator HQ might only be able to buff troops and Terminator units. A Biker HQ can only buff Bike units etc.

Might need a bit of tweaking but I think something like this would be a significant improvement over the current aura system.

Spamming Captains to get buff coverage is not good for the thematic part of the game. Auras also don't create the issue you think it creates, single target buffs means the most expensive units benefit more in terms of raw damage output than Tac Squads, but with Aura abilities you can just stick 2-6 Tac Squads inside an aura and they all benefit as much as that one Repulsor Executioner/FW Dreadnought.

7/6 might not seem like much but 7/6*7/6 is more than the sum of its parts and provides a real benefit. A dice-rolling app might be necessary for some armies in tournament contexts, but the interactions between multiple damage, FNP and multi-wound multi-model units is a bigger consumer of time.

 vict0988 wrote:

Spamming Captains to get buff coverage is not good for the thematic part of the game.

Nor are Knights, Fliers or Primarchs outside of Apocalypse but here we are.

 vict0988 wrote:
Auras also don't create the issue you think it creates, single target buffs means the most expensive units benefit more in terms of raw damage output than Tac Squads, but with Aura abilities you can just stick 2-6 Tac Squads inside an aura and they all benefit as much as that one Repulsor Executioner/FW Dreadnought.

In theory, yes. In practise, no. Because no one wants to spend points on Tac squads in the first place.

I agree that only bugging the best unit could be a problem, though that was part of the reason for limiting the number of units it can affect (so that you're not choosing between buffing a tactical squad and buffing a Leviathan Dreadnought).

 vict0988 wrote:

7/6 might not seem like much but 7/6*7/6 is more than the sum of its parts and provides a real benefit. A dice-rolling app might be necessary for some armies in tournament contexts, but the interactions between multiple damage, FNP and multi-wound multi-model units is a bigger consumer of time.

I don't disagree that it's useful. The issue is that rerolling 1s for near enough every unit in an army is incredibly time-consuming.

It's also not exactly dripping with strategic depth.


To be honest, even my proposed idea is far from an ideal solution. What I'd prefer would probably be to rework the CP/Stratagem mechanic entirely and make generating CPs and unlocking Stratagems the main function of non-Psyker HQs, rather than CPs being based on detachment choices.