Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 small_gods wrote:
Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.

Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.

Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.

Tournament results Are skewed due to soup though.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.

Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.

Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.

Tournament results Are skewed due to soup though.

This is true but up until the SM suppliments they had the most reason and ability to soup. Every SM list had at least one knight, loyal 32, BA smash captains or Custodes Jetbikes.

Hopefully with more options for a single legion, they'll be more incentive not to soup.

True however Chaos as a whole did so aswell, and there were only 3 types of csm units that Show up.

Aye, the suits do intervene in order to push sales.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.

Actually evidence suggests they don't like the results of testing and ignore it regularly. However, the result is the same.

This, too. It's terrible culture and they need to feel the pain.

Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.

PM me if you have a competently laid out info board for all the fething Chaos warlord traits and stratagems, AT THIS POINT I NEED A fething MAP to understand WHAT I AM ALLOWED TO PICK AND HOW TO BUILD A SOMEWHAT COMPETENT ARMY:





10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.

Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?

That sounds pretty nasty.

Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.

Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?

That sounds pretty nasty.

Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.

Because of a jump pack or something else? Because MoE is damn cheap for those stats.

Jump pack is indeed the case.
I did run a moe occaionally in my foot slogging mass rc army, but even there he never really achieved what he should have.
And then new marines showed up which made that army of me pretty unplayble sadly.


Also, i personally think He is a bit of an obsolete charachter.
Further i feel Like greater possesed achieve comoarable results.

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.

Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csm hq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.

Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.

Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csm hq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.

Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.

In fairness, MoE would be /fairly/ insane with his 6" heroic if he had the fly keyword. They'd have to make the jump pack option pretty pricy for whats just a HQ torpedo.

We didn't need him to beginn with and on foot he will allways remain more useless then all other options, even gp's are a better option.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a bizarre as well they didn't just open up Malefic to Sorcerers.

The mop discipline?

Probably because then noone would need the new mop?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm thinking that Psychic Awakening 2: Heretic Boogaloo is going to give a boost to us Chaos players.

Unrelated- I've been having a blast playing "Servants of the Abyss" (painted as Alpha Legion) in small Combat Patrol games and Kill Team.

SOA are great in killteam imo, quite interesting.

 Jidmah wrote:
Two books for the same models? If you're not careful, you''ll end up with 10!

There are allready though

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Renegades are not legions

And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.

Wrong. Renegades should be in the Chaos Marines Codex and Legions should be reserved for playing 30K. They have no place in 40K.

Ok tough guy, because all legions are shattered,yadda yadda.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.

That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).

The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.

Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.

there is a heavy dsitinction between shattering :( EC, WE) and having splinters.
You realise that.

A infantry division is also not shattered,if one brigade splits off. or some dudes deserted.....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

Probably the most structured legion left beyond AL, and IW, but alas...

The issue is, atleast with AL, what we know is that they relied on "warhosts", which were in essence adhoc formaions. (doctrine like it's the same as a Kampfgruppe.) And even in the heresey days they relied on a lot of desinformation, sabotage and non astartes personell.

Secondly, even though they seem to be organized in Terrorcells, they seemiingly band together witout any issues in bigger formations, meaning that they indeed still have an intact comand structure.

Further, considering that AL also relies on a lot of Operatives that are not marines, and have never been banished to the warp, means that they also are probably more numerous then most legions aswell.

So overall, they should in theory not be shattered but instead be completely organized diffrently to the common legions.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://wh40k-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://wh40k-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion Hte german one goes more indepth with more sourcing.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

They didn't even try to half-ass a trait system or anything. Just simply doesn't exist.

It becomes increasingly obvious that they just don't know what to do with Chaos in general. This is the second time this year (CSM v2 was in March) that they had the opportunity to revisit Legion traits etc and they didn't take it.

Ha, atleast they revist the CSm dex.

Unlike Renegades and heretics, or DG, or TS for that matter.
(then again the former is FW index army and GW is doing 'ts best to kill it outright atm and the later probably needed it less then the mainline CSM dex. Still annoying considering there are now 10 rulesources for Chaos space marines themselves...... Btw you can't even skip the shadowspear booklet due to the Psyker wl traits not beeing reprinted in dex 2.0, like dafuq?)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Continuity wrote:


Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything

The only way that rumor makes any sense now is if they were mistaken about which book it was in and PA has those changes, but only for TS and PG. Incredibly unlikely at this point.

It would also massively annoy the other csm players.
Until we and Ec show up that is

 vict0988 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'd quite like to see them do a custom chapter affair where you can trade trait rules for access to gods, get some renegades who will only court with nurgle & slaanesh for example but have fewer special rules than an undivided warband.

What's the benefit of being Nurgle/Slaanesh in this scenario if you have fewer special rules than an undivided warband?

Troop cult marines and cult bonus, akin to doctrines?
All nurgle gain 6+++

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly based on the fact we have all this garbage being released right now, do we really care?

Honestly, outside of what I mentioned above and some balance units I'm not sure what I would want them to release right now. Dialing CSM up to current SM levels of lethality might fix some issues, but I don't really think it's good for the game in general to be like that.

Honestly,i don't want to be dialed to that level. Simply because that get's to be the new standard then and we get 6-7th ed Arms race again.