Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let's say there's a group of four or five "top" nobs and their warboss gets himself killed.

Each of the four nobs thinks he should be the next boss. Are there ANY rules?

Can one of them pull out a big shoota and just blow the rest away or do they need to brawl?

If they need to fight, would they face off one at a time until one was a victor or would they all have a grand melee with the last one standing being the victor?

If the battered, bloodied, and bruised victor of any of the above competitions was ambushed and killed by nob 12 in the pecking order would number 12 become the new boss or would the other orks refuse to follow him because "dirty pool"?

Or is this all moot because the orks already know who the new warboss is?

The biggest becomes the next boss. If there's two equal ones they'll have a fight (generally hand-to-hand).

or the third one eliminates them via underhanded strategy. Remember, warbosses are seldom just the dumb brutes of the crop.

Orks instinctively know who the boss is. If the warboss dies, they would immediately know who the next in line is. This isn't to say that there wouldn't be someone trying to face them down. It is said that a boss is constantly being challenged to keep his position.

jbuck wrote:
Let's say there's a group of four or five "top" nobs and their warboss gets himself killed.

Each of the four nobs thinks he should be the next boss. Are there ANY rules?

Can one of them pull out a big shoota and just blow the rest away or do they need to brawl?

If they need to fight, would they face off one at a time until one was a victor or would they all have a grand melee with the last one standing being the victor?

If the battered, bloodied, and bruised victor of any of the above competitions was ambushed and killed by nob 12 in the pecking order would number 12 become the new boss or would the other orks refuse to follow him because "dirty pool"?

Or is this all moot because the orks already know who the new warboss is?

Depends on the orks. Pretty sure all of the above have happened, except possibly the 'automatically know because space magic' option at the end.

Voss wrote:


Depends on the orks. Pretty sure all of the above have happened, except possibly the 'automatically know because space magic' option at the end.

I mean...that's literally what the lore says.

 Haasbioroid wrote:

I mean...that's literally what the lore says.

On the contrary, the instances where a Warboss going down and his WAAAAAGGGH collapsing to infighting immediately are a dime a dozen, to the point that decapitation strikes are the go-to strategy for combating Ork incursions by multiple factions. If what you're positing is true, and Orks just know who the next boss is, that wouldn't occur.

Pretty sure the lore in the codex does support an instinctual understanding of the hierarchy. There are plenty of orks who have the confidence, skill, or kunnin' to try and challenge the guy above them, but there is definitely an animalistic social aspect going.

An Ork might know who is meant to be the next boss but that doesn't stop them from 'avin' a go at becoming the next boss instead.

It also doesn't mean the next boss is going to be either as cunning and brutal - or as brutal and cunning - as the old boss.

Actual leadership qualities are not taken into account. It is literally "who's biggest?" Which you can discern by sight.

"Oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da Boyz. They'z all the same size too, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings."

Codex: Orks, 4th Ed.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Quotes

For starters, Orks are far less individualist than humans, with far more of a shared collective subconscious and willingness to subordinate themselves to the group. Sure, Orks run away, because they have self preservation, and many are sneaky and cunning, but overall, Orks know their place in the tribe, klan, and world, due to an almost Calvinist sense of linking physical size with authority.

That all said, just because it would be unthinkable for anybody past the four or five biggest nobs to become the next warboss, doesn't mean those four or five wouldn't jockey for position. I don't think the fluff makes it clear if orks grow quickly after moving up, but I think there's some 2nd edition fluff about a nob noticing one of his boyz looking bigger, meaner, and shiftier, and noting that he'd need to keep an eye out.

The rules and lore (which is tide heavily to the rules) also only detail nobs and warbosses, when there are almost certainly sub rungs in both. (boys generally go Yuufs_>boy_>skarboy/specialists_>nob). I'd guess there at nobs that run in squads, than squad leader nobs, than the nobs that lead nob squads, than your low level warboss.

Warbosses vary wildly in aiblities. Killing a powerful warboss, when the replacement is not powerful enough to hold the waaagh together, is can slow a Waagh. Killing a warboss only slightly more capable than his senior nob will barely make a difference.

It's definietly not space magic. Humans have instincts about people too, and we don't put that down to space magic

Orks want a successful boss. Just like humans, they will have an instinct about who might make the best leader.
This would probably be based on size, kunning, their own clan predilections etc.

Of course, that doesn't mean that any particular ork's instincts are correct, or even that all of them will agree!
It takes a pretty special boss to unite the tribes and create a Waaagghh, so often the Orks fall to infighting.

jbuck wrote:
Let's say there's a group of four or five "top" nobs and their warboss gets himself killed.

Each of the four nobs thinks he should be the next boss. Are there ANY rules?

Not really, no. Though some clans might agree to different "events" (such as a race for example) with rules to determine the next boss.

Can one of them pull out a big shoota and just blow the rest away or do they need to brawl?

Both probably. Orks don't have the best aim, even the bosses

If they need to fight, would they face off one at a time until one was a victor or would they all have a grand melee with the last one standing being the victor?

Whichever is most fun, likely the grand melee because Orks aren't known for their patience.

If the battered, bloodied, and bruised victor of any of the above competitions was ambushed and killed by nob 12 in the pecking order would number 12 become the new boss or would the other orks refuse to follow him because "dirty pool"?

Orks recover pretty quickly and don't really feel pain. It's unlikely that a lesser Nob would be able to take the boss (despite battle damage) or would even attempt it. If the lesser Nob somehow beat the new boss, clearly the wrong boss was chosen and the "lesser Nob" should've been the boss to begin with!

Or is this all moot because the orks already know who the new warboss is?

Not necessarily. Sometimes there are multiple options of new boss and if a decent replacement isn't identified clearly often Orks will resort to infighting and the WAAAGHH! will implode.

I'd love to see orks having elections for their next warboss. The political debates would be glorious!

Humans also tend to defer to those who are physically bigger than they are.

We're still only halfway out of the trees.

Not Online!!! wrote:
or the third one eliminates them via underhanded strategy. Remember, warbosses are seldom just the dumb brutes of the crop.

There's omniscient lore which states the direct opposite. Warbosses tend to be the biggest and most brutal, but not the brightest bulbs.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
Orks instinctively know who the boss is. If the warboss dies, they would immediately know who the next in line is. This isn't to say that there wouldn't be someone trying to face them down. It is said that a boss is constantly being challenged to keep his position.

I can't remember which codex, but I know that one of them talks about how a warboss' death in command tends to result in his nob retinue immediately fighting amongst themselves to see who's the new leader. I think it might actually be this edition's.

According to the 90s game, Gorkamorka, the ork with the highest leadership value becomes leader. If there are multiple orks with the same highest leadership value then experience is used as a tie breaker for which two orks must pitfight for leadership.

If the next biggest has a clear margin of superiority then succession may be smooth. However as has already been pointed out, many Ork forces fall into infighting after a decapitation strike. That can be because there is no clear successor because the contenders are of roughly comparable power, with any margin of superiority slim enough that others still think they might have a go at trying to contest it.

It goes: You, The Dirt, the Worms in the Dirt, Kami, then Popo....



Wait wrong pecking order.

One would be clearly the dominant one. If any wanted to challenge that there is a mechanism for that. Pit fight. Winner wins.

jbuck wrote:
Let's say there's a group of four or five "top" nobs and their warboss gets himself killed.

Each of the four nobs thinks he should be the next boss. Are there ANY rules?

Can one of them pull out a big shoota and just blow the rest away or do they need to brawl?

If they need to fight, would they face off one at a time until one was a victor or would they all have a grand melee with the last one standing being the victor?

If the battered, bloodied, and bruised victor of any of the above competitions was ambushed and killed by nob 12 in the pecking order would number 12 become the new boss or would the other orks refuse to follow him because "dirty pool"?

Or is this all moot because the orks already know who the new warboss is?

These two snippets from the bible of ORK society (Waaargh ORKS) answer you’re questions perfectly. Anyone who says otherwise needs to be referred back to the bible and told to shut it.

Don't humans in 40K also just follow the biggest human, that is why we have upscaled the Emperor and Primarchs in recent background. Obviously because Girlyman is the biggest human, he is the leader, until the Emperor wakes up and is a foot taller or whatever. Makes sense.

 Da Boss wrote:
Don't humans in 40K also just follow the biggest human, that is why we have upscaled the Emperor and Primarchs in recent background. Obviously because Girlyman is the biggest human, he is the leader, until the Emperor wakes up and is a foot taller or whatever. Makes sense.

Only because Orks will it to be. It's why the Ultramarines are so lucky or why the Blood Angels had faster vehicles.

 Da Boss wrote:
Don't humans in 40K also just follow the biggest human

Yep. We like to follow tall people with deep voices.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Don't humans in 40K also just follow the biggest human, that is why we have upscaled the Emperor and Primarchs in recent background. Obviously because Girlyman is the biggest human, he is the leader, until the Emperor wakes up and is a foot taller or whatever. Makes sense.

Only because Orks will it to be. It's why the Ultramarines are so lucky or why the Blood Angels had faster vehicles.

That's...makes sense

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Don't humans in 40K also just follow the biggest human

Yep. We like to follow tall people with deep voices.

Shouting in propper doses helps more then size.

Andykp wrote:

jbuck wrote:
Let's say there's a group of four or five "top" nobs and their warboss gets himself killed.

Each of the four nobs thinks he should be the next boss. Are there ANY rules?

Can one of them pull out a big shoota and just blow the rest away or do they need to brawl?

If they need to fight, would they face off one at a time until one was a victor or would they all have a grand melee with the last one standing being the victor?

If the battered, bloodied, and bruised victor of any of the above competitions was ambushed and killed by nob 12 in the pecking order would number 12 become the new boss or would the other orks refuse to follow him because "dirty pool"?

Or is this all moot because the orks already know who the new warboss is?

These two snippets from the bible of ORK society (Waaargh ORKS) answer you’re questions perfectly. Anyone who says otherwise needs to be referred back to the bible and told to shut it.

Background has changed over the years though. So fantastic as the old source books are, they’re pretty far from gospel.

As has been said before, taking out the Warboss is more or less a guaranteed way to halt a Waaaagh! in its tracks as it devolves into infighting to sort out who the new boss is.

It is true that Orks don’t have ambition in the way of say, humans or Eldar. But, most decapatation strikes don’t just take out the Warboss. But his best Nobz. And that? That is why they work. Orks being Orks, the Warboss/Warlord’s cronies do tend to be the next biggest in his tribe. Yes, some will be off elsewhere keeping underling Tribes in-line. But it’s still too many eggs in one basket. Because it’s those very underling tribes that cause the biggest problem,

Consider Ghaz. He’s the supreme leader of thousands of separate tribes. And thousands may be an underestimate. If Ghaz gets himself perished? That’s an awful, awful lot of Warbosses suddenly poised to seize the reins. And of course, their ladz will instinctively support their Boss, and get stuck in too.

In modern 40k, Orks scrap it out, breaking into far less organised, relatively poorly deployed forces, which are far, far easier to tackle.

And one suspects that when say the Adeptus Astartes are involved, intelligence gathering to ensure you are in fact taking down the right Warboss will help spot the most likely candidates for the top job. Giving you very solid secondary targets to keep the collapse collapsing, breaking the Waaagh! down ever further.

Indeed, this is probably the main, exploitable Orky weakness. Sure it’s a bugger to pull off, but still a colossal weakness. Not only do you take down the head honcho, but several of the ‘ardest of his followers (Nobz and Boyz alike) will get perished during the infighting, further reducing the overall cohesion.

I guess the ideal against any Waaaagh! would be to have several hundred utterly deadly Snipers acting in concert to take out every Nob at the same time....

The following occurs in death or glory, a Ciaphas Cain novel by Sandy Mitchel:


I guess this implies some kind of need to establish hierarchy before continuing a fight?

As I recall there's that bit in the tyranid codex where the hive fleet realises a weakness in ork psychology and assasinates the warlord as well as his nob retinue. It then takes use of the ensuing ork disorder to crush them in what would otherwise have been an even fight. It's the one where the orks actually outnumber the tyranids. A lictor assasinates the warboss. Don't recall what the hive fleet name was or the ork tribe. This is the only occasion I can think of where the flaw is so clearly exploited.

I think 'need' is overselling it, I put this down to the low cunning of the Orks.

"Hmm better to be in charge of a reduced strength Waaagghh, than expend one's strength against the enemy only to lose control once the dust settles... "
It only takes one Nob to think like this to start the 'tit for tat' infighting!

as has been noted, waaghs often break down from infighting when a warboss dies, it's a regular eneugh occurance that it's almost standard anti-Ork tactics and the IoM has dedicated units devoted to it (this is one of the regular duties death watch kill teams engage in)