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So, I heard a rumor from an unreliable source. It's obviously not real.

But it did start my noggin' a joggin' and I wondered....Star Wars seems like the type of SciFi universe that is just begging for an epic scale war game. Imagine it, platoons of clone troopers, with specialized heavy weapon teams, AT-TE walkers towering over the little troopers as they race across the strange terrain of Felucia towards the droid army. Storm Troopers on Hoth, Snow Speeders and Ties dog fighting in the skies and buzzing ground infantry. Weapon emplacements, tauntaun riders, ewoks, wookies and Jedi Knights leading the charge!

Why...why hasn't this been done yet? Hell you could even make it work with Armada so that you could have orbital strikes and blockade missions!

Market saturation.

Average guy with average income, like myself- I take a look at "Another large-scale wargame" and it's a hard pass. Smaller, skirmish games? Easier to get my money.

Because as much as the universe does that stuff well, the core experience is still largely focused on unique characters and there's just not a great way to represent Luke and Vader at that scale having a meaningful impact on the game.

At first I wanted something more like that out of Legion, but in playing it I think they mostly found a good middle ground. We're essentially just out AT-ATs and instead we get a lot more focus on heroes and the like.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Market saturation.

Average guy with average income, like myself- I take a look at "Another large-scale wargame" and it's a hard pass. Smaller, skirmish games? Easier to get my money.

I think it could easily be done without breaking wallets. Having the entire rule-set being free to the players, and then using campaign style books to bolster it would be super beneficial.

All armies get the core rules and their army rules for free in a Paper/PDF style. There are three positives to this model.

1. The Rules can be updated at very little cost to the company and zero cost to the player-base at any time. This has the added secondary benefit of making the game much easier to balance.
2. The Rules cost next to nothing for the company to produce.
3. The Rules do not serve as a barrier cost to players wanting to play the game.


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 LunarSol wrote:
Because as much as the universe does that stuff well, the core experience is still largely focused on unique characters and there's just not a great way to represent Luke and Vader at that scale having a meaningful impact on the game.

At first I wanted something more like that out of Legion, but in playing it I think they mostly found a good middle ground. We're essentially just out AT-ATs and instead we get a lot more focus on heroes and the like.

There is absolutely no reason such a game would need to feature the named heroes as playable models. There are other games, as you've stated, namely "legion" for that kind of experience. This is the game for people who want to command large forces of storm troopers, clone troopers, droids, rebels, and other mercenary forces. Any character representation could come in the form of some sort of command system where you pick a "general" and they give you some sort of positives/passives that you can use to design the play-style of your force.

An example of this might be that a Rebel force would choose Leia, and her "card" lets you do things like maneuver or bring down airstrikes. She might have some sort of passive force ability that allows you to change the roll of a critical die check or reroll it or something like that.

because 6-10mm doesn't seem a very popular scale outside of Historics, yes AT is doing okay but, as yet, doesn't really have anything smaller than regular mini sized Knights and there are a couple of others but given the slice the Mouse would want for a license its too risky

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
because 6-10mm doesn't seem a very popular scale outside of Historics, yes AT is doing okay but, as yet, doesn't really have anything smaller than regular mini sized Knights and there are a couple of others but given the slice the Mouse would want for a license its too risky

Do we have any data on this? Do company do any market testing to determine this, because I've been chatting about it all day and everyone I mention this too just says "That'd be dope, I'd buy it."

As this isn't an FFG game (nor does it even exist) it has been moved to the correct forum.

There was someone here working on a 6mm version based on epic, will see if I can find the thread.

Honestly I think that it could work really well since the prequel films. The original Trilogy didn't have huge battles, most of the fights are actually quite small. Hoth has about the biggest, but in general all the big fights are in space with spaceships - even then the first battle in a New Hope was very small scale with only a modest number of attack fighters against the Deathstar.


However the Prequel films had big ground battles in abundance and the latter films, whilst focusing more in space, still carry that air of big scale battles.



So yes I think it could work and honestly it might actually work rather well. Even though the 6-15mm scale of wargames isn't all that popular in general outside of historical games; the power of STARWARS might just create something that could last the test of time. It's an insanely powerful brand and could carry a product like that forward.

However at the same time with Armarda and Xwing and a few other scales the wargame market for SW might be getting swamped as it is. Ergo whilst it could float an "Epic" scale game, it could also trip over its own feet by saturating the market too much with too many iconic style games and the Epic scale could lose out. Like it or not big space battles and character battles in 32mm do prove to be very popular as general themes.



It would be very interesting to see how such a game could work. A bit like a scaled up "Starwars Battlegrounds" on tabletop.

If they went for 15mm they could even retain a sense of the heroes on the battlefield quite well as you can achieve good detail in that scale; whilst still having room for bigger things. However considering people would want affordable ATAT and such getting closer to 6mm might be more practical, even if infantry become a lot smaller they can still hold iconic detail and it means that bigger mechs and tanks can at least appear without being too big to be unaffordable or impractical to transport.





Honestly I feel like its a market sector ripe for the taking, however even GW is being really cautious about it. Most of the fantasy/scifi 6-15mm games I know of are nearly all "1 man and his caster" type affairs. With a few small companies here and there. In general its just not a big market; however I do wonder that without a big sci-fi/fantasy company pushing a title to make people aware of it; it could be that its simply a case that its small scale because no one has the money.


And yet at the same time the 15mm Joan of Arc KS has done really well - fantastically well - twice over. So clearly the scale does work for gamers. It might just be all it needs is exposure, a big enough brand to get the name out and to keep it out long enough t obuild its own market loyalty.
I think GW is doing this, but they are going slow and building it up in stages. A strong AT and AN series of games that stand on their own which might then build into a rebirth of Epic.

Not just the prequels, but there are numerous other war times the Old Republic was involved with in Legends. The Hyperspace War, the Revan Wars, and whatever wars SWtOR is happening.

As everyone mentioned, I don't think it would be viable to try and make a 40K normal game out of it, but Epic/Flames of War/Dropfleet scale might work out. It can be skirmish level of models while portraying the larger units that were involved.

 Charistoph wrote:
Not just the prequels, but there are numerous other war times the Old Republic was involved with in Legends. The Hyperspace War, the Revan Wars, and whatever wars SWtOR is happening.

As everyone mentioned, I don't think it would be viable to try and make a 40K normal game out of it, but Epic/Flames of War/Dropfleet scale might work out. It can be skirmish level of models while portraying the larger units that were involved.

The movies are the most important part though because the vast majority of fans will have never read a single book. Heck even in Warhammer where GW makes a LOT of marketing so that most customers are aware of the Black Library and its books, many still don't read them.

For many movies its interesting to note that whilst the film gets lots of advertising and the toys do; books, comics and such often get very little major marketing. They are out there and if you're into those segments you'll see them to buy, but if you dont' go looking you won't find them marketed heavily. Heck for many films the book that its based off gets almost no mention at all. Lord of the Rings was almost an exception - meanwhile many other films are made based off books and the books hardly get a nod.

So I'd say that if you want your market to identify with material produced then basing it off the films is the most important aspect because that's the point which most will connect too. Basing it off a comic or book series is nice for an expansion content, but not as the core part of the product. So I'd expect to see something like the Clone Wars driods; stormtroopers and such rather than Mandalorians (even though the latter are gaining more traction now with the TV series).

I've seen big convention games using the ERTL Battle of Hoth set.

 Overread wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Not just the prequels, but there are numerous other war times the Old Republic was involved with in Legends. The Hyperspace War, the Revan Wars, and whatever wars SWtOR is happening.

As everyone mentioned, I don't think it would be viable to try and make a 40K normal game out of it, but Epic/Flames of War/Dropfleet scale might work out. It can be skirmish level of models while portraying the larger units that were involved.

The movies are the most important part though because the vast majority of fans will have never read a single book. Heck even in Warhammer where GW makes a LOT of marketing so that most customers are aware of the Black Library and its books, many still don't read them.

For many movies its interesting to note that whilst the film gets lots of advertising and the toys do; books, comics and such often get very little major marketing. They are out there and if you're into those segments you'll see them to buy, but if you dont' go looking you won't find them marketed heavily. Heck for many films the book that its based off gets almost no mention at all. Lord of the Rings was almost an exception - meanwhile many other films are made based off books and the books hardly get a nod.

So I'd say that if you want your market to identify with material produced then basing it off the films is the most important aspect because that's the point which most will connect too. Basing it off a comic or book series is nice for an expansion content, but not as the core part of the product. So I'd expect to see something like the Clone Wars driods; stormtroopers and such rather than Mandalorians (even though the latter are gaining more traction now with the TV series).

Heck, most of what I referenced was never in a normal print book, but video games and comic books. A good third of what is seen in X-Wing comes from that Legends material like that, and only a little bit comes from regular print books (hard to say with stuff like Xizor's Star Viper being in both book and video game, and was considered Canon before Disney).

Still, I wouldn't start with the Revan Wars, for example, but just view it as a later expansion route.

The biggest issue with doing an epic-scale game is that any game has to start with the original trilogy, and you can't really do massed battles with vast hordes and giant armoured vehicles when one team is an insurgency with little to no ground-based motor pool.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The biggest issue with doing an epic-scale game is that any game has to start with the original trilogy, and you can't really do massed battles with vast hordes and giant armoured vehicles when one team is an insurgency with little to no ground-based motor pool.

Why do you have to start with the OT? Bioware didn't, and it worked out pretty well for them.

I say "have to" because all the Star Wars miniatures games I've seen have started that way, though as they're mostly FFG it may be FFG's preference.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The biggest issue with doing an epic-scale game is that any game has to start with the original trilogy, and you can't really do massed battles with vast hordes and giant armored vehicles when one team is an insurgency with little to no ground-based motor pool.

No they don't. There is literally no reason you would have to stop with OT. KToR is one of the most beloved games ever made, setting the game in the GR era to start would be perfectly fine.

You can write new cannon for the rebels to give them all kinds of things from looted Imperial tech to totally new sets of units. Star Wars takes place in a whole galaxy, just because 9 movies haven't taken he time to detail all of the things available doesn't mean we can't have them in these types of games.

 Togusa wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The biggest issue with doing an epic-scale game is that any game has to start with the original trilogy, and you can't really do massed battles with vast hordes and giant armored vehicles when one team is an insurgency with little to no ground-based motor pool.

No they don't. There is literally no reason you would have to stop with OT. KToR is one of the most beloved games ever made, setting the game in the GR era to start would be perfectly fine.

You can write new cannon for the rebels to give them all kinds of things from looted Imperial tech to totally new sets of units. Star Wars takes place in a whole galaxy, just because 9 movies haven't taken he time to detail all of the things available doesn't mean we can't have them in these types of games.

Then there is the intermediate period between Episode 6 and Episode 7 while the New Republic is becoming a power and the Empire is withering up till Jakku.

Also consider, Star Wars: Empire at War did exactly this, both on an Armada level and Epic Legion level. It was pretty dang good, too, (though, I hated doing ground missions, they never clicked with me like the space ones).

The real choice isn't where you start it is if you stick to a single timeline or if you mish-mash it.

Ergo no matter if you're in the Original, the Prequels or the Sequels you'll be inventing new stuff to go on the battlefield anyway. Do you stick to that time slot or do you advance and mix up the armies so that eventually you've got Clone troopers fighting New Order Stormtroopers.

The technology level remains fairly level over the series (if anything the original almost seems a step behind both the prequel and the sequels). However it is odd when you've basically got Clone to Storm to New Order all being technically the same force evolving.

Any epic scale game from FFG needs to be in scale with X-Wing.

Why?

Because I want my fleet of U-Wings, TIE Reapers, etc. to be the battle taxis they are, quickly deploying squads and fireteams to reinforce my troops.

Because I want my fleet of Y-Wings and TIE Bombers to provide close air support and bombing missions against the enemy lines.

Because I want my Imperial Assault Carrier to carry and deploy a pair of AT-ATs to the front line.

 Togusa wrote:

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 LunarSol wrote:
Because as much as the universe does that stuff well, the core experience is still largely focused on unique characters and there's just not a great way to represent Luke and Vader at that scale having a meaningful impact on the game.

At first I wanted something more like that out of Legion, but in playing it I think they mostly found a good middle ground. We're essentially just out AT-ATs and instead we get a lot more focus on heroes and the like.

There is absolutely no reason such a game would need to feature the named heroes as playable models. There are other games, as you've stated, namely "legion" for that kind of experience. This is the game for people who want to command large forces of storm troopers, clone troopers, droids, rebels, and other mercenary forces. Any character representation could come in the form of some sort of command system where you pick a "general" and they give you some sort of positives/passives that you can use to design the play-style of your force.

An example of this might be that a Rebel force would choose Leia, and her "card" lets you do things like maneuver or bring down airstrikes. She might have some sort of passive force ability that allows you to change the roll of a critical die check or reroll it or something like that.

My point is Star Wars as a brand is built on these larger than life heroes and always has been. Conflicts in it have never really been that large and even when they HAVE been, everything important in them have been done by a handful of heroes. It's just never been a franchise where battles are decided by faceless mobs, even when the main characters of the story where literal clones vs assembly line robots.

Wasn't the entire Clone Wars faceless mobs VS heroic Jedi - and the mobs won.

Plus you somewhat overlook all the original battles - sure characters play a key role, but the vast majority of fighting is done by the grunts. The Battle at Hoth; the Fight for the second Deathstar etc.....

There's loads of epic space and ground battles (more space than ground) where there's loads of ways to have battles whilst having Vader on the table or not. Have you ever played Starwars Battlegrounds? That game had a few of the heroes, but the majority was an "Age of Empiers" style wargame.

You could probably have a really good Clone Wars 6mm scale Epic game. (6mm scale is mostly to include X-Wing Clone Wars-era ships) Pretty big armies with lots of ground vehicles. Jedi and others could be HQ units that either hit harder in melee or buff units around them. At 6mm warfare scale adding, say, Obi-Wan to a Clone Troopers unit in 40k-epic style would just be a modest melee buff and a morale boost. Jedi are only powerhouses in skirmish battles where a lightsaber and force powers are a big deal, while in large battles the reality is that they can just get shot by lots of incoming fire, Order 66-fashion.

From my limited data on wargaming sales, there is not a huge market for Sci-fi at this scale.

I would recommend trying it yourself with Horizon Wars, Sci-Fi Commander, Planetfall, Halo Ground Battles, Rampant Galaxies, or a similar game.

You will notice almost all of these games are defunct or have no dedicated miniature line..... there is a reason.

It's pretty much been nailed, but epic scaled games never sell as well as their 28-32mm counterparts. They have never sold on par with them in my 25+ years of wargaming. That's not to say they're not doable, or that people don't buy them...but it's simply not anywhere near as popular.

For someone to make a quality game like that they'd have to be doing so with limited expectations of sales - and that puts FFG right out. They only bother with big-profit projects and dump them the second they start to falter.

If miniatures were available (and with 3D printing they basically should be by now), you'd be better off with a dedicated fan or group of fans writing a homebrew set. You feeling up to the task?

There's no reason you can't have big battles during the original trilogy era. The Solo movie shows us that there were one-off planet quellings conducted by the Empire, and the legends materials has instances of the Empire fomenting planets to attack one another (and in one case, sending "advisors" and arms to assist one side). There would have been also worlds to be reabsorbed (or rediscovered) lost during the Clone Wars era, and any of them could have contained a PDF force that had no interest in being conquered by the Empire.

These one-off quellings/reabsorptions/rediscoveries probably had little direction or involvement from the larger Rebellion other than a small "loaned" rebel contingent or advisors - or may have even just been sparked by rebel agitators.

Yeah, you don't have a galactic empire of evil dudes go unopposed by gigantic armies (entire worlds defense forces, etc.). The reason you didn't see anything that "huge" in the original Trilogy was simple budget reasons. No reason to imagine there weren't large scale engagements, etc. The fact that the Empire had such large forces to deploy can only be justified by the expectation of strong armed resistance across the galaxy.

I'd also argue that by a A New Hope the Empire had reached a point of crushing most of the larger armies against them on the ground. They'd even extended the boarders into regions like the Hutt territories (remember in Phantom Menace the Hutts were in charge not the Republic). However its clear that the Empire was on somewhat of a knife-edge with many worlds being held by ground forces and likely recent defeats (either their own or neaby systems).

So it was likely a period of relative peace on the ground, with potential to boil over. So instead of focusing on more ground forces the Emperor goes for the Death Star approach. With a Galactic Empire the Emperor can destroy multiple worlds before the central powerbase really feels any impact. So fear would keep many worlds in-line.

The Imperial Fleet was also clearly being scaled up so that different worlds wouldn't be able to combine ground forces easily.



However I'm sure that during the whole original Trilogy there were more attacks like those at Hoth on different worlds. Just by worlds acting on their own; or factions within worlds. Rather than a united Alliance force. So a world might try to fight for its own release, but only the Alliance was really able to take the fight to the Empire.

Honestly, I feel like Armada is the closest thing to an epic scale wargame that would work for star wars. Apart from the AT-AT's star wars really doesn't do epic on the ground. It's always been grand space battles with capital ships and fighter squadrons. rather than large coordinated ground assaults. Clone Wars had large ground assaults but even those can pretty easily be recreated at the Star Wars: Legion scale I feel like.

 Stormonu wrote:
There's no reason you can't have big battles during the original trilogy era. The Solo movie shows us that there were one-off planet quellings conducted by the Empire, and the legends materials has instances of the Empire fomenting planets to attack one another (and in one case, sending "advisors" and arms to assist one side). There would have been also worlds to be reabsorbed (or rediscovered) lost during the Clone Wars era, and any of them could have contained a PDF force that had no interest in being conquered by the Empire.

These one-off quellings/reabsorptions/rediscoveries probably had little direction or involvement from the larger Rebellion other than a small "loaned" rebel contingent or advisors - or may have even just been sparked by rebel agitators.

Canonically, the Galactic Civil War becomes a full scale war following the Battle of Yavin, but its very poorly explored in the majority of published material thus far, only the novel Twilight Company really picks up on it in any real detail - the book mentions dozens of battles across the galaxy, names a bunch of rebel military units (units like the Sixy-Eight Infantry, Sixty-First Mobile Infantry, Thirty-Second Infantry, etc.) and a large scale Alliance offensive (called the Mid Rim Offensive, and later the Mid Rim Retreat) in which the Alliance military conducted a 9 month offensive into the Mid Rim from their holdings in the Outer Rim with "thousands of ships" and "hundreds of battle groups" and captured and held a significant number of planets before becoming overstretched and being forced to retreat due to an Imperial counterattack.

The alliance never really had parity in terms of size and strength with the Imperial forces and weren't ever really able to go toe-to-toe, but thats not to say that fighting didn't occur openly or in a conventional sense, just that the Alliance was largely on the back foot for most of the war until the Imperial defeat at the Battle of Endor threw them into disarray and caused a more widespread uprising that was able to bring the war to a quicker end.

Yeah, the loss of Palpatine's Battle Meditation really screwed up fleet and ground troops. At least, according to Timothy Zahn's report through Thrawn.