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You know, as in, under different social-gaming contexts. For example, how acceptable would it be if I were to try to get a PUG with, say, ~1000 pts of a definitely-not-SW-army since it's probably gonna be painted not-baby-blue? What about tournaments or what-have-yous? Just to be clear, I'm not a competitive guy. I'm more of a hobbyist. But given I have already bled couple of grands on minis I liked and I'm gonna dump at least a dozen more dollars into building an army, I might as well plan for the possibility that I might want to play with said army. I don't know anyone who plays it so PUG is probably how I might get to play a game at some point, so I would like to know how likely is it to get a game with an all-primaris mini army proxy vanilla marines?

I like the true-scale marine kits, but I don't like the idea of having separated marines and bigger-marines. I'd rather wait for an expansion of the primaris line to build a vanilla army than to build an army with minis I like from the vanilla marines line and the primaris. The height difference alone kills my mood for the prospect. I've got quite a few MK.VI helmets I can swap the MK.Xs' for and I might even green-stuff a few termies just to make them aggressor-height. But I absolutely do not want a primaris army -- for its seleciton, its lore, and its very idea. Thank you.

Imo you shouldnt have a problem. They're even on the same base size now. With traditional gear options on them nobody should be making any mistakes about them, esp since you aren't planning on running any actual Primaris units.

Expensive army though

 lcmiracle wrote:
You know, as in, under different social-gaming contexts. For example, how acceptable would it be if I were to try to get a PUG with, say, ~1000 pts of a definitely-not-SW-army since it's probably gonna be painted not-baby-blue?

Color shouldn't be an issue. And if it is you've found someone not worthy of playing with. After all, not even GW always represents SW as being in bluish armor. There's more than one novel cover where the SW depicted is in GREY armor. And indeed that's their original RT color scheme.

 lcmiracle wrote:
What about tournaments or what-have-yous? Just to be clear, I'm not a competitive guy. I'm more of a hobbyist. But given I have already bled couple of grands on minis I liked and I'm gonna dump at least a dozen more dollars into building an army, I might as well plan for the possibility that I might want to play with said army. I don't know anyone who plays it so PUG is probably how I might get to play a game at some point, so I would like to know how likely is it to get a game with an all-primaris mini army proxy vanilla marines?

I like the true-scale marine kits, but I don't like the idea of having separated marines and bigger-marines. I'd rather wait for an expansion of the primaris line to build a vanilla army than to build an army with minis I like from the vanilla marines line and the primaris. The height difference alone kills my mood for the prospect. I've got quite a few MK.VI helmets I can swap the MK.Xs' for and I might even green-stuff a few termies just to make them aggressor-height. But I absolutely do not want a primaris army -- for its seleciton, its lore, and its very idea. Thank you.

I would go to the effort of making their weapons 100% WYSIWYG as far as what the non-Primaris units can take. Absolutely no this -Primaris-weapon-is-really-a-______. If it's a classic bolt gun? Then glue a classic bolt gun on the mini. Same with plasma, etc. And I like your idea of using non-Primaris helmets.

I wouldn't go as far as replace the bolters, but any plasma gun/missile launcher/lascannon/flamer/grav gun/etc should definitely be represented by the appropriate weapon.

 Jidmah wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as replace the bolters, but any plasma gun/missile launcher/lascannon/flamer/grav gun/etc should definitely be represented by the appropriate weapon.

Yeah I'm rather disappointed by the Primaris options available ATM. No heavy bolter no melta, no nuffin'. I think I'll have to get some tac squad box and convert them for the appropriate special options. And since I really want a assault squad I will have to convert them unless Primaris AM kits are to ever come out. Not to mention the termies.

Honestly the Primaris also put me off the CSM -- it bugs me the scale differences between the two arch-enemies of the universe that exist right now. And with now DG kits made alongside the release of Primaris I really don't see CSM getting a "true-scale" version kit anytime soon.

I don't know, the new kits released like havocs and what's in shadowspear compare pretty well to primaris imo.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as replace the bolters, but any plasma gun/missile launcher/lascannon/flamer/grav gun/etc should definitely be represented by the appropriate weapon.

Yeah I'm rather disappointed by the Primaris options available ATM. No heavy bolter no melta, no nuffin'. I think I'll have to get some tac squad box and convert them for the appropriate special options. And since I really want a assault squad I will have to convert them unless Primaris AM kits are to ever come out. Not to mention the termies.

Honestly the Primaris also put me off the CSM -- it bugs me the scale differences between the two arch-enemies of the universe that exist right now. And with now DG kits made alongside the release of Primaris I really don't see CSM getting a "true-scale" version kit anytime soon.

what size difference...

The new CSM are equal in size to the Primaris.
Infact here: Infiltrators converted to be a baseline msu CSM squad intermixed for reasons of that small warband, curtesy of mine.

If youd put effort into making them otherwise WYSIWYG (ie weapons), then I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

In fact I have Primaris scale conversions for Azrael, Company Champions, and a Techmarine I sometimes use in my Dark Amgels.

So long as you are not mixing it I would say its perfectly fine, be it kitchen table/local store pick up game or a tournament.

But 'these Primaris are vanilla marines and these Primaris are actual Primaris' is not ok because it can lead to confusion.

Do what you like with your models, but I'm not a fan. IMO proper Marines should be Proper Marines.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Honestly the Primaris also put me off the CSM -- it bugs me the scale differences between the two arch-enemies of the universe that exist right now. And with now DG kits made alongside the release of Primaris I really don't see CSM getting a "true-scale" version kit anytime soon.

Chaos marines are the original 7 foot soldiers. Primaris are new 8 foot taller marines. Chaos marines SHOULD be shorter. If you go with assumption that primaris models are 7 feet models then custodian models needs to be scaled up head taller. And primaris marines needs to be scaled up along as well to be accurate primaris marines...

As long as you don’t use any actual primaris units, I don’t see this as a problem in casual play. No different really then a true-scale army. Once you mix them, so this squad is primaris, but that squad is regular marines, despite looking the same, is where the problem comes in IMHO.

As for WYSWYG, I’s be fine with a slightly looser version. No reason to replace bolt rifles with bolters, or plasma incinerators with plasma guns. Those are close enough visually to their basic counterpoints. Weapons not in the primaris range might be a little rough, but doable. The Deathwatch kit is also at the top end of scale creep, so might be good for parts.

- In casual play, it's fine as long as everything is clear.

- In tournaments you'd need to do some extra work to make them conversions instead of proxies. Examples would be making sure they have Boltguns instead of Bolt Rifles, a distinct silhouette that more closely resembles Tactical Marines and mixing in classic heads and backpacks so it doesn't look as obviously like Mk X armour. There's no single authority for tournaments, so you'd need to get your conversions approved by the Tournament Organizer in advance each time.

tneva82 wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Honestly the Primaris also put me off the CSM -- it bugs me the scale differences between the two arch-enemies of the universe that exist right now. And with now DG kits made alongside the release of Primaris I really don't see CSM getting a "true-scale" version kit anytime soon.

Chaos marines are the original 7 foot soldiers. Primaris are new 8 foot taller marines. Chaos marines SHOULD be shorter. If you go with assumption that primaris models are 7 feet models then custodian models needs to be scaled up head taller. And primaris marines needs to be scaled up along as well to be accurate primaris marines...

Exactly the reason my I abhor the atrocity that are the "Primaris Marine" -- it's only GW half-assing their way not going through with releasing true-scale marines. Absolutely no reason for there to be marines and bigger marines, in the same codex no less.

For one thing, only a blind man would fail to see the drastic stylistic differences, let alone that of the sizes, between the vanilla and primaris aesthetics. Putting the two side by side is like drawing a realistic art on the same piece of paper with a dilbert comic strip. For another it's bloody insult to assume the playbase would just get over it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

what size difference...

The new CSM are equal in size to the Primaris.
Infact here: Infiltrators converted to be a baseline msu CSM squad intermixed for reasons of that small warband, curtesy of mine.

Well I haven't seen that yet. I guess just another reason to add to my "hate the dumpster fire that is the primaris marines lore" list.

Que? What do you mean by that?

My whole Salamanders force is made up of Primaris converted to be Oldmarines. I used Mk 7 helmets and did a lot of snipping and gluing to give them boltguns, combi-weapons, heavy bolters and missle launchers. I even have my Sternguard/Company Veterans made using Intercessor legs/torsos.

I just like the scale so much more than the squatting marines. And I haven't had any issues so far.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Que? What do you mean by that?

Sí, señor. Since the trashfire of the primaris lore states they are stronger, tougher, faster, and a lot larger then the vanilla marines, which is the justification for why the new Primaris kits are a head taller than vanilla marines', that'd mean of course the CSMs would be smaller than the Primaris since, you know, they are on the same height level as vanilla marines. So if the new CSM kits are the same size as PSMs', then it'd not only mean the CSM is now bigger then the vanilla marines, it'd also mean the whole point of the primaris being bigger in the lore is now null.

Though when I look at the GW online store page for the new CSM collection, while it's very difficult to tell the sizes, it'd seem they are definitely not the same aesthetic style as the PSM, and is perhaps only half a head taller than they were now. The legs seems slightly taller so they'd be less squat but it definitely is not the same leg lengths as the PSM's. Which only means another opportunity for true-scale CSM is wasted.

Either way I hate it when they don't fully commit to the idea. True-scale is a much more modern aesthetic style, and nothing in it on true-scale itself means it has to change the overall look of either the SM nor the CSM. Now they've instead committed to having PSM and SM as two separate, distinct entities, that means anything not carrying the "Primaris" name would be kept in the old, cartonish style. Which is why the new CSM is no where near the same proportion as the PSM, even though this is a new kit and the best opportunity for a conversion to true-scale.

It seems to me it'd take until the day GW decided that they'd make more money selling true-scale CSMs, whatever they'd be calling them then, for there be a true-scale CSM release; and even then, they'd be separate, distinct, and lack the options of the vanilla CSMs.

 lcmiracle wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Que? What do you mean by that?

Sí, señor. Since the trashfire of the primaris lore states they are stronger, tougher, faster, and a lot larger then the vanilla marines, which is the justification for why the new Primaris kits are a head taller than vanilla marines', that'd mean of course the CSMs would be smaller than the Primaris since, you know, they are on the same height level as vanilla marines. So if the new CSM kits are the same size as PSMs', then it'd not only mean the CSM is now bigger then the vanilla marines, it'd also mean the whole point of the primaris being bigger in the lore is now null.

Though when I look at the GW online store page for the new CSM collection, while it's very difficult to tell the sizes, it'd seem they are definitely not the same aesthetic style as the PSM, and is perhaps only half a head taller than they were now. The legs seems slightly taller so they'd be less squat but it definitely is not the same leg lengths as the PSM's. Which only means another opportunity for true-scale CSM is wasted.

Either way I hate it when they don't fully commit to the idea. True-scale is a much more modern aesthetic style, and nothing in it on true-scale itself means it has to change the overall look of either the SM nor the CSM. Now they've instead committed to having PSM and SM as two separate, distinct entities, that means anything not carrying the "Primaris" name would be kept in the old, cartonish style. Which is why the new CSM is no where near the same proportion as the PSM, even though this is a new kit and the best opportunity for a conversion to true-scale.

It seems to me it'd take until the day GW decided that they'd make more money selling true-scale CSMs, whatever they'd be calling them then, for there be a true-scale CSM release; and even then, they'd be separate, distinct, and lack the options of the vanilla CSMs.

honestly the size is probably for futureproofing, when all regular marines died out and only the primaris and CSM remain.

but i get where you are coming from

There is still a height difference, just like with Thousand Sons and Deathwatch kits or even the Space Marine Heroes range. They're closer to the height of the Primaris than they are to the old power armour models, but they're still shorter.

Not really an issue in my eyes.

If you're using old-Marine helmets, weapons, and organization, then the only thing Primaris about your Primaris models would be that they're taller. That's 100% okay in my book, and I would enjoy playing against such an army.

Re: Sizing, you can clearly see in the photo above that CSM are a smidge shorter than Primaris. Here's a size comparison that was floating around the Internet a while back:



And with the Primaris model (middle) next to a Death Guard sculpt you can clearly see the difference:



So tbh I think GW actually did a pretty decent job with this- CSM are just a bit smaller than Primaris now, so they're still smaller as is lore-accurate, but still much closer to truescale.

I think GW scale is just something they do on the side. The custodes and terminors are too small for what they should be. Sisters of battle are taller then regular space marines,
CSM who should be shrivled up and weak, because of all the chaos wrecking their bodies are not only taller then regular marines, but also almost as big as primaris.

I don't think model size have much to do with actual lore based proportions.

@OP:

One of the rules of the hobby:

Thou shall not proxy upon. Amen.

Marines are Marines, until they're not.
Primaris are run in single-loadout squads? Normal Marines can be, but usually have a special or heavy in there somewhere, with Sergeants? If you can make that obvious, go for it.

Just another exampl of how GW blew it. All marines should have gone to two wounds. Sure primaris weekies might get nee armor snd boltguns but... grav??? Still heretical .

 jeff white wrote:
Just another exampl of how GW blew it. All marines should have gone to two wounds. Sure primaris weekies might get nee armor snd boltguns but... grav??? Still heretical .

Sorry.... what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
I think GW scale is just something they do on the side. The custodes and terminors are too small for what they should be. Sisters of battle are taller then regular space marines,
CSM who should be shrivled up and weak, because of all the chaos wrecking their bodies are not only taller then regular marines, but also almost as big as primaris.

I don't think model size have much to do with actual lore based proportions.

Otherwise true, but then again Chaos could just as well give the marines a size boost, using mæńy ârçàńë magïćks

No, it's not just the height however; the height simply comes natural to the Primaris because they are more realistically proportioned compared to the stout legs old models. Their legs are ~1/3 higher with the rest of their body parts roughly the same size as the old marines'. I measured the their torsos are maybe just a few millimeters wider in diameter, and it's bloody difficult to measure the circumferences of something so irregular; the arms are only about 1/10 longer due to the forearms being shorter. Primaris heads are actually the same height, just slightly slimmer -- I've found them completely interchangeable myself. In fact conversion would simply involving cutting/sawing the old marine shin guards in half and use green-stuffs to elongate the legs. There used to be a user here that does that and has a blog on it.

The sisters (silence or loud) kits that are new are designed in the Primaris style. Look at the ratio of leg to torso lengths and you can see that. Meanwhile the new CSMs are still stunty-legged, in the old Marines style, only slightly improved, perhaps to match the DV chosen proportions. The two kits are released after PSM, hell, the even Nurgle marines that were released with the PSMs in had the old marine proportions. That's what I meant when I wrote "a realistic character next to a dilbert character (sip)" -- they are not remotely in the same art style, the dissonance is disgusting to me. GW deliberately keeps the artistic directions of their products in the same range separate, and I agree with Jeff White 100%.

This is hilarious

I swear people are getting even better at trolling.

"Would it be okay if I proxied primaris as old marines because old marines rule and primaris are an abomination but look better so I would never use primaris except just the models in a game entirely about models"

The same years old stuff just getting more refined! Love it.

And, if you're serious: don't ask a forum. Ask your group. The fact that you're even asking a forum tells me you either don't really play against real people, or are just looking to stir gak up.

Edit my bad you said you didn't play real people already. Still best to ask whoever hosts where you intend to play (local store or whatever) instead of this forum.

Quasistellar wrote:
This is hilarious

I swear people are getting even better at trolling.

"Would it be okay if I proxied primaris as old marines because old marines rule and primaris are an abomination but look better so I would never use primaris except just the models in a game entirely about models"

The same years old stuff just getting more refined! Love it.

First of all, I am of the opinion every one on this forum are indeed people. So yes, I am asking people about their opinions. Removed - Rule #1

And second, the true-scale kits are simply aesthetically better looking. I don't like the bs excuse of Primaris, but that doesn't mean I have gak taste, thank you very much. Why'd I collect a true-scale marine army while starting a sub-par munchkin-looking kit?

In fact, why even are people dismissing this as trolling? Removed - Rule #1

 lcmiracle wrote:

In fact, why even are people dismissing this as trolling?

Probably because every single post of yours in this thread appears to be designed to passive-aggressively fan the flames of rage towards Primaris, while simultaneously trying to embrace them at the same time, ensuring that you piss everyone off, regardless of their stance on the issue.

You maybe suprised by the idea, but there are countries in the world when people don't do passive aggresive stuff. If they ask a question, they really do mean them. I had to have the idea of friendly western banter explained to me a few times, because in eastern europe you don't say stuff like that about others and expect it to be just fun.

There is nothing wrong with liking the size and looks of primaris marines, but not liking their lore explanation.


But to back to non off topic stuff. Centurion lascanons and las fusils from eliminators make good lascanons when coupled with parts from the hellblaster heavy incinierator parts. Rocket Launchers can be made out of more or less any tube. Land raider tank multi melta and heavy flamers fit the intercessor models nice too. so you have those models covered too

I have seen Grey Hunters and Blood claws made out of kitbashing of reavers and intecessors with SW parts .

For Jump Troops or characters you could use the vanguard flying autocanon marines back packs to get nice looking thunder hammer HQs and chaplains.