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It's amazing how willing people are to discard Hanlon's Razor. "Never attribute to malice what could be adequately explained by incompetence."

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's amazing how willing people are to discard Hanlon's Razor. "Never attribute to malice what could be adequately explained by incompetence."

To be fair they DO want to sell models, but GW is able to do that even without rules (e.g. Sisters).

Some people just don't accept that GW proritizes their rules towards what they judge as interesting and expressive to depict the 40k universe, not towards tournaments and competition.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Some people just don't accept that GW proritizes their rules towards what they judge as interesting and expressive to depict the 40k universe, not towards tournaments and competition.

Removed - Rule #1 please


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If GW is not competent are not writing rules, and are also not competent at targeting rules at kits they just recently produced then isn't the more likely scenario just that they were trying to make fun rules and wound up overdoing it rather than making complicated leaps of logic?

Cool, explain how Methodical Annihilation works then? I mean, if they're competent rules writers who read and care about what goes into their product, that rule should be easy to interpret.

I have not been 100% through this topic but I wanted to add my own take on this after a game last night.

I played my dad who was running Imperial Fist with my Word Bearers, he was using the supplement with one of the new formations. So his basic troops were rocking a Heavy 1 30" S4 AP-3 D3 ignoring cover with a tohit roll of 6 counting as two hits (Targeting vehicles and monsters to be clear.) This is not taking into account the reroll auras from his characters to both tohit and towound. This also doesn't take into account everything else his army was rocking, just his basic intercessors.

I was running the new Faith and Fury rules for my Words Bearers and I got a Dark Apostle that could chant two whole prayers a turn, an aura that gives deamons +1 attack and an artifact that gave +1LD and rerolls to prayer rolls.

My chapter tactic gave me reroll moral checks, his chapter tactic gives ignores cover and any tohit of 6 with a bolter weapon counts as two hits. I can't believe how many special bolters space marines now have that make this ability insane.

I can not believe how much better Centurion Devastators were than my Obliterators for almost half the price when you consider all of these bonuses.

The worst part of all of this is that there have been two opportunities to address this with the joke called "Chaos Space Marines 2.0" and Faith and Fury that just adds a small amount of flavor. Should CSM be as OP as current loyalist? No, but this disparity is showing how new GW is just like old GW. 8th is turning into 7th all over again.

Stalker Bolt Rifles are bananas on a basic troop -- but I don't have the impression that CSM will be able to outshoot SM, especially the IF or IH flavors.

Word Bearers should have a lot of Daemons, maybe the key is to get to a 4++ and punish Intercessors who sacrificed volume of fire for those AP3 D3 shots?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm just getting caught up, but WB Possesed seem pretty interesting? Haven't read Alpha Legion yet though.

Except you're playing WB. Also, you still don't have any consistent way to deliver any significant number of them. About half the time the main thrust of your army is going to get gunned down before it even gets across the field to do anything.

The only legions that are worth considering from F&F are Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and maybe Emperor's Children (although I still think this is just going to be a fluffy choice).

What this really did was shore up a few Legions as CP battery detachments. I can throw 2 Battalions of crappy AL cultists and cheap characters in with some Chaos Knights, give them some nice tricks and decent screening against deep strike along with an extra 10 CP.

Iron Warriors daemon engine lists got improved, so there might be something there, but nothing that's not going to wither under SM firepower.

Emperor's Children got some cool stuff and some of their characters became pretty good murderbots, but it's a glorious death, not a path to victory.

This did nothing for rank and file CSM units, which are still garbage.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:Cool, explain how Methodical Annihilation works then? I mean, if they're competent rules writers who read and care about what goes into their product, that rule should be easy to interpret.

I think you misread his statement here. He does say GW is not good at rules writing. The wording is weird and I think RAW it does not work. RAI seems to be for me that you can re-roll any variable characteristic of the weapon your model is shooting with. Amount of shots, amount of damage and so on.

Possessed will come in T2 if they're walking so they're more of the right cross that will arrive after the jab.

Ashen Axe is top-tier, if you can trap a unit with the Lord any unit that joins that combat can't be shot at. Ideally you're locking up something like 300pts of Lascannon DevCents but even if you sneak a single Possessed squad into combat with a screening unit, it stops the enemy from targeting the rest of the squad.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Possessed will come in T2 if they're walking so they're more of the right cross that will arrive after the jab.

Ashen Axe is top-tier, if you can trap a unit with the Lord any unit that joins that combat can't be shot at. Ideally you're locking up something like 300pts of Lascannon DevCents but even if you sneak a single Possessed squad into combat with a screening unit, it stops the enemy from targeting the rest of the squad.

I'd say you should test this and report back, but since you won't be doing so competitively the data would be useless.

You're still talking about trapping units with a single Chaos Lord, it's a glorious death, not a path to victory.

Again, your T2 Possessed even getting to engage is a coin flip at best.

So, no, it's at best a huge gamble list where the biggest threats are either easily ignored or eliminated before they become a threat.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm just getting caught up, but WB Possesed seem pretty interesting? Haven't read Alpha Legion yet though.

Except you're playing WB. Also, you still don't have any consistent way to deliver any significant number of them. About half the time the main thrust of your army is going to get gunned down before it even gets across the field to do anything.

The only legions that are worth considering from F&F are Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and maybe Emperor's Children (although I still think this is just going to be a fluffy choice).

What this really did was shore up a few Legions as CP battery detachments. I can throw 2 Battalions of crappy AL cultists and cheap characters in with some Chaos Knights, give them some nice tricks and decent screening against deep strike along with an extra 10 CP.

Iron Warriors daemon engine lists got improved, so there might be something there, but nothing that's not going to wither under SM firepower.

Emperor's Children got some cool stuff and some of their characters became pretty good murderbots, but it's a glorious death, not a path to victory.

This did nothing for rank and file CSM units, which are still garbage.

World Eaters have some good Lord loadouts. Gorefather is a monster of a weapon at least, right?

Otherwise, meh. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are still on top.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
World Eaters have some good Lord loadouts. Gorefather is a monster of a weapon at least, right?

I've always enjoyed your fatalistic sense of humor Slayer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Otherwise, meh. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are still on top.

Agreed. An AL battalion at slightly under 300 points, you can slot in 2 of them with a full super-heavy detachment of Chaos Knights and be rolling with 19 CP for them. Probably spend a CP to put Hydra's Wail on one of your cheapo HQ, use Scrambled Coordinates to protect them from deep strike, Renascent Infiltration to reposition to Cultists squads to objectives while knights run around doing the heavy lifting. It's not a noble job for the mighty Alpha Legion, but sometimes you have to work the fry cooker to pay the bills, right?

IW is a big maybe. LD and LoS partnership got better, for sure. Maybe that can be parleyed into something competitive, but it's nothing that's actually going to hold up under Executioner fire.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'd say you should test this and report back

Well, that's definitely the idea.

If I want to avoid enemy fire, the two best places are either locked in combat or out of LOS. Maybe I don't comprehend the depths of your tactical creativity or genius, but you can agree on that much, right?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Maybe I don't comprehend the depths of your tactical creativity or genius, but you can agree on that much, right?

Narrative games aren't the best environment for rules balance testing, I think we can agree on that much, right?

a_typical_hero wrote:

TwinPoleTheory wrote:Cool, explain how Methodical Annihilation works then? I mean, if they're competent rules writers who read and care about what goes into their product, that rule should be easy to interpret.

I think you misread his statement here. He does say GW is not good at rules writing. The wording is weird and I think RAW it does not work. RAI seems to be for me that you can re-roll any variable characteristic of the weapon your model is shooting with. Amount of shots, amount of damage and so on.

Right, I think that GW just screws up a lot mostly linked to how absurd the release schedule is.

There are just too many effin' books and there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.

Actually evidence suggests they don't like the results of testing and ignore it regularly. However, the result is the same.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Narrative games aren't the best environment for rules balance testing, I think we can agree on that much, right?

I wasn't aware there was a "competitive ruleset!"

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.

Actually evidence suggests they don't like the results of testing and ignore it regularly. However, the result is the same.

This, too. It's terrible culture and they need to feel the pain.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.

Actually evidence suggests they don't like the results of testing and ignore it regularly. However, the result is the same.

This, too. It's terrible culture and they need to feel the pain.

Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.

PM me if you have a competently laid out info board for all the fething Chaos warlord traits and stratagems, AT THIS POINT I NEED A fething MAP to understand WHAT I AM ALLOWED TO PICK AND HOW TO BUILD A SOMEWHAT COMPETENT ARMY:





10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
World Eaters have some good Lord loadouts. Gorefather is a monster of a weapon at least, right?

I've always enjoyed your fatalistic sense of humor Slayer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Otherwise, meh. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are still on top.

Agreed. An AL battalion at slightly under 300 points, you can slot in 2 of them with a full super-heavy detachment of Chaos Knights and be rolling with 19 CP for them. Probably spend a CP to put Hydra's Wail on one of your cheapo HQ, use Scrambled Coordinates to protect them from deep strike, Renascent Infiltration to reposition to Cultists squads to objectives while knights run around doing the heavy lifting. It's not a noble job for the mighty Alpha Legion, but sometimes you have to work the fry cooker to pay the bills, right?

IW is a big maybe. LD and LoS partnership got better, for sure. Maybe that can be parleyed into something competitive, but it's nothing that's actually going to hold up under Executioner fire.

It was a half joke. I think there's a merit to VotLW and charging in with Gorefather to get 3MW on every 5+ done, but there are likely better suicide Missile Lord loadouts.

And Iron Warriors getting a Lt. aura is pretty good for gunline especially if you're gunning to use a Scorpius or three.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.

PM me if you have a competently laid out info board for all the fething Chaos warlord traits and stratagems, AT THIS POINT I NEED A fething MAP to understand WHAT I AM ALLOWED TO PICK AND HOW TO BUILD A SOMEWHAT COMPETENT ARMY:





10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.

Sanity is for the weak?
Seriously, though, my head hurts. Perhaps somebody can mock up a nice conspiracy yarn board with all the CSM rules stuff. Would hands-down beat the crap memes they posted on warcom.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It was a half joke. I think there's a merit to VotLW and charging in with Gorefather to get 3MW on every 5+ done, but there are likely better suicide Missile Lord loadouts.

And Iron Warriors getting a Lt. aura is pretty good for gunline especially if you're gunning to use a Scorpius or three.

I'm sure, I'm just not big on the suicide lord these days, what it actually accomplishes is pretty questionable.

Yeah, it's amazing, no doubt, totally something IW needed last year. Unfortunately, now, all the RG players will appreciate that IW players have loaded more eggs into a single, easily assassinated basket. So, it is legitimately good most of the time, until that one time when it dies in the first turn or two, no matter where or how you deploy it on the field.

Gorefather triggers on a natural 6, not 6+.

Not Online!!! wrote:
10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.

You keep citing this 10 releases thing, dude - what are you counting in there, and is this for soup or mono?

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.

You keep citing this 10 releases thing, dude - what are you counting in there, and is this for soup or mono?

and even if where where 10 releases, what are the odds you'd use them all. my CSM army is black legion, I don't partiuclarly need PA2, for example.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.

You keep citing this 10 releases thing, dude - what are you counting in there, and is this for soup or mono?

and even if where where 10 releases, what are the odds you'd use them all. my CSM army is black legion, I don't partiuclarly need PA2, for example.

I'm probably souping in IW havocs. It isn't necessary, but certainly more competitive.

So, for me its PA2, VA, and codex. Whenever Thousand Sons get tagged I'll probably get that, too.

Not 10, but 4 is a fair stack.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.

Actually evidence suggests they don't like the results of testing and ignore it regularly. However, the result is the same.

This, too. It's terrible culture and they need to feel the pain.

Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.

It's shovelware being churned out before 9th hits and makes them all irrelevant anyway.

Besides, why should GW employ and fund a salary for balance testers? They have more than enough whales/'Nerd OCD' that will happily lap up absolutely anything and everything they produce.

 Arbitrator wrote:
It's shovelware being churned out before 9th hits and makes them all irrelevant anyway.

Besides, why should GW employ and fund a salary for balance testers? They have more than enough whales/'Nerd OCD' that will happily lap up absolutely anything and everything they produce.

Sadly this. They've made record-setting profits DESPITE this. Why do they need to fix anything anymore? 8th edition is almost as bad bloat as 7th was, and the fanbase just doesn't care. They ate it up like the second coming of Christ and skyrocketed GW's success like never before. GW learned that the majority of players don't care what they do so why would they take any steps to improve?