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As a small business owner (restaurant) I am starting to have problems with my employees that smoke/vape, and on a number of levels. By the books (and the law here) you are not allowed to smoke inside or within 15 feet of any entrance to a business. In the winter the vaping crowd tries to get away with it in our dry storage area. Smokers really can't hide that well. The larger problem is the number of smoke breaks people take. As a group they are averaging 3 smoke breaks in a 5 hour shift, averaging about 10 minutes a piece, while on the clock. Now, I'm not exactly a prude, but I find that excessive. That's literally 10% of their work time smoking.
I am considering amending our rules, are any of the following out of line?
1. Any indoors vaping could lead to a suspension
2. Smoke before or after work or on your break period. If working a 5-hour shift you will get one 8-minute smoke break at the manager's discretion.
3.Smoke breaks will be unpaid.
I've mentioned these ideas and was threatened with a mass exodus of smokers if I enact them. However, it's really not fair to the non-smoking crowd as they don't get extra time off.
cuda1179 wrote: As a small business owner (restaurant) I am starting to have problems with my employees that smoke/vape, and on a number of levels. By the books (and the law here) you are not allowed to smoke inside or within 15 feet of any entrance to a business. In the winter the vaping crowd tries to get away with it in our dry storage area. Smokers really can't hide that well. The larger problem is the number of smoke breaks people take. As a group they are averaging 3 smoke breaks in a 5 hour shift, averaging about 10 minutes a piece, while on the clock. Now, I'm not exactly a prude, but I find that excessive. That's literally 10% of their work time smoking.
To a degree, I'd advice to remember that working in a restaurant is stressful as feth. Costumers can be donkey-caves. Fellow employees can be donkey-caves. Owners can be donkey-caves. That's not to call you an donkey-cave, it's just that I think it's important to remember that the food service industry is a really stressful one. Anyone who has ever worked in it for even a small amount of time realizes that fast, and smokers often use smoking as stress relief. It's worth considering, does the amount of time people spend smoking negatively impact you? Does it negatively impact you more than pushing stressed employees harder? I'm guessing you've probably already thought of some of this somewhere in your mind, but as someone who worked in a restaurant once upon a yonder I feel like it should be stated.
The job sucks sometimes, even when it's a good job. I'm not a smoker, but I've never held the need to get some relief as it were against my fellows. I get it.
1. Any indoors vaping could lead to a suspension
Honestly, I think this is generous.
If I walked into a restaurant and saw employees smoking in the place that prepares and serves my food I'd want to leave. I don't smoke. I don't even like places with designated smoking sections because the smell gets everywhere. I certainly don't want that residue anywhere near my food. Smoking is for outside, not anywhere where that gak might get onto something I'm paying to eat.
If I owned an eatery, and I saw an employee smoking near food/customers I'd start counting strikes. Three and gone. That's me though, and I've certainly never run a restaurant so my two cents.
2. Smoke before or after work or on your break period. If working a 5-hour shift you will get one 8-minute smoke break at the manager's discretion.
I think this is fair. I get that smokers get the shakes and what not, but being asked to take care of your fix before and after work, or smoke on your break, is very reasonable in my eyes. Maybe make it more clear? 1 Smoke break for every 3-4 hours someone works (covers any ambiguity if someone works more than five hours, I don't know if that happens in your business much)
3.Smoke breaks will be unpaid.
Eh. It's eight minutes. I think that's a little stingy, not to mention do you really want to keep track of that and fight anyone over it if they say "you took 8 minutes of my pay for Tuesday but I didn't take a smoke break that day?" I'd just take those eight minutes and write it off. It's eight minutes. If someone is adhering to the rule in #2 and isn't being a problem, I see no need to add this. It'll just cause friction.
I've mentioned these ideas and was threatened with a mass exodus of smokers if I enact them. However, it's really not fair to the non-smoking crowd as they don't get extra time off.
That's your bluff to call. My bet is some will follow through and other's won't. If they do, well that's your ball to handle. 3 I think is unnecessary, but 1 is very generous (no smoking around the food you're serving to people and the people you're serving, how the feth is that controversial?) and 2 is reasonable imo.
My poorly educated thoughts on the issue as someone who worked at an Olive Garden 10+ years ago XD
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/31 02:07:19
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
In most places in the US, it is the law that you cannot smoke inside a place of business. Particularly Restaurants. And many states go further and say you can't smoke within a certain distance of any entrances, though in all cases the distance is way too short IMO.
In CA its no smoking within 20 ft of any entrance. Where I work we mandate an even further 50 ft.
2nd hand smoke is as bad as smoking it yourself, so anybody who is smoking is putting people around them at just as much risk. Especially fellow employees who are always exposed to it. Customers only get exposed for a small period and can leave. Employees will be forced to endure it every time you smoke.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
A regular smoker can probably handle 2 hrs between cigs. It’s fair to expect people to smoke on their breaks. A pair of 15 minute breaks through a relatively short 5 hr shift should suffice to take care of that. I assume they have paid breaks.
Regarding smoking / vaping indoors, make it policy that you can’t. No exceptions. Escalate on a three-strike basis. 1st, warning. 2nd, suspended without pay. 3rd, termination. That’s a pretty fair policy.
Create a designated smoking area. That is clearly marked. In Ontario, it can’t be enclosed, but 3/4 walls and a partial roof would keep most smokers quite happy, and keep them the required distance from doors.
I don't work in a restaurant, but I do know it always p*sses me off when smoking colleagues get extra free breaks to enable their addiction. On a previous job I made a point of it to go for a coffee break every time my smoker colleagues went for a cigarette, but they were smoking excessively. I wouldn't make as much of an issue of a few minutes in 5 hours.
As someone that does smoke, they need to learn some self control.
I get 2 breaks a day, 1x 30 min for lunch then a 15 min break in the evening.
Edit: to clarify, this is also on an 11 hour shift.
If I work overtime we get a 10 min break per 2 hours extra worked.
As a smoker, you use the breaks given and don’t expect extra ones.
I’ll literally have one before work, one at lunch, one at break then one when I click off.
They also shouldn’t be smoking anywhere near the place.
As a side note, is there a smoking area provided?
If so, they should be using that no matter what.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/31 10:09:38
I'm not a smoker but used to work in an office with quite a lot of them. The regular smoke breaks became such an issue for the non-smokers that the company eventually had to take action to limit the number of smoke breaks. Some people were taking up to 5-6 smoke breaks a day, in addition to their regular breaks/lunch. That gets pretty annoying pretty quickly. It was a slow escalation over many months, with more and more breaks being taken but eventually it got completely out of hand.
My own advice (which is not legal advice in any way) would be to be absolutely sure you're sticking within the law in your locality, which may mean properly enforcing certain rules (smoking in the restaurant building being the main one) and not being able to enforce others.
Personally, I think if anyone's smoking habits require them to take extra breaks and time off they need to take a long, hard look at their own circumstances and lack of self-control. It's their choice to smoke and they need to take the consequences of that decision so if they can't go for 4 hours without a cigarette that's on them, not you as the employer. They have breaks the same as everyone else and what they do with them is up to them, but I don't see why they should get any special treatment due to their own personal habits.
As a non-smoker who was pretty much the only one in a group of smokers, I fully support them having two designated smoke breaks - over the course of an eight/nine hour shift, you get one in between the start and lunch break, and another between the lunch break and end of shift. Depending on how easy it is to clock out mid-shift, you could ask them to clock out when they do it, but only if it's easy and quick to do.
Similarly though, non-smokers should have the same rest benefits.
But where they smoke is definitely a problem, they definitely need distance on that.
Just for a little clarification, my state's anti-smoking laws came out right before the vaping craze hit. It was determined the laws, in general, don't apply to vaping. So, technically, you can still vape indoors, just not in a food prep area. We have a smoking area outdoors, not that it's all that great.
And yes, I am liable for any employee or customer that smokes in my business, and the fine is rather hefty.
I think the thing that bothers me is that smoker/vapers don't understand how annoying their habit is. I have an employee (non smoker) that gets a ton of crap from other employees for being technically late habitually. If you schedule him at 11, you can set your clock to him entering the store at 11:03. This really doesn't bother me as when he gets there he is in "game-on" mode. He jumps in, puts his nose to the grindstone, and busts butt. Many of the people that complain about him will show up 5 minutes early, stroll about for 5 minutes, chit-chat for a while, and 20 minutes into a shift go for a smoke. The irony is lost on them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/31 12:28:32
At my day job, a few years back they started a policy of not hiring smokers anymore, and any new hires from that date forward if they're caught smoking anywhere near the office they can (but won't) be fired... but people who were here before that get grandfathered in and are allowed to smoke at 1 designated area outside.
All employees get an off the clock lunch and 2 10 minute breaks on the clock, so you're only allowed to smoke on those break times. But, the old smokers here don't care and spend sometimes a half our outside smoking and chatting, I see the same folks outside my window all the time.
Also, the company offers a $1000 bonus to people who quit smoking for a year or more. I dunno how they can tell because someone could just smoke at home, but still. There's a few folks I know who quit and got the bonus.
Personally I hate smoking with a passion, lung cancer has killed many people I care about. I know some people are addicted and can't help it, but when people just don't care about how it effects others it really annoys me. Like smoking right by windows and doorways, leaving butts all over the place, and generally being slobs. I just can't stand the stench of cigarettes, I don't mind vaping as much since it doesn't smell bad.
Most of my boomer aged coworkers tend to take a smoke break every hour or two for ten minutes. The younger kids that vape do the same thing - however they sneak it in the bathroom/side offices frequently. People arent sneaking cigs in the bathroom - this is just the people who vape.
We also offer a bonus police of around $1000 or so for quitting smoking and having your manager sign off that you did/vouches for you/you have to also claim you stopped smoking when you re-up your benefits.
You're supposed to take the elevator down and stand in a small smoking section behind the building.
As you mention, smoke breaks are unfair to non-smokers. You need to redefine your break policy for everyone. Personally I'd suggest a 10min break every 2 hrs (paid break) for every employee. Working people need an opportunity to eat something and keep their energy levels up. If they choose to smoke rather than eat, that's on them.
As to smoking/vaping indoors or in the food prep areas, I suggest you consult a labor lawyer and adhere to the law. Explain to the employees what the law is and that following the laws is not negotiable.
if smokers are taking breaks that non smokers don't you either need to stop them, allow the non smokers to take a break too or adjust their pay (deduction from the smokers or a bonus to the non smokers with employees formally registering themselves as one or the other)
as a non smoker I've worked where the smokers started taking more and more breaks for longer and longer and ducking more and more work until things really blew up
(since smokers often run off together to smoke & chat you also risk being short handed with the non smokers having a harder job than they should trying to cover things so even unpaid breaks can cause a lot of friction)
Your insurance may also be effected if your aware of smokers sneaking cigarettes inside/too close to the building where they should be and don't make a formal effort to stop them
but at the end of the day do what your legally obliged to, and then what you think you have to to staff your business
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: as a non smoker I've worked where the smokers started taking more and more breaks for longer and longer and ducking more and more work until things really blew up
This is my office 100%. The guys who vape sort of just take a hit and walk back up immediatly or from the bathroom. The Smokers spend an hour or so a day combined
idling and talking/smoking.
I work with a bunch of smokers and we don't have any problems.
HOWEVER.
Our employer has a STRICT break policy. One hour for lunch, two fifteen minute breaks. Take longer and that is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including termination. Smoking policy is equally strict: Here's the smoking area, smoking anywhere else is forbidden and grounds for disciplinary action up to and including termination. Smoking in the bathrooms is one and done; you get caught and you're fired on the spot.
Anyone who can't abide by those rules gets fired. And guess what? People almost always abide by those rules, and the ones who can't seem to screw up more than just breaks and smoking, so they're not missed when they're gone.
My work recently banned smoking anywhere on site, and the site is huge so most people would have to walk 5 to 10 minutes to get somewhere they’re allowed to smoke. You do still get some persistent folk who find nooks and crannies to smoke in, but lack of options has definitely killed off a lot of the smoking.
But anyway, we get 1hr of paid breaks in a shift, but it’s flexible so some people take more or less and adjust their clock off time appropriately for any unpaid breaks or reduction in paid breaks. Our group generally starts at 7, takes a half hour break at 9:30, half hour lunch at 12 or 12:30, then knock off shortly after 3.
I think breaks every ~2.5 hours is pretty reasonable, whether they’re paid or not just comes down to how you define it, as long as you’re getting X working hours per shift and breaks aren’t interrupting workflow.
When the work load is heavy we have the opposite problem, where people work more than 5 hours in a row which they aren’t allowed to do according to their contract. You end up with people having to step in and tell them they aren’t allowed to work until they’ve taken a half hour break.
In Australia the morning break at 9:30 (for folk who start at 7am) is called “smoko” even though most people don’t smoke anymore. So much so that these bozos made a song about it...
EDIT: Actually my mistake, our breaks aren’t paid, rather they’re mandated, so you only get paid for the hours you work, but within those hours you should take meal breaks, so that when you submit a time sheet it says “time including 1hr breaks”. The idea being you can’t be asked and shouldn’t be forcing yourself to work the full shift without breaks, even though they aren’t paid.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/01 03:55:26
A place I used to work at had a guy that took three 10 minute smoke breaks a day (so 2.5 hrs a week). He received numerous warnings and then got the boot
We also have a separate epidemic not related to smoking but people taking 15-20 minute "poops", playing on their cellphones the whole time. I think they eat up more of the clock than the smokers do, to be honest.
We had a dude that would vanish from our kitchen randomly. He'd sometimes ask if he could smoke, but most of the time he'd simply ghost. The Staff Sergeant would walk in and ask where he was, and my snide reply was "if he's not in the smoke pit, he's on the pot." Sad thing was I was only wrong once and that was because he got pulled for paperwork.
My current employer has three paid break periods: 10 for break, 20 for lunch, 10 for break. No extra for cancer sticks. Works out well for us.
Necros wrote: We also have a separate epidemic not related to smoking but people taking 15-20 minute "poops", playing on their cellphones the whole time. I think they eat up more of the clock than the smokers do, to be honest.
There was a guy at my job who would take 45 minute poops. We commented the other day that he's been gone for years, but this is now what everyone remembers him for.
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Odd question here, but how long does it take the "average" person to poop? In general I poop once per day, half the time that's at work. It takes about 8 to 10 minutes.
I reckon smokers should just smoke in their breaks like everyone else. Never understood why they think smoking entitles them to extra breaks that are not afforded to other people.
That said, I think breaks are good for workers and good for productivity. So I am not against people having breaks and doing what they want with that time, but it needs to be organised so that it is fair on everyone.
Any time you change working conditions to make them a bit worse for workers, they can walk. That is their right. So if you lose employees over this, then that is how it is gonna be.
You say you are unhappy with these smokers behaviour, and they say they'll walk if made to do the work their actually paid for. Seems them walking out would be an absolute win for you? ... assuming none of them are irreplaceable. Just make sure you go about it legitimately.
Also make sure you show sympathy to the smokers who indulge their habbit in an uninterruptive way. I tell you now, some of the 'responsible' smokers will have disdain for the 'irresponsible' ones.
nareik wrote: You say you are unhappy with these smokers behaviour, and they say they'll walk if made to do the work their actually paid for. Seems them walking out would be an absolute win for you? ... assuming none of them are irreplaceable. Just make sure you go about it legitimately.
Also make sure you show sympathy to the smokers who indulge their habbit in an uninterruptive way. I tell you now, some of the 'responsible' smokers will have disdain for the 'irresponsible' ones.
The problem with replacing my smokers is that I'm all ready having problems getting employees, and so is everyone else in the community. The percentage of high school kids that want to be employed has dropped like a rock in the last 10 years. The average applicant is some combination of half-stupid, functional drug abuser, felon, been fired from 6 jobs in the last year, or 60 year-old trying to put in enough working ours to collect full Social Security. Now, don't get me wrong, I think felons SHOULD have a second chance and I'm not going to discriminate against the elderly, but I do have to consider if they can physically handle the job and the safety of my employees. My crew is currently in a state where I need to schedule half the crew (good employees) to basically babysit the sub-par ones during any given shift. Smokers almost have me over a barrel right now.
AND to add another wrinkle to this debacle, the legal smoking/vaping age was just raised to 21. By law I can not allow anyone under the legal smoking age to have a smoke break, smoke on my property, or smoke while on the clock. This means that a few of my 18-19 year old employees will be banned from smoking during any part of their shift, and I'll have to enforce it.
Necros wrote: I don't mind vaping as much since it doesn't smell bad.
Vaping is worse IMO. Obnoxious bubblegum scented clouds that are bigger than what the average Shanghai factory pumps out that linger on everything and give me headaches. Utterly disgusting stuff and I cannot wait for long term studies to show how bad they are for you and this stupid trend can all go die in a fire. Yes, I fething hate vapers of all kinds. At least smokers tend to have a little bit of consideration for who is around them when puffing away; but no, not these vapey bois.
It's part of the reason I won't go to the games night in one of our FLGSs as he allows vaping inside.
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If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
AND to add another wrinkle to this debacle, the legal smoking/vaping age was just raised to 21. By law I can not allow anyone under the legal smoking age to have a smoke break, smoke on my property, or smoke while on the clock. This means that a few of my 18-19 year old employees will be banned from smoking during any part of their shift, and I'll have to enforce it.
Thing is finding employees for a business is a lot easier than restarting a business after you get shut down/fined for breaching heath codes because your staff were vaping/smoking within the restricted zone and any additional legal issues as a result of knowing allowing underage people to vape/smoke during work hours.
I think you've got to take a hard line. Many times hard, but fair boundaries are a lot easier for people to work with than hazy ones that flex and move around. Plus at the most bare minimum you've got to go with the law otherwise its your whole business on the line and potentially down the drain.
Also don't forget many people bluster but when they ask themselves if a smoke is REALLY worth their pay cheque then many back down. Some might storm out and come back a day later once they've cooled off.
