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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

This is my answer to Imp Fists, IH, and the rest of the meta's swing in the power armored direction. Now that I have made CA19 points adjustments, how shall I sharpen this up? Please correct if I've posted points incorrectly. This is for ITC tourney level matched play.

World Eaters battalion
Chaos Lord - Chain Axe
Chaos Lord - Chain Axe - upgrade to the GoreFather Axe ( in Psy-Awake: Fury, I think )

Bloodletters x20
Bloodletters x10
Bloodletters x10

World Eaters battalion
Dark Apostle
Dark Apostle
x9 Khorne Berserkers, Chain Axes x9, icon of Wrath
x9 Khorne Berserkers, Chain Axes x9, icon of Wrath
x9 Khorne Berserkers, Chain Axes x9

x5 Warp Talons (so cheap now!)
x5 Warp Talons

x3 rhinos

Night Lords Battalion
Sorcerer with Jump Pack, f-axe
Sorcerer with Jump Pack, f - stave
x10 cultists (on sale! 20% off! )
x10 cultists
x5 CSM

1930 in points. So, where to spend? Another x5 CSM that dies to wyverns or Eliminators? Upgrade some weapons, plasma pistol here or there? They're Night Lords, so they have a -1 Ld bubble.

IIRC, a Night Lord Sorcerer, *no* Jump Pack can't ride in a Khorne rhino. And Smite and the powers need mobility, so the wings the NL sorcerers shall keep. Do I shave points somewhere to bring in 75 points of Raptors, adding their leadership penalty to the Night Lords' leadership trashing-trait? With so much h2h going on, -3 and more leadership bubble might be all that's needed.

Daemon summoning ought to be easy. I've worked out how to disembark characters, turn 1, move & advance and have the rhinos protect them as much as possible. Yeah, eliminators, I know. But Mathhammer sez even 9 Elims should not kill 4 characters reliably in one turn. It's possible, but rather unlikely.

So Turn 2 threat over load:
No Overwatch Warp Talons will charge, 3 units of BLs will charge with +1 inch, and 2+ units of Khorne Bs with a rhino disembark and reroll charge. I figure most lists can kill a rhino and its contents in one turn's shooting. A 2nd rhino? Sure. But not the 2nd unit of Khorne Bs.

I see my list struggles to kill T7 vehicles & Knights, unless I can hit a vehicle with 2 or 3 units. S6 chain axes is going to wound on 5+ anyway. And then, VofLW to bring wound rolls back to 4+ ... on one unit.

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




First of summoning. You only got 70 points so another 10man letters I guess.

Second. Why not take a CD detachment with your letters so you can deep strike and give them 3D6 +1 on the charge?
Taking daemons in a csm detachment breaks the legion and your not having either locus or trait. You generally want 20man letters hitting your target but if just one dies you be hitting on 3+ and not 2+. So take a 30man is my recommendation.

Third. Why not have your warp Talons in NL detachment for deep strike, stratagem for 3D6 charge and deny overwatch.

Fourth. Why two apostles? -1 to hit rhinos or what? If they ride inside you can’t cast his prayers until next turn as it happens at the beginning of battle round. I would go with exalted champions for reroll failed wound rolls. This and VotLW on 9 zerkers will kill a Knight or make a serious dent in if.

Why no DP? They are brutal and if they get this reduced points even more so! A CD khorne DP with wings and relic skullreaver and you smash Knights like nothing!
Tau forgeworld KX139 got charge by mine this weekend and I rolled ok but not good, still did 18 wounds on it and 5 was MW despite his invul save.

Sorry if I’m too hard but it’s my opinion.
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Yorkshire

Yeah as Tazberry says there's a lot of this list that is upside down.

In addition to the above you really need to put ypur warp talons in your night lord detachment. They have the abilty to get a 3d6 charge and can stop a unit falling back. If you make them mark of khorne the work really well with a khorne daemon herald with the crimson crown. Gives them, +1 str, reroll charges and extra attacks on wound rolls of 6+ (5+ with veterans of the long war).

Also if you make one of those sorcerers a jump pack lord with two lightning claws, give him killing fury and rapacious talons and he'll get up to 15 attacks that'll kill iron hands and imperial fists for fun!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/02 18:36:00


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

Tazberry wrote:
First of summoning. You only got 70 points so another 10man letters I guess.

Second. Why not take a CD detachment with your letters so you can deep strike and give them 3D6 +1 on the charge?
Taking daemons in a csm detachment breaks the legion

Actually, in the FAQ, it doesn't.

Q: If I take a unit of DAEMONS in a Chaos Space Marines Detachment, do I lose my Legion Trait?
A:
Yes. However, if you summon a unit of DAEMONS and add them to your army, doing so does not affect your Legion Trait.

So, that isn't an issue. Thanks, though. (not being a douche)




Tazberry wrote:
and your not having either locus or trait. You generally want 20man letters hitting your target but if just one dies you be hitting on 3+ and not 2+. So take a 30man is my recommendation.

I ran the 30 BloodLetter bomb. It was great. The rest of that list sucked, but that's 18 months ago.


Tazberry wrote:
Third. Why not have your warp Talons in NL detachment for deep strike, stratagem for 3D6 charge and deny overwatch.
What is that Strategem and where is it?


Tazberry wrote:
Fourth. Why two apostles? -1 to hit rhinos or what? If they ride inside you can’t cast his prayers until next turn as it happens at the beginning of battle round. I would go with exalted champions for reroll failed wound rolls. This and VotLW on 9 zerkers will kill a Knight or make a serious dent in if.
The list has eveolved and you'll see shortly. You spotted the same things I did...

Tazberry wrote:
Why no DP? They are brutal and if they get this reduced points even more so! A CD khorne DP with wings and relic skullreaver and you smash Knights like nothing!
Tau forgeworld KX139 got charge by mine this weekend and I rolled ok but not good, still did 18 wounds on it and 5 was MW despite his invul save.

Sorry if I’m too hard but it’s my opinion.
Not too hard at all!

It's a Khorne Thread! An EF*********, FRAKKING KHRONE THREAD!!!!
Soft words are not spoken here.


That said, good input, await version 2.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I tossed the daemon summoning. And Night Lords. That hurt, as I wanna try their mechanics, but in learning a new army, simplifying things helps, less mechanics to learn. I've been playing sicky space elves for a very long time. And it was Daemons and CSM before that.

Battalion #1, World Eaters
Dark Apostle
Exalted Champ
Chaos Lord, Gorefather relic

3x9 Khrone Bs - Chain Axes & chainswords
x3 rhinos

Battalion #2, World Eaters
Dark Apostle
Exalted Champ
Chaos Lord, wings, Warlord trait Violent Urgency (+1 on the charge roll)

3x9 Khrone Bs - Chain Axes & chainswords
x3 rhinos

2x5 Warp Talons

1995

It's the Eliminators that I'm protecting against. Much of this army's buff comes from 2 of the 3 characters. So?
a. toss 2 characters, like the Chaos Lords and stick with the D.A.s and E.C.s. In ITC that helps pare down secondary objective points. This means adding ... heck, I dunno. 150+ points worth of something**
b. wings make the characters far more useful, but keeps them out of rhinos, making them vulnerable to Eliminator fire.



**One of you asked, "Why not a DP?"
A: Eliminators. My local meta is rife with them



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 small_gods wrote:
Yeah as Tazberry says there's a lot of this list that is upside down.

In addition to the above you really need to put ypur warp talons in your night lord detachment. They have the abilty to get a 3d6 charge and can stop a unit falling back. If you make them mark of khorne the work really well with a khorne daemon herald with the crimson crown. Gives them, +1 str, reroll charges and extra attacks on wound rolls of 6+ (5+ with veterans of the long war).
I had that DP in my daemons list, nearly 2 years ago. Yep, easily swats a Knight.

But this list seem to be rhino bound.

 small_gods wrote:
Also if you make one of those sorcerers a jump pack lord with two lightning claws, give him killing fury and rapacious talons and he'll get up to 15 attacks that'll kill iron hands and imperial fists for fun!
Psychic Awakening II? I ? Where are those rules?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/03 06:35:13


"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Yes that’s true. But your previous list included bloodletters in the detachment and thus breaking it. Summoned units are not included in the list as you choose unit after summoning roll.

The new stratagems and relics and warlord traits are in the “Faith and fury” book. You can just google it with chaos to get access too everything in it as it’s all spoilers. (Felt a bit cheated after buying it)


I like the new list. Simple and damn straight forward! WE warp talons will be great, it’s just more easy too make the charge in a NL.
If you want to save some points you can have a 20man zerkers and use WE new stratagem “forward operatives” (not the real name but can’t remember) to move 9” before battle begins just like alpha legions. It might not do you or your list any good but can be worth a thought.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

Tazberry wrote:
Yes that’s true. But your previous list included bloodletters in the detachment and thus breaking it. Summoned units are not included in the list as you choose unit after summoning roll.

Even though I'm dropping them at present, I'd still like to nail this concept down. For matched play, since the points need to be paid for, it just makes sense to be able to do this, and have the 3 BL units be part of a CSM detachment. Care to cite where it's stated in detachment or FoC that these can't count to a battalion?

Well, one of the LVO judges (and thus FLG/ITC judges) will be at the local game store. I'll see what he says.

Tazberry wrote:
The new stratagems and relics and warlord traits are in the “Faith and fury” book. You can just google it with chaos to get access too everything in it as it’s all spoilers. (Felt a bit cheated after buying it)

Yeah, the F&F rules are everywhere, but wouldja mind naming which one gets the Night Lords 3d6? For the last few nights, I've read through every online/pirate book/pdf, the ForgeWorlds, and such, so it's hard to remember where everything is.

I still didn't find where Hatefull Assault is actually stated as a thing, except Wahapedia**. This is kinda stupid to admit, but did a 2.0 ChaosSM codex get dropped this year? Cuz I have the one the was released 2 years ago and maybe that's why I'm not finding H.A.

Tazberry wrote:
I like the new list. Simple and damn straight forward! WE warp talons will be great, it’s just more easy too make the charge in a NL.

Wouldja please name the NL strat? I might be able to make a battalion or patrol work.


Tazberry wrote:
If you want to save some points you can have a 20man zerkers and use WE new stratagem “forward operatives” (not the real name but can’t remember) to move 9” before battle begins just like alpha legions. It might not do you or your list any good but can be worth a thought.

I read that one. But if going first doesn't happen, then that's an easy flush of 300+ points down the drain, as most Imp Fist, IH or other won't even blink to blow away 20 T4, 3+ 1W models. Heck, one 10 man crew of intercessors with the regular character buffs ought to do it to where total morale failure is a mathematical certainty. On ITC missions 2, 4 & 6, with the way deployment works, it'd be reasonable to use this, just sweating a "Seize the Initiative."


**Does Wahapedia actually count as *actual* rules? i don't think so because their point values aren't updated to the CA19. I mean, is GW actually running that site?

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




It the summoning rule. You build you list and have points over. Like building a 2000p list and only have 1500p in your army, so you can summon unit worth of 500 points. As you don’t know what you can summon until you make the roll. You make the roll and see what unit you want.

So, as the unit do not exist until you have made the summoning, you can’t include it in a list.


I don’t mind at all.
NL 3D6 charge is called “Raptor strike” and cost 1Cp
NL +2 too charge if you stand in terrain is called “From the night” for 1Cp
NL deny all but vehicle and titanic too fall back is called “We have come for you” for 1Cp

They are the best imo for NL.

Yeah they did release a codex 2.0 but it was the biggest letdown ever and you do not need it. It only got a few new daatasheets like Lord Discordant, greater possessed and Master of possession.
Hateful assault is in the new book F&F as are the rule “Malicious volleys” (same at bolter discipline).

Yeah I know. Your list vs your opponents and one unit of footsloging is not optimized but I just wanted to say that it exists. I’m thinking of using it but in alpha Legion as I then can make them untargeteble.

Just one thought. How are you going about shooting stuff in the air or on top of buildings? Can be hard to get them. I like the new list new. Blood for the blood god!!
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Yorkshire

Also NL have been handed one of the best stratergems in the game, vox scream. For 2 CP you can turn off all aura abilities from a unit. So you can turn that chapter master into an expensive tactical marine and apart from gsc and drukari there's nothing they can do about it!

My alpha legion warptalons are getting repainted this week!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

Tazberry wrote:
It the summoning rule. You build you list and have points over. Like building a 2000p list and only have 1500p in your army, so you can summon unit worth of 500 points. As you don’t know what you can summon until you make the roll. You make the roll and see what unit you want.
So, as the unit do not exist until you have made the summoning, you can’t include it in a list.

That's what I got from the LVO judges. It still seems like a dumb exception.


Tazberry wrote:

I don’t mind at all.
NL 3D6 charge is called “Raptor strike” and cost 1Cp
NL +2 too charge if you stand in terrain is called “From the night” for 1Cp
NL deny all but vehicle and titanic too fall back is called “We have come for you” for 1Cp

They are the best imo for NL.
... yer awesome.

Tazberry wrote:
Yeah they did release a codex 2.0 but it was the biggest letdown ever and you do not need it. It only got a few new daatasheets like Lord Discordant, greater possessed and Master of possession.

*That's* where disco lords came from. Okay.

Tazberry wrote:

Hateful assault is in the new book F&F as are the rule “Malicious volleys” (same at bolter discipline).
I found it in a big FAQ. And ... wait. CSM get bolter discipline? "Malicious Volleys" is scraping the barrel as far as bad names. Now they just need primaris 2W equivalents.

Tazberry wrote:
Yeah I know. Your list vs your opponents and one unit of footsloging is not optimized but I just wanted to say that it exists. I’m thinking of using it but in alpha Legion as I then can make them untargeteble.

Just one thought. How are you going about shooting stuff in the air or on top of buildings? Can be hard to get them.

I have not yet crossed that bridge. I only just scored 22 KBs out of the used model case and will be borrowing rhinos. Likely, if you want to keep up with this, I will get in many games for 3 weeks after Xmas. I get a 3 weeks teacher vacation. And can keep you in the loop.

Fliers? That might need to be addressed with Jumping hammer lords or Sorcerers (Smites, too). I don't fancy buying 2 Hell Turkeys.

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
 
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