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The whole concept is flawed. For example, Razorbacks. Rhino’s are pre heresy but there is a wait of 6k years before an STC is found that tells the mechanics that sticking a big gun on top of one may be a good idea.

You have to remember that in the Imperium innovation is generally frowned upon as bordering on heresy, if not considered outright heresy. That's why nobody's improved on technology that is over 10,000 years old in all the time of the Imperium, and why Belisarius Cawl is probably considered to have balls of steel for doing the things he's done with Primaris Space Marines and their wargear.

One cannot use modern views about progress to understand the Imperium/Adeptus Mechanicus way of doing things. Theirs is a religious mindset where all knowledge (or all knowledge worth knowing) is contained within the STC. Anything not in it is considered unsanctioned by the Machine God. Therefore any design has to be from the STC or be judged to be an allowed for variant of another STC design (whether this is actually the case or not). Any actual new design might have to have evidence fudged for it, but this is not impossible given how fragmentary the surviving STC data is.

Remember that the Mechanicus don't actually understand many of the underpinnings of the technology they're building and maintaining. They're just following the blueprints, blueprints they KNOW will work because STC patterns always work. Start tinkering and the worst might happen - silicon animus, or self-aware machines. They don't know how to prevent it from arising. All they can do is build stuff they know doesn't have it. Will plugging a twin lascannon on top of a transport make it an AI? Probably not, but they can't say for sure! Maybe the machine spirit (which they also do not understand) of the lascannons and Rhinos start interacting and going rogue. They'd rather not take that chance because they remember what happened the last time the AIs rose up against humanity.

 Fireytas wrote:
The whole concept is flawed. For example, Razorbacks. Rhino’s are pre heresy but there is a wait of 6k years before an STC is found that tells the mechanics that sticking a big gun on top of one may be a good idea.

Techpriests and Techmarines aren't engineers or even mechanics, they are priests they have no solid background in science and don't understand how machines truly work. They remember the functionning, building and maintenance process of machine through myths, superstitions, mantras and prayers. They understand technology like theologians and prophets understand physics and astronomy.

 Fireytas wrote:
The whole concept is flawed. For example, Razorbacks. Rhino’s are pre heresy but there is a wait of 6k years before an STC is found that tells the mechanics that sticking a big gun on top of one may be a good idea.

Yes, that's the thing about 40k. Nothing makes sense, it's a big ol' parody of conservative mindset. That's how it was conceived in the beginning and that's what it remains.

As others have said the Imperium is insane bureaucracy built upon generations of insane bureaucracy and religion all mixed up together.

It's a system that basically aims to preserve itself in a single state of being in an attempt to protect itself after several major disasters befell them (the uprising of AI and the corruption of nearly fully half their armed forces to - basically - the forces of Hell).

Furthermore the Imperium has survived in its current state for many many generations. It's not just that its madness, its madness that has, on some level, actually "worked". Plus with the way its setup if they lose a few hundred worlds it doesn't matter to them - the Imperium itself has remained (in fact they can lose planets in their own administration system and forget they exist).



It's an insane, by our standards, universe. Against all odds it also functions and works. The Imperium still survives despite being beset with war on multiple fronts against powerful Xenos and Traitor forces.

Basically on one level the Imperium views itself on a balancing point between defeat and victory. They dare not rock the boat incase the balance falls to the wrong side, even if this means that its been locked in wars it cannot actually win. This is without corrupting and twisting forces attempting to also hold them back.



It's diseased; corrupted; rotten; twisted and yet still living and working. You dare not change the STC for fear of what might happen, especially when your education doesn't actually let you know how the thing works. You just know it works and you do your bit to make the part and attach it to the whole that you were told to do. You Pray to the Emperor and you do your job. In many ways the Imperium is like a giant assembly factory; it functions and takes in resources and pumps out product, but no part of the factories machine is capable of changing its purpose in life. Remember to the Imperium the vast majority of its population is treated almost identically to a robot.

Weirder are examples like the Immolator, where finding the STC template apparently resulted in at least four significantly different vehicle designs, based on at least three different hull marks, one of which was already out of favour...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Weirder are examples like the Immolator, where finding the STC template apparently resulted in at least four significantly different vehicle designs, based on at least three different hull marks, one of which was already out of favour...

Exactly this. I understand the ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ and the AM not innovators guff. But in an empire of a million planets, which are sometimes isolated for hundreds of years, if not millennia, the fluff supporting the STC concept simply doesn’t add up. It comes across as a simple plot device to explain the sudden addition of new product lines, which it probably was intended to originally be.

 Fireytas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Weirder are examples like the Immolator, where finding the STC template apparently resulted in at least four significantly different vehicle designs, based on at least three different hull marks, one of which was already out of favour...

Exactly this. I understand the ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ and the AM not innovators guff. But in an empire of a million planets, which are sometimes isolated for hundreds of years, if not millennia, the fluff supporting the STC concept simply doesn’t add up. It comes across as a simple plot device to explain the sudden addition of new product lines, which it probably was intended to originally be.

Remember what we see in most of the lore and what we game with is the "standard issue" situation. The bulk of the Imperium. There are certainly worlds and individuals which have innovated and invented. However the attention of the great bulk of the Imperium isn't on them. If it does fall on them then it crushes them utterly for breaking the rules.

You can bend and break them, but you've got to be outside of the normal. Like on the Blackstone Fortress raiding station in one of the new Novellas; where Imperial people will stand shoulder to shoulder with vile Xenos.

 Fireytas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Weirder are examples like the Immolator, where finding the STC template apparently resulted in at least four significantly different vehicle designs, based on at least three different hull marks, one of which was already out of favour...

Exactly this. I understand the ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ and the AM not innovators guff. But in an empire of a million planets, which are sometimes isolated for hundreds of years, if not millennia, the fluff supporting the STC concept simply doesn’t add up. It comes across as a simple plot device to explain the sudden addition of new product lines, which it probably was intended to originally be.

As if it's not intended to be all of the following:
* An explanation for something new showing up in the game (a lost STC was rediscovered)
* An explanation for why you're not allowed to do something (The STC doesn't give you that option. Stop being a heretic and asking for change!)
* Social commentary.

Concerning "the same template resulted in at least four significantly different vehicle designs, based on at least three different hull marks", you have to think about what it's like to have one of those fancy toy kits that can be built in multiple ways, and lose nine tenths of the instructions. So they've got maybe designs 3, 5, 12, and 97, plus a bunch of stuff that doesn't make sense because it doesn't get used anywhere. Or, more importantly, designs 3, 5, 12 and 97 are the ones that matter to the war-game, and the other 25 or 50 surviving designs either are for irrelevant things like recreational vehicles, or are the dreaded "References a missing STC".

Why are the hull designs so different? Because of some situation like it was the "100 Exciting (Military) Projects to Build with the RTX-10 rotary engine" and they had three different engineering teams filling the book.

Frankly, even if you've got three or four teams on different planets working to the same STC, the resulting pattern is going to vary, because design 3 might be intended to use a manufacturing method (nanofusion gravetic welding) that that forge world has lost, and when they follow the instructions as best they can with a magnetic welding technique, to get it strong enough the turret will look subtly different - but they don't "know" they're doing it wrong....

Now scale up to designs which say "bolt a demolished cannon on here" and whilst the crazy interoperable STC designs will make it work, if your "demolisher cannon" uses a fluidic recoil system, the back end inside the tank is going to look bloody wired compared to the original design intent.

locarno24 wrote:
Frankly, even if you've got three or four teams on different planets working to the same STC, the resulting pattern is going to vary, because design 3 might be intended to use a manufacturing method (nanofusion gravetic welding) that that forge world has lost, and when they follow the instructions as best they can with a magnetic welding technique, to get it strong enough the turret will look subtly different - but they don't "know" they're doing it wrong....

Now scale up to designs which say "bolt a demolished cannon on here" and whilst the crazy interoperable STC designs will make it work, if your "demolisher cannon" uses a fluidic recoil system, the back end inside the tank is going to look bloody wired compared to the original design intent.

You're in a universe where any deviation from the plans can result in you, your family and all your friends being shot for heresy.


And yes there IS variation planet to planet. In the past GW sold several different versions of the Imperial Guard forces to represent forces from different planets and backgrounds. Even though they'd be using the same technology and machines. However they mostly squashed that approach as they shifted off metals and into plastics. This is because its much cheaper to make new metal moulds so they could do more side-forces; but with plastics the upfront investment is much greater and the Imperial Guard just doesn't sell anywhere near as powerfully as Marines to justify that kind of investment into "side armies".

The thing I don't understand is that if everything is built from STC's and they don't permit innovation then where did all the skulls, eagles and weird scrolls come from? It's like the only remnant of human technology was weirdly over decorated junk.

pm713 wrote:
The thing I don't understand is that if everything is built from STC's and they don't permit innovation then where did all the skulls, eagles and weird scrolls come from? It's like the only remnant of human technology was weirdly over decorated junk.

Decoration isn't technological innovation. There's probably tons of stuff the Admech doesn't even consider real technology, like a blacksmith on a feudal world making swords. They probably barely consider 20th century technology as anything but the most primitive of stuff. They concern themselves with stuff that has machine spirits (i.e. real expressions of the Omnissiah), not crude tools.

 John Prins wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The thing I don't understand is that if everything is built from STC's and they don't permit innovation then where did all the skulls, eagles and weird scrolls come from? It's like the only remnant of human technology was weirdly over decorated junk.

Decoration isn't technological innovation. There's probably tons of stuff the Admech doesn't even consider real technology, like a blacksmith on a feudal world making swords. They probably barely consider 20th century technology as anything but the most primitive of stuff. They concern themselves with stuff that has machine spirits (i.e. real expressions of the Omnissiah), not crude tools.

And of course it can be varied even amongst the Mechanicus. A Magos of the Biologus grouping would most likely believe that anything not dealing with the human body not matter as much.

There's variety in plenty of locations, but with millions of worlds you get the biggest, most commonly used STC's because.. Well GW doesn't want to write out a million statpages. The RPG's tend to use more variants to expand out the armories and the like.

pm713 wrote:
The thing I don't understand is that if everything is built from STC's and they don't permit innovation then where did all the skulls, eagles and weird scrolls come from? It's like the only remnant of human technology was weirdly over decorated junk.

decoration isn't part of the tech, so there's nothing that says your gear can't be decoated. and the IoM tends to richly decorate it's gear,

Ahhh, the STC.

Essentially, the Adeptus Mechnicus, and it’s previous incarnation, the Mechanicum of Mars know STC’s exist. And they (kind of) know what they are. But many gamers won’t have had the luck to read the Rogue Trader book. And without that, the picture is incomplete.

See, there are STC’s, and fragments of STC’a. Most everything used in the Imperium is made from the latter. Consider it having access to a single file from a 100tb hard drive.

A fully functioning STC? You’d tell it (so that early background, which may or may not be true, depending on how you treat it) what function you need, and what materials are at hand. The STC, the sum of all engineering know-how up to its invention, then works out what to build, how to build it, and basically present you with a blueprint. This is what allowed mankind to first colonise the galaxy, and so successfully.

And that is what the AM are truly seeking. A complete, uncorrupted STC.

Of course, when you stop and think about it? The Men of Iron must’ve come from STC. Everything did. Literally everything. Which rather begs the question, are STC’s more Skynet than a digital encyclopaedia of how to make stuff?

It’s possible that the STC’s also formed a linked database, so if anything truly new was made (perhaps reverse engineered from Xeno Tech) would be shared with all the colonies, or at least those in touch with each other.

From there, who can truly say a potentially sentient STC didn’t conceive and corrupt the Men of Iron quite deliberately? What then becomes of the AM should their grail be found?

But that wild speculation aside, STC’s very much remain key to mankind’s continued success and ability to wage war.

Remember that the Imperial Guard are the true, undisputed backbone of The Imperium. Without their overwhelming numbers, things would’ve come to a close millennia ago. And for the most part, they’re armed with the humble Lasgun.

Now, stop another minute and look at the sheer variety of small arms wielded today, in the 21st century. In terms of ammo? There’s some deliberate standardisation. But not global. Idea being that say, NATO forces can all use the same ammo calibre, reducing logistics of supply etc.

Expand that across the size of the Imperium? That’s.....truly mind boggling. Sure, they can produce all the ammo they need. But what happens if you’re about to launch a back breaking assault, only to find the Administratum has sent the wrong calibre?

Enter the humble Lasgun. Many, many different marks and patterns. But, for the most part (there are exceptions, there are always exceptions) they use a common ammo pack. So even if you’re fighting on Bumhole XVII, and end up with the ammo meant for Buttmunch V? You can still use them. Only issue there is whether you’ve enough to go round!

Scale it up? Leman Russ, Chimera, Basilisk etc. All STC, so just as with Incom in Star Wars, a relatively standardised set of controls. In theory, a tank crew can pile out of their Leman Russ which was made on Cantrel IV, and into a Mars pattern without ever having to really worry about ‘but how do we make this one go boom boom?’.

The STC keeps things universal on a galactic scale. And when that’s untold billions of soldiers across millions of battlefronts? That matters.

And the sheer loggysticks of such scale of conflict also explains why other races use largely standardised equipment. It’s just an awful lot easier to maintain.

Indeed. Logistics is the Imperial guard's biggest strong point. It's not just interstellar shipping, either: the fact that a guardsman can with no real difficulty, carry 3-400 shots is a huge deal.

Yes, a Tau pulse rifle will stop orks, marines, and small cargo trucks with a solid hit. But - and this is something you see in the RPG but doesn't translate to the table top - it's much less useful as a suppressive fire weapon because you need to reload more often, have less clips to waste, and can't recharge the power cell off any old industrial power socket....

You're in a universe where any deviation from the plans can result in you, your family and all your friends being shot for heresy. 

And the arguments about what is heretical deviation and what is "a local pattern" can get very heated to the point of shooting wars...
If a vehicle uses an STC chassis, and STC mounting to fit STC weapons on its hardpoints, it's an STC design, right? Probably. Maybe..... Making that call took so long the designer of the Macharius was dead before it went into mass production....

But you’ve got to put that in the full context.

Imagine that you’ve got that STC machine, and you’re trying to get it to tell you how to build a vehicle on a new colony. You’re going to need training on how to tell it what resources you have, and training on how to understand what it tells you. And think about what needs to built to build that parts to build a car. So the STC machine will produce the instructions for how to build the parts to build the vehicle.

The STC machine provides, the STC machine is good, there’s no need to understand why it gives you this output instead of that output. Why it gives you a rhino chassis for this situation, and a land raider chassis in that situation.

And then 10,000 years of war later, what’s left over isn’t the STC machines, it’s the output of the STC machines, or pieces of the STC machine database. Because either:
* Fully functional STC machines would be incompatible with GrimDark.
* A fully functional STC machine would either be able to build Iron Men, or a proto-form of the Iron Men. And all it would take is the right question to get that sequence of events again.

It’s the old story of “If you had a magic box that solved all of your problems for you (or told you the answer to any question), and you grew up always having the box available, why would you need to know anything other than how to ask the box for the answer?”
Step 1: Hand out magic boxes and get people using them.
Step 2: The people not using the magic boxes cause something bad to happen. Or you think they did.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: The magic boxes stopped working.
And now you’re the IoM.

Absolutely spot on.

And if they were directly responsible for Men of Iron and what then happened? It seems entirely possible the STC’s were purposefully wrecked, either from wisdom or fear.