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So there has been a reasonable amount of discussion about Codex Space Marines v2 being the first of the 8.5 Codexes

Sisters are the following Dex.

How do the two compare?

(Marines are already out as is all info about Sisters: https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-sisters-of-battle-the-goonhammer-review/ )

Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

What do people think?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

x.5 suggests the second codex on an edition, which is technically true of both given the sisters had the prior beta codex.

In terms of equal, marines have closing in on 200 units, a phonebook of game-changing bonuses, and a streak of high tournament places. The sisters have less than 30 units including a conspicuous lack of mortal wound generation, character targeting, and indirect fire, and early tactics discussions appear to revolve around the strategy of 'spread out and try not to die'.

Though i'm not really sure the current state of space marines is a good comparison for anything.

The Sisters book might or might not be less powerful than 2.0 Marines, but it's objectively better because they wrote a powerful book that has good flavor and fluff.

Doctrines are very strong but also very bland.

It is hard to ignore that there is some similarities between the new sisters codex and 2.0 marines books. IDK if it is the heralding of new 2.0 codices. If it were, why even do Psychic Awakening? All the rules in the books could just as easily been made into supplements.

Personally, I find it to be a bit confusing and all the books are kind of starting to run together for me. I really think GW should just focus on either releasing supplements, or focus on campaign books.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So there has been a reasonable amount of discussion about Codex Space Marines v2 being the first of the 8.5 Codexes

Were Grey Knights the 5.5 of 5th Edition?

Was Screamerstar the 7.5 of 7th Edition?


That 8.5 talk is a bunch of non-sense from people unwilling to admit to themselves they enjoy playing with the broken goods.

Go rock a tournament with Iron Hand flyers or some Ravenguard Centurions and have fun. I do. Just be honest about what's going on.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So there has been a reasonable amount of discussion about Codex Space Marines v2 being the first of the 8.5 Codexes

Sisters are the following Dex.

How do the two compare?

(Marines are already out as is all info about Sisters: https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-sisters-of-battle-the-goonhammer-review/ )

Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

What do people think?

The sisters book is MUCH weaker compared to the marine book.

It's not even that the sisters book is bad (it's just mildly underpowered) just that the marine book is SO MUCH BETTER.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
The Sisters book might or might not be less powerful than 2.0 Marines, but it's objectively better because they wrote a powerful book that has good flavor and fluff.

Doctrines are very strong but also very bland.

Subjectively is the correct word in that sentence. Especially when 'better' isn't really defined.

And the the sisters book is definitely less powerful than marines 2.0. Again, not terrible, just weaker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So there has been a reasonable amount of discussion about Codex Space Marines v2 being the first of the 8.5 Codexes

Were Grey Knights the 5.5 of 5th Edition?

Was Screamerstar the 7.5 of 7th Edition?


That 8.5 talk is a bunch of non-sense from people unwilling to admit to themselves they enjoy playing with the broken goods.

Go rock a tournament with Iron Hand flyers or some Ravenguard Centurions and have fun. I do. Just be honest about what's going on.

You're burying your head in the sand.

The marine book is OP, sure, but it's also written in a way that is significantly different than any other codex before it (doctrines, make your own chapter tactics, much wordier CTs).

Sisters are not even remotely OP but also is written differently than previous books (sacred rites and wordy order traits.)

It may not herald a new edition but it's definitely a new design paradigm for codexes.

Are sisters really so different?
They get an extra buff if you want to run them mono - which you can take or leave.
The chapter tactic often impacts the miracle dice - hence more words - but otherwise its not so different.

As I see it Sisters looks like a fun balanced codex that could have a reasonable amount of depth - at least until people crack it. Transports look like the obvious weak link. Not terrible perhaps - but Rhinos are obsolete, and the Immolator could easily be 10 points cheaper. Maybe more.

But as said, does it compare to IH or RG etc? No, not at all.

"8.5" is just a child of the "Marine's 7e codex was garbage - because it was the worst 7.5 book, with the definition of 7.5 being all books better than Marines" concept.

"8.5" may work out to be the same construct - anything that tops Marines is an "8.5" book, anything that doesn't is trash and doesn't count.

Marines were pretty garbage in 7th. I lived it. Meqs being bad dates back to 5th, really. You needed snowflake meqs to do well in 5th.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

No, and yes. As for the 8.5 standard, I think we'll be seeing mono-bonuses being rolled out and revamped stratagem, and the two have a lot of design choices in common.

As for being equal, not remotely.
Our traits are for the most part weak, weaker than even early-edition traits. Argent Shroud [probably one of our best] is literally half of Tallarn, which gives the same benefit to infantry but also lets tanks move and fire, for example. The only one legitimately good in a vacuum is Bloody Rose, and it only benefits a small set of our units. In comparison, the Space Marine chapter tactics all have a bunch of parts [not to mention custom chapters that have at least 2 features, and which somehow don't prevent access to chapter-specific stratagems and relic and options like Eldar [and probably everybody else] does.]
Our sacred rites are also drastically weaker, even than the non-supplemented doctrine of +1AP to your choice of weapons. We get AP on a hit roll of 6 if we chose to only have an AP improvement, and nothing like the supplement doctrine. The strongest of ours is probably Death to the False Everything, which is at least always active but still weaker in raw power when it is than White Scars +1D on the charge.

As for profiles and costs, the Exorcist got nerfed [and probably badly at that], and so did Dominions, our core "good units". Repentia got buffed a little bit. Canoness lost her Eviscerator option, and we still don't have any wound support in an army that basically has no S9+ weapons. Retributors got buffed significantly.

The faith miracle dice mechanic is weak and limited to replacing 1 roll per phase before you roll, which is a pretty low-influence mechanic, but it at least it isn't "roll a die and see if something cool happens unreliably!" So I don't really have a problem with it.

I would judge it to be a mid-low range codex at best.

I think the Sisters codex's success will weight pretty heavily on a few variables, such as how good the Miracle Dice mechanic is. But I think it's safe to say that the new Sisters are weaker than the baseline loyalist Space Marines, and significantly weaker than the loyalist Space Marine supplements.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

No, and yes. As for the 8.5 standard, I think we'll be seeing mono-bonuses being rolled out and revamped stratagem, and the two have a lot of design choices in common.

As for being equal, not remotely.
Our traits are for the most part weak, weaker than even early-edition traits. Argent Shroud [probably one of our best] is literally half of Tallarn, which gives the same benefit to infantry but also lets tanks move and fire, for example. The only one legitimately good in a vacuum is Bloody Rose, and it only benefits a small set of our units. In comparison, the Space Marine chapter tactics all have a bunch of parts [not to mention custom chapters that have at least 2 features, and which somehow don't prevent access to chapter-specific stratagems and relic and options like Eldar [and probably everybody else] does.]
Our sacred rites are also drastically weaker, even than the non-supplemented doctrine of +1AP to your choice of weapons. We get AP on a hit roll of 6 if we chose to only have an AP improvement, and nothing like the supplement doctrine. The strongest of ours is probably Death to the False Everything, which is at least always active but still weaker in raw power when it is than White Scars +1D on the charge.

As for profiles and costs, the Exorcist got nerfed [and probably badly at that], and so did Dominions, our core "good units". Repentia got buffed a little bit. Canoness lost her Eviscerator option, and we still don't have any wound support in an army that basically has no S9+ weapons. Retributors got buffed significantly.

The faith miracle dice mechanic is weak and limited to replacing 1 roll per phase before you roll, which is a pretty low-influence mechanic, but it at least it isn't "roll a die and see if something cool happens unreliably!" So I don't really have a problem with it.

I would judge it to be a mid-low range codex at best.

Wait, the Exorcist was nerfed? Seems like it was buffed to me?

Also, I think you might underestimating the strength of the miracle dice.

One thing I need clarified, though, regarding miracle dice (I don't have the codex):

We know that we usually "fast roll" saves and to-hits, which is just rolling everything that hits or saves on the same profile at the same time. Is there anything stopping you from just "fast rolling" all but one die every time you roll, and then determining whether or not to use a miracle die for that last die roll?

Oh and one other thing to consider:

Now that Sisters have an honest-to-goodness codex, they can have new model releases to fill in some gaps. There's already new units in the codex that don't even have models yet (unprecidented for GW lately!).

Quasistellar wrote:
There's already new units in the codex that don't even have models yet (unprecidented for GW lately!).

Helverin, the new armiger buffing knight, impulsor. Not that unprecedented.

I would like to see 8.5 rounded up and accompanied by a stratagem card burning.

ERJAK wrote:

You're burying your head in the sand.

The marine book is OP, sure, but it's also written in a way that is significantly different than any other codex before it (doctrines, make your own chapter tactics, much wordier CTs).

Sisters are not even remotely OP but also is written differently than previous books (sacred rites and wordy order traits.)

It may not herald a new edition but it's definitely a new design paradigm for codexes.

As far as new mono-faction bonuses go, and other things such as no more 1/3 CP for relics. Sure. Those will probably be found in future Codexes. So again, perhaps Chaos Knights was the first 8.5 Codex, because it was the book that fully purged "old" re-rolls (if you don't count Vigilus Ablaze). Or perhaps Drukahri was the first 8.5 Codex, because it had 3-mini supplements in one book and some fancy stuff like the 6-Patrol Detachment Formation. Or perhaps GSC with their little blip mechanic. Or perhaps the Orks Codex was the first 8.5 Codex. That Deathskull trait is still wordier than anything in the Marines Codex.

New mechanics will come out and GW will continue to experiment with them. Sure.

But as far as the Marines significantly elevated "power level" being a conscious new "benchmark for balance" that books going forward will be balanced again and books before the Marine book don't have to be balanced against. No. For one, previous books weren't terribly well balanced to begin with. For another, it's just an incredibly OP book. 8.5 in the sense of "we've raised the floor of damage output we generally want armies to have in the game and all other armies will be balanced against Nu-Marines going forward (sorry GSC, just another short 2 years of waiting). That's not the case. It's just a broken book. Simples. Maybe there'll be another book in August 2020 or whatever that'll be even more broken. And surely there'll be a few books in the future that would be medicore to weak even in the pre-Nu-Marine meta (helloooo Sisters!!). It's just an absence of balance. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Quasistellar wrote:
Wait, the Exorcist was nerfed? Seems like it was buffed to me?

We know that we usually "fast roll" saves and to-hits, which is just rolling everything that hits or saves on the same profile at the same time. Is there anything stopping you from just "fast rolling" all but one die every time you roll, and then determining whether or not to use a miracle die for that last die roll?

The exorcist now fires an average of 6 missiles and BS 3+ (S8 AP-3), as opposed to 3.5 missiles at BS 2+ with vessels (S8 AP-4) so more firepower and more reliable. It's also gone up 45 points and dropped from a 4++ to a 6++ in your typical army configuration - significant in that you'd typically lose one or more exorcists on the first turn even with the 4++, and now you've got 135 more points tied up in a whole lot less armour. Sisters can't fix or otherwise protect vehicles - no sacrificial cherubs sadly.

"before making a dice roll for a model or unit" - and as an additional limitation you can use a maximum of one dice per phase across all of your vehicles, characters, repentia, and jump infantry units and it must be the first you use that phase.
Though miracle dice in general could do with an FAQ, they've overcomplicated the restrictions from it's AoS incarnation.

Quasistellar wrote:
Wait, the Exorcist was nerfed? Seems like it was buffed to me?

Also, I think you might underestimating the strength of the miracle dice.

One thing I need clarified, though, regarding miracle dice (I don't have the codex):

We know that we usually "fast roll" saves and to-hits, which is just rolling everything that hits or saves on the same profile at the same time. Is there anything stopping you from just "fast rolling" all but one die every time you roll, and then determining whether or not to use a miracle die for that last die roll?

Oh and one other thing to consider:

Now that Sisters have an honest-to-goodness codex, they can have new model releases to fill in some gaps. There's already new units in the codex that don't even have models yet (unprecidented for GW lately!).

The Exorcist was nerfed, potentially massively. It now has 3d3 shots, but went up in points by a huge margin, from 125 points to 170 points [90 base, +70 for the launcher, +10 for the mandatory heavy bolter]. That is a very expensive +2.5 average shots. It also lost a point of AP, which is minor, but just feels like an extra slap given the size of the cost increase.

In addition, with a 3d3 roll, it's actually harder to fix, since you can't just re-roll the dice with a command re-roll if you roll poorly. It's less likely to do poorly in the first place, but if it does you're gak out of luck because re-rolling one of the three doesn't have the same impact. It also has like no support options anymore, having been excluded from the Shield of Faith boosters and all the Order traits only really providing benefits to infantry units. And, to make it worse, it's basically mandatory in a pure sisters army since it's the only weapon in the codex that can hit from our deploy area to theirs and take out critical targets of our choice in a timely fashion, especially because Dominions lost the ability to Vanguard their transports [not that the latter mattered anyway because of New!Marines].

As for Miracle Dice: one per phase, before you would make a roll, you may spend a Miracle dice to lock the result of that roll. You may replace both dice of the charge roll, but each shot is a separate hit roll so you can't make all your hits, well, hit.
As for what you suggested, fast rolling 3 and then using a miracle on the 4th after seeing the result is actually no different from using a miracle on the first and fast rolling 3. The miracle die is most useful for charges and for damage, when you need something to read like "I need at least one pass", you can guarantee that at least one passes. However, for something like to-hit rolls on a squad of meltaguns, or if you're taking 2 lascannons to the face and you need "less than X failures/as few as possible failures", a miracle dice doesn't have an significant effect.

There is a 1 CP stratagem to reroll Exorcist shot numbers if you ended up with a triple 1.
Obviously if it happens on all 3 you are a bit screwed, but the odds of that are quite low.

Offensively I think the output matches the expected outcome, and its certainly more consistent.
The problem is that the Exorcist got no defensive buffs for the big hike in points, and lost the ability (if you used it) to stack invuls. So they will die - and there is a difference between losing say two 125 point units and two 170 point units.

I feel people are thinking "isn't it amazing to have say 6s to slot into a D6 damage roll". Sure - we all know how frustrating rolling a 1 (and then CPing into another 1) is at that point. But you have to get the 6 in the first place and you only get one such upgrade per phase outside of certain buffs.
Sure its better to be able to say plug in a 4 rather than risk a 4+, but its not obviously dramatically altering outcomes as half the time you'd have got it. If you roll a bunch of 1s and 2s you have probably gained nothing, which may make an Ebon Chalice detachment mandatory in order to upgrade them to 6s.

I think its a potentially fun sort of system but its once per phase, versus say... rerolling a failed hit and wound on every unit every time they do anything. (I guess this would be the equivalent of a chapter tactic, but still, to put things in some context).

I think the idea miracle dice are going to carry sisters if the core book doesn't hold up is probably wrong. A guaranteed charge, and a guaranteed 6 damage (if you get some good scores or EC) are nice, but meta defining they ain't.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Wait, the Exorcist was nerfed? Seems like it was buffed to me?

Also, I think you might underestimating the strength of the miracle dice.

One thing I need clarified, though, regarding miracle dice (I don't have the codex):

We know that we usually "fast roll" saves and to-hits, which is just rolling everything that hits or saves on the same profile at the same time. Is there anything stopping you from just "fast rolling" all but one die every time you roll, and then determining whether or not to use a miracle die for that last die roll?

Oh and one other thing to consider:

Now that Sisters have an honest-to-goodness codex, they can have new model releases to fill in some gaps. There's already new units in the codex that don't even have models yet (unprecidented for GW lately!).

The Exorcist was nerfed, potentially massively. It now has 3d3 shots, but went up in points by a huge margin, from 125 points to 170 points [90 base, +70 for the launcher, +10 for the mandatory heavy bolter]. That is a very expensive +2.5 average shots. It also lost a point of AP, which is minor, but just feels like an extra slap given the size of the cost increase.

In addition, with a 3d3 roll, it's actually harder to fix, since you can't just re-roll the dice with a command re-roll if you roll poorly. It's less likely to do poorly in the first place, but if it does you're gak out of luck because re-rolling one of the three doesn't have the same impact. It also has like no support options anymore, having been excluded from the Shield of Faith boosters and all the Order traits only really providing benefits to infantry units. And, to make it worse, it's basically mandatory in a pure sisters army since it's the only weapon in the codex that can hit from our deploy area to theirs and take out critical targets of our choice in a timely fashion, especially because Dominions lost the ability to Vanguard their transports [not that the latter mattered anyway because of New!Marines].

As for Miracle Dice: one per phase, before you would make a roll, you may spend a Miracle dice to lock the result of that roll. You may replace both dice of the charge roll, but each shot is a separate hit roll so you can't make all your hits, well, hit.
As for what you suggested, fast rolling 3 and then using a miracle on the 4th after seeing the result is actually no different from using a miracle on the first and fast rolling 3. The miracle die is most useful for charges and for damage, when you need something to read like "I need at least one pass", you can guarantee that at least one passes. However, for something like to-hit rolls on a squad of meltaguns, or if you're taking 2 lascannons to the face and you need "less than X failures/as few as possible failures", a miracle dice doesn't have an significant effect.

It does seem handy that Exorcists benefit from Order Convictions now and I think the
Valorous Heart Order Conviction – Stoic Endurance: Ignore AP-1. Stacks with an Imagifier for ignore AP-2. In addition, models have a 6+++. could be useful?

The different flavours of marines should basically be treated as separate armies. Most armies have 1 maybe 2 variations of comp play. Each marine supplement is its own army and play style. Pooling them all as one really doesnt make sense from a comparison point of view as there are 6 supplements and therefore 6 different armies with different win rates.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

With only 2 "8.5" codices out, how would you know what the standard is?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

You're burying your head in the sand.

The marine book is OP, sure, but it's also written in a way that is significantly different than any other codex before it (doctrines, make your own chapter tactics, much wordier CTs).

Sisters are not even remotely OP but also is written differently than previous books (sacred rites and wordy order traits.)

It may not herald a new edition but it's definitely a new design paradigm for codexes.

As far as new mono-faction bonuses go, and other things such as no more 1/3 CP for relics. Sure. Those will probably be found in future Codexes. So again, perhaps Chaos Knights was the first 8.5 Codex, because it was the book that fully purged "old" re-rolls (if you don't count Vigilus Ablaze). Or perhaps Drukahri was the first 8.5 Codex, because it had 3-mini supplements in one book and some fancy stuff like the 6-Patrol Detachment Formation. Or perhaps GSC with their little blip mechanic. Or perhaps the Orks Codex was the first 8.5 Codex. That Deathskull trait is still wordier than anything in the Marines Codex.

New mechanics will come out and GW will continue to experiment with them. Sure.

But as far as the Marines significantly elevated "power level" being a conscious new "benchmark for balance" that books going forward will be balanced again and books before the Marine book don't have to be balanced against. No. For one, previous books weren't terribly well balanced to begin with. For another, it's just an incredibly OP book. 8.5 in the sense of "we've raised the floor of damage output we generally want armies to have in the game and all other armies will be balanced against Nu-Marines going forward (sorry GSC, just another short 2 years of waiting). That's not the case. It's just a broken book. Simples. Maybe there'll be another book in August 2020 or whatever that'll be even more broken. And surely there'll be a few books in the future that would be medicore to weak even in the pre-Nu-Marine meta (helloooo Sisters!!). It's just an absence of balance. Nothing more. Nothing less.

it seems to me you're diliberatly trying to confuse the issue. people refer to the marine codex for the same reason the 7th edition necron codex was seen as a "7.5" codex becausde it introduced changes that altered the design philophsy of codex design from ehre on out. we're going to see this continueing forward. maybe not as powerful but every new codex from now on will feature a mechanic that gifts some sort of bonus if your entire army is made up of X

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

You're burying your head in the sand.

The marine book is OP, sure, but it's also written in a way that is significantly different than any other codex before it (doctrines, make your own chapter tactics, much wordier CTs).

Sisters are not even remotely OP but also is written differently than previous books (sacred rites and wordy order traits.)

It may not herald a new edition but it's definitely a new design paradigm for codexes.

As far as new mono-faction bonuses go, and other things such as no more 1/3 CP for relics. Sure. Those will probably be found in future Codexes. So again, perhaps Chaos Knights was the first 8.5 Codex, because it was the book that fully purged "old" re-rolls (if you don't count Vigilus Ablaze). Or perhaps Drukahri was the first 8.5 Codex, because it had 3-mini supplements in one book and some fancy stuff like the 6-Patrol Detachment Formation. Or perhaps GSC with their little blip mechanic. Or perhaps the Orks Codex was the first 8.5 Codex. That Deathskull trait is still wordier than anything in the Marines Codex.

New mechanics will come out and GW will continue to experiment with them. Sure.

But as far as the Marines significantly elevated "power level" being a conscious new "benchmark for balance" that books going forward will be balanced again and books before the Marine book don't have to be balanced against. No. For one, previous books weren't terribly well balanced to begin with. For another, it's just an incredibly OP book. 8.5 in the sense of "we've raised the floor of damage output we generally want armies to have in the game and all other armies will be balanced against Nu-Marines going forward (sorry GSC, just another short 2 years of waiting). That's not the case. It's just a broken book. Simples. Maybe there'll be another book in August 2020 or whatever that'll be even more broken. And surely there'll be a few books in the future that would be medicore to weak even in the pre-Nu-Marine meta (helloooo Sisters!!). It's just an absence of balance. Nothing more. Nothing less.

it seems to me you're diliberatly trying to confuse the issue. people refer to the marine codex for the same reason the 7th edition necron codex was seen as a "7.5" codex becausde it introduced changes that altered the design philophsy of codex design from ehre on out. we're going to see this continueing forward. maybe not as powerful but every new codex from now on will feature a mechanic that gifts some sort of bonus if your entire army is made up of X

That's how I'd define 8.5. Though it seems gw are pushing chaos factions towards soup.

It is very obvious that the new Sisters of Battle Codex is a "8.5 Edition" or new design paradiem Codex. Looking at the broad strokes, it matches up nicely with the new Space Marines codex with improved and expanded quantity of Stratagems, updated Stratagem design, and the mono-faction bonus ability.

That being said, it is also obviously no Space Marine Codex in terms of power, yet alone Codex + Supplement.

I'm sure future codexes (and to some extend Codex + Psychic Awakening in some cases) will look like these two in terms of overall design.

Tyel wrote:There is a 1 CP stratagem to reroll Exorcist shot numbers if you ended up with a triple 1.
Obviously if it happens on all 3 you are a bit screwed, but the odds of that are quite low.

Offensively I think the output matches the expected outcome, and its certainly more consistent.
The problem is that the Exorcist got no defensive buffs for the big hike in points, and lost the ability (if you used it) to stack invuls. So they will die - and there is a difference between losing say two 125 point units and two 170 point units.

It's not even that, the cost increase is also way out of proportion for the additional firepower made available. Like, it's just not good.

Mr Morden wrote:
It does seem handy that Exorcists benefit from Order Convictions now and I think the
Valorous Heart Order Conviction – Stoic Endurance: Ignore AP-1. Stacks with an Imagifier for ignore AP-2. In addition, models have a 6+++. could be useful?

Yes, it can get Convictions, but only Valorous Heart actually does anything for it, and even then it's questionable. AP3+ is the word for most of the antitank guns in the game, basically except for the IG with all the Battle Cannon [but now Demolishers, so that doesn't really hold that well]. 6+++ is like 2 extra wounds. It's not aggressively doing nothing, like Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose or Martyred Lady.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So there has been a reasonable amount of discussion about Codex Space Marines v2 being the first of the 8.5 Codexes

Were Grey Knights the 5.5 of 5th Edition?

Was Screamerstar the 7.5 of 7th Edition?


That 8.5 talk is a bunch of non-sense from people unwilling to admit to themselves they enjoy playing with the broken goods.

Go rock a tournament with Iron Hand flyers or some Ravenguard Centurions and have fun. I do. Just be honest about what's going on.

I think the x.5 chatter comes from what happened in AoS right before 2.0 was released. A few months(4-5 months) before 2.0 was released there was an obvious uptick in the power of tomes that felt out of place at the time but did fit into the 2.0 paradigm better.

Also, I do believe that another reason for the 8.5 talk is that the Space Marine codex kinda represents what people were wishing for: boost to mono-armies, which very well could be the mark of the 8.5/9.0 cycle. This represents a certain paradigm change.

Ultimately it depends on what we'll see next year, whether PA does anything good for existing factions or if we see the next edition box. Too early to tell really. As has been mentioned this could just as well be GW screwing the pooch royally.

ccs wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

With only 2 "8.5" codices out, how would you know what the standard is?

3? now with sisters no?

 Eldarsif wrote:



I think the x.5 chatter comes from what happened in AoS right before 2.0 was released. A few months(4-5 months) before 2.0 was released there was an obvious uptick in the power of tomes that felt out of place at the time but did fit into the 2.0 paradigm better.

Also, I do believe that another reason for the 8.5 talk is that the Space Marine codex kinda represents what people were wishing for: boost to mono-armies, which very well could be the mark of the 8.5/9.0 cycle. This represents a certain paradigm change.

Ultimately it depends on what we'll see next year, whether PA does anything good for existing factions or if we see the next edition box. Too early to tell really. As has been mentioned this could just as well be GW screwing the pooch royally.

Ok. But than again, I think we need to differentiate between talking about

a) 8.5 in the sense of a conscious "uptick in power" and

b) 8.5 in the sense of introducing new mechanics


As for b), there have been some changes recently I certainly see going forward, though I think it is more of a gradual change that cannot be pinpointed entirely on Marines (e.g. more complex Chapter Tactics with Orks, introduction of unmodified instead of modified 1s or 6s to proc effects wtih Vigilus Ablaze, "full" re-rolls with Chaos Knights, mono-bonuses with Space Marines, etc..).

As for a), I don't think it's an intentional power-uptick conceptually above and beyond the "normal" powercreep we've seen (though certainly the worst we've seen in scope since probably 5th Edition Grey Knight, if not ever) ever since the first Marines Codex replaced their index entry. Just sometimes the jumps are more noticable (e.g. Knights, now Marines) and just as often some books miss the trend (Grey Knights in 2017, Space Wolves in 2018, now Sisters and the Eldar Psychic Awakening stuff in 2019, probably a Codex or two in 2020 as well).


So in summary. GW continuously introduces (and sometimes abandons, see Dark Eldar 6-Patrol-Detachment thing) mechanics on a rolling basis. There is no specific "shift" to a new "half-edition" and GW doesn't consciously change the power-floor on books, but produces books with wild variance in balance because they aren't writing 40K to be a mainly competitive game (as they may do with things like Shadespire?), so there's no factual basis for calling it "8.5".

 Tokhuah wrote:
I would like to see 8.5 rounded up and accompanied by a stratagem card burning.

The stratagem cards were an excellent way to manage all the myriad of unique mechanics they wanted to fit into gameplay.

The idea of matching their accessibility to Force Organizational requirements was also a great way to incentivize the types of armies GW envisioned as optimal for game play.

The unexpected failing was giving all the points up front, which exacerbated the other unexpected failing of Alpha Striking being so feasible in this edition. There are two models they appear to have experimented with to resolve this (by pacing access to them):

1. Kill Team system where CPs are generated per turn based on FOC/in-game criteria
2. Apocalypse where stratagems are randomly generated per turn on FOC/in-game criteria (people will always irrationally hate this)

I expect that the next edition will adopt one of the two above systems or some other pacing mechanism. But I don’t expect stratagems to go away entirely, they’re too great an idea.

Not Online!!! wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Are they equal and are they both 8.5 standard?

With only 2 "8.5" codices out, how would you know what the standard is?

3? now with sisters no?

CSM 1.1 doesn't count.