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In a post on the community website they showed a picture of a 3D render of a Bolt Rifle as seen here:
I am not a gun enthusiast myself so I have a question; what is the purpose of the hollow tube above the main barrel? Is it a second barrel? If it is I have never heard anything about bolt weapons shooting two different types of rounds.
I'm also curious as to why the iron sights are blocking the scope, but that's probably more to do with the iron sights being proportioned to show up in miniatures-game scale.
I presumed that it wasn't open at the end (it's not on the models), and is a gas cylinder for automatic reloading.
I've never seen it drilled open.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/20 20:46:54
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I presumed that it wasn't open at the end (it's not on the models), and is a gas cylinder for automatic reloading.
I've never seen it drilled open.
In the pic and in the video it is an open tube. I agree that in all the models they paint it is not drilled and because of that I think it is suppose to be a gas cylinder.
Occasionally it has been shown as a Laser Aiming Module, and I've always assumed it was part of a sensor suite that transmitted targeting data, and the reticle to the HUD of the Space Marine's Helmet Autosenses.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I presumed that it wasn't open at the end (it's not on the models), and is a gas cylinder for automatic reloading.
I've never seen it drilled open.
In the pic and in the video it is an open tube. I agree that in all the models they paint it is not drilled and because of that I think it is suppose to be a gas cylinder.
Maybe it was an error on the animators part.
I thought it was the official / generally admitted idea, too
Yes, but that's a problem with all 40k guns, LRuss would hold about 10 rounds in reality if the model size was accurate, and to avoid recoil you'd have to fire it from outside the turret. It's just GW being GW.
I am a gun nerd and have no idea what that could represent. A gas piston system doesn't need any kind of protrusion further forward than the gas port (example). It might make sense for it to be a recessed enclosure to protect an optics suite for HUD integration, I suppose.
Maybe an artist saw an over-barrel stacking rod and so used it for the original bolter design, then another artist misinterpreted it as a barrel. That sort of thing happens a lot in films and games, actually.
Hellebore wrote: My favourite part is if you compare the internal diameter of the barrel to the magazine, the gun is loaded with about 5 rounds....
Biggest issue with the fantheory 'redbull can' sized rounds.
Gotta go with the written lore, 0.75 cal for regular bolters on up to 1.0cal for heavy bolters. The projectile on a 20mm (0.79cal) autocannon round is bigger than your thumb and hits with enough force to turn a human into a collection of independent limbs. Then you factor in the high-explosive charge...
I guess maybe people read 'less than an inch in diameter' and think that sounds small.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/21 01:13:10
I like how GW gave some thought to the redemptor to make it look like a thing that can actually walk, I just wish they would do the same for their guns. Sometimes I wonder if whoever designed the bolter had ever looked at a gun in real life. I guess on a tiny plastic model your mind fills in all the details to make it plausible, that doesn't work on these detailed 3D models.
Eipi10 wrote: I like how GW gave some thought to the redemptor to make it look like a thing that can actually walk, I just wish they would do the same for their guns. Sometimes I wonder if whoever designed the bolter had ever looked at a gun in real life. I guess on a tiny plastic model your mind fills in all the details to make it plausible, that doesn't work on these detailed 3D models.
At least the ejection port actually lines up with the barrel.
Meanwhile the Palanite Enforcers get a sniper rifle (bottom middle) where the bolt wouldn't be able to move backwards without the bolt handle immediately hitting the receiver frame...
catbarf wrote: I am a gun nerd and have no idea what that could represent. A gas piston system doesn't need any kind of protrusion further forward than the gas port (example). It might make sense for it to be a recessed enclosure to protect an optics suite for HUD integration, I suppose.
Maybe an artist saw an over-barrel stacking rod and so used it for the original bolter design, then another artist misinterpreted it as a barrel. That sort of thing happens a lot in films and games, actually.
Hellebore wrote: My favourite part is if you compare the internal diameter of the barrel to the magazine, the gun is loaded with about 5 rounds....
Biggest issue with the fantheory 'redbull can' sized rounds.
Gotta go with the written lore, 0.75 cal for regular bolters on up to 1.0cal for heavy bolters. The projectile on a 20mm (0.79cal) autocannon round is bigger than your thumb and hits with enough force to turn a human into a collection of independent limbs. Then you factor in the high-explosive charge...
I guess maybe people read 'less than an inch in diameter' and think that sounds small.
Yeah, I can't stand the advertising hyperbole people fall into _ space marines are 10 feet tall and fire Redbull cans!!!omg11
0.75 calibre is plenty big enough.
And at 20mm, even with offset rounds stacked in the magazine, 20 rounds is going to be 30cm long (assuming a 25% overlap within the magazine).
20.rounds is. Nothing. A 30 round magazine is going to be 45cm long (18"). Which if it is in that picture, the gun itself is going to be at least 1.8 metres long.
I wish they'd stop using miniature scale as true scale for everything. No bolt pistols aren't a foot long and the size of a breeze block....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 01:14:09
catbarf wrote: I am a gun nerd and have no idea what that could represent. A gas piston system doesn't need any kind of protrusion further forward than the gas port (example). It might make sense for it to be a recessed enclosure to protect an optics suite for HUD integration, I suppose.
Maybe an artist saw an over-barrel stacking rod and so used it for the original bolter design, then another artist misinterpreted it as a barrel. That sort of thing happens a lot in films and games, actually.
Hellebore wrote: My favourite part is if you compare the internal diameter of the barrel to the magazine, the gun is loaded with about 5 rounds....
Biggest issue with the fantheory 'redbull can' sized rounds.
Gotta go with the written lore, 0.75 cal for regular bolters on up to 1.0cal for heavy bolters. The projectile on a 20mm (0.79cal) autocannon round is bigger than your thumb and hits with enough force to turn a human into a collection of independent limbs. Then you factor in the high-explosive charge...
I guess maybe people read 'less than an inch in diameter' and think that sounds small.
Still too big of a muzzle device compared to the round, when comparing the Bolter to the Marine as the model shows it. Even if it also worked as a weighted compensator its likely too big as the recoil wouldn't be that strong to begin with considering the base cartridge is only enough to propel the round out of the barrel and get it stabilized for when the rocket motor kicks in. The round would also have significantly less impact force from a much lower velocity than an autocannon. It would likely have less of an HE charge as well to account for the rocket in the round's weight.
The closest we currently have to a Bolter is probably the Inkunzi (Neopup) P.A.W., which is a 20x42mm cartridge.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/21 01:14:51
catbarf wrote: I am a gun nerd and have no idea what that could represent. A gas piston system doesn't need any kind of protrusion further forward than the gas port (example). It might make sense for it to be a recessed enclosure to protect an optics suite for HUD integration, I suppose.
Maybe an artist saw an over-barrel stacking rod and so used it for the original bolter design, then another artist misinterpreted it as a barrel. That sort of thing happens a lot in films and games, actually.
Hellebore wrote: My favourite part is if you compare the internal diameter of the barrel to the magazine, the gun is loaded with about 5 rounds....
Biggest issue with the fantheory 'redbull can' sized rounds.
Gotta go with the written lore, 0.75 cal for regular bolters on up to 1.0cal for heavy bolters. The projectile on a 20mm (0.79cal) autocannon round is bigger than your thumb and hits with enough force to turn a human into a collection of independent limbs. Then you factor in the high-explosive charge...
I guess maybe people read 'less than an inch in diameter' and think that sounds small.
A 20mm autocannon is very large for a personal armament, but is small for a vehicle or ship weapon. We think of a 20mm gun as a "little gun" because it mentally falls into the same category as tank guns and ship AA guns, which it's definitely a small weapon compared to.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
GW are generally pretty terrible at firearm design, but we're asking a lot from a science fiction board game. Heroic proportions are commonplace in the gaming world for a couple of reasons:
1) Our tech used to make smaller sculpts in plastic difficult.
2) Bigger is easier to paint and easier to identify on the table.
3) Bigger and chunkier lasts longer. An actual sword in 28/32mm scale would snap the second it touched anything, so...chunkier = more gamer friendly.
etc.
The humble bolt gun has never been consistent in its description, ammo feed, or operation. It's a huge mix in the novels, video games, the tabletop game, etc. Sometimes it's rocket propelled, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's caseless...but has casings ejected in 80% of the art, etc.
Now the gun-geek answer; in theory if the bolt gun was a typical gas-operated firearm, the exposed tube could be an adjustable gas system, but it would be a very oddly shaped/sized/placed one.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A 20mm autocannon is very large for a personal armament, but is small for a vehicle or ship weapon. We think of a 20mm gun as a "little gun" because it mentally falls into the same category as tank guns and ship AA guns, which it's definitely a small weapon compared to.
Not quite. 20mm is about the minimum cannon size for aircraft as far back as WWII, and is the standard ammunition size for current American fighter planes. The Bofors gun seen in a lot of WWII movies was about 40mm, and the AA gun turned on tanks by the Germans were 88mm, though the Bismarck did carry 20x 20mm FlaK guns and the Iowas about 49 of the American equivalent.
To provide more comparisons, the standard heavy machine gun used by the US military has been .50 caliber (about 13mm) with little change in design for almost a century now. The Desert Eagle pistol is the same caliber, with the popular M1911 being .45 caliber (about 11.5mm). The recoilless rifles usually ran in the 75mm range, but some were as small as 57mm.
A regular human could probably fire a 20mm gun, but it would have to be either a crew-served or in a prone sniper position. Most would probably be blown back on to their butt after firing a single shot, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard and Sororitas Boltguns are rated at a smaller caliber than the Astartes lines, but who knows what humanity would be capable of with 28K years of war pressure.
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Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A 20mm autocannon is very large for a personal armament, but is small for a vehicle or ship weapon. We think of a 20mm gun as a "little gun" because it mentally falls into the same category as tank guns and ship AA guns, which it's definitely a small weapon compared to.
Not quite. 20mm is about the minimum cannon size for aircraft as far back as WWII, and is the standard ammunition size for current American fighter planes. The Bofors gun seen in a lot of WWII movies was about 40mm, and the AA gun turned on tanks by the Germans were 88mm, though the Bismarck did carry 20x 20mm FlaK guns and the Iowas about 49 of the American equivalent.
To provide more comparisons, the standard heavy machine gun used by the US military has been .50 caliber (about 13mm) with little change in design for almost a century now. The Desert Eagle pistol is the same caliber, with the popular M1911 being .45 caliber (about 11.5mm). The recoilless rifles usually ran in the 75mm range, but some were as small as 57mm.
A regular human could probably fire a 20mm gun, but it would have to be either a crew-served or in a prone sniper position. Most would probably be blown back on to their butt after firing a single shot, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard and Sororitas Boltguns are rated at a smaller caliber than the Astartes lines, but who knows what humanity would be capable of with 28K years of war pressure.
I know. I may be a girl, but I would say I know more about 20th century conflicts and weapons than your average man.
As for 20mm man-portable weapons, there was at least one Finnish AT rifle in 20mm caliber used during the Winter War and WWII. [L-39] It wasn't very effective against T-34's, [as tended to be the case for AT rifles in general], but they could do damage with a lucky hit and were effective against light armored vehicles, so they made a lot of them. Each one had a 2 man crew [gunner and ammunition bearer] and little skis and were fired prone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 05:12:05
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Bolt rounds are described as rocket-propelled in some fluff, so if they have either a separate boost stage of a slower acceleration it’d totally be possible to fire one standing (same principle as RPGs and anti-tank rifles/surface-air missiles)
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A 20mm autocannon is very large for a personal armament, but is small for a vehicle or ship weapon. We think of a 20mm gun as a "little gun" because it mentally falls into the same category as tank guns and ship AA guns, which it's definitely a small weapon compared to.
Not quite. 20mm is about the minimum cannon size for aircraft as far back as WWII, and is the standard ammunition size for current American fighter planes. The Bofors gun seen in a lot of WWII movies was about 40mm, and the AA gun turned on tanks by the Germans were 88mm, though the Bismarck did carry 20x 20mm FlaK guns and the Iowas about 49 of the American equivalent.
To provide more comparisons, the standard heavy machine gun used by the US military has been .50 caliber (about 13mm) with little change in design for almost a century now. The Desert Eagle pistol is the same caliber, with the popular M1911 being .45 caliber (about 11.5mm). The recoilless rifles usually ran in the 75mm range, but some were as small as 57mm.
A regular human could probably fire a 20mm gun, but it would have to be either a crew-served or in a prone sniper position. Most would probably be blown back on to their butt after firing a single shot, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard and Sororitas Boltguns are rated at a smaller caliber than the Astartes lines, but who knows what humanity would be capable of with 28K years of war pressure.
The weapon in these videos is a 20mm Rifled Grenade Launcher.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The scope should absolutely be mounted a little higher to avoid the front sight post, which itself is completely useless without a rear sight post to go with it. So if the scope itself is damaged, the space marine can't use his iron sights because they don't exist.
As for that tube, it is the first time I have seen it be hollow. I always assumed it to be part of the gas system as it is in the correct place. Possibly a system like the AK-107 which has an additional forward reciprocating piston to counter the recoil from the bolt cycling, this would stick out beyond the front of the main body of the firearm.
I'd chalk it up to the animator making a mistake.
The really interesting thing to know would be how strong the recoil spring would need to be. The bolt would need to be sizable to chamber those large rounds, but it can't be too far in the back of the gun because there needs to be space for the recoil spring. Most of the bolt carrier probably sits forward of the chamber with a long piston protruding forward into the gas tube, and only a small portion hooks back to cradle the bolt itself. The recoil spring would probably be 4-5 nested springs so its strong enough to stop rearward travel, but also be short enough to fit in the 3-5 inches of space it would have.
The trigger group would need to be incredibly small to fit in the leftover space too. It can't be right in front of the trigger itself because thats all part of the magwell.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Defensor Junior grade Manus Wavin, Ordo Apologeticus wrote:The scope mount is mechanised and the bolter is synced to the power armours subsystems. When a marine lifts the bolter with intent to aim/to fire, the scope moves into position automatically, and lowers when he lowers the weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 12:27:28
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A 20mm autocannon is very large for a personal armament, but is small for a vehicle or ship weapon. We think of a 20mm gun as a "little gun" because it mentally falls into the same category as tank guns and ship AA guns, which it's definitely a small weapon compared to.
Not quite. 20mm is about the minimum cannon size for aircraft as far back as WWII, and is the standard ammunition size for current American fighter planes. The Bofors gun seen in a lot of WWII movies was about 40mm, and the AA gun turned on tanks by the Germans were 88mm, though the Bismarck did carry 20x 20mm FlaK guns and the Iowas about 49 of the American equivalent.
To provide more comparisons, the standard heavy machine gun used by the US military has been .50 caliber (about 13mm) with little change in design for almost a century now. The Desert Eagle pistol is the same caliber, with the popular M1911 being .45 caliber (about 11.5mm). The recoilless rifles usually ran in the 75mm range, but some were as small as 57mm.
A regular human could probably fire a 20mm gun, but it would have to be either a crew-served or in a prone sniper position. Most would probably be blown back on to their butt after firing a single shot, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard and Sororitas Boltguns are rated at a smaller caliber than the Astartes lines, but who knows what humanity would be capable of with 28K years of war pressure.
The weapon in these videos is a 20mm Rifled Grenade Launcher.
A Neopup with an additional rocket-assist and fired on full-auto sounds absolutely terrifying to me.
That is probably a good approximation of what a bolter should be like- shoulder-fired low-velocity grenade launchers/light anti-materiel weapons are closer in general profile than high-velocity autocannons.
Defensor Junior grade Manus Wavin, Ordo Apologeticus wrote:The scope mount is mechanised and the bolter is synced to the power armours subsystems. When a marine lifts the bolter with intent to aim/to fire, the scope moves into position automatically, and lowers when he lowers the weapon.
Can you say 'non-repeatable zero'?
(IRL putting moving parts on optics is generally a sure-fire way to have them never line up the same way twice, but for fictional future-technology I can buy that explanation)
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I know. I may be a girl, but I would say I know more about 20th century conflicts and weapons than your average man.
Nothing was addressed to your sex, so no need to bring it up. I was more addressing how a 20mm is mentally thought of, and maybe it's just because I'm an aircraft enthusiast, I usually see the 20mm as an aircraft weapon more than a ship or tank weapon. The other paragraphs were more for general address.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:The weapon in these videos is a 20mm Rifled Grenade Launcher.
True. I was looking at more of a direct fire round than an AoE Weapon, as the Boltgun generally is not considered firing grenade equivalents.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
The closest we currently have to a Bolter is probably the Inkunzi (Neopup) P.A.W., which is a 20x42mm cartridge.
I'd say the XM-25 was the closes, firing 25mm explosive rounds and being fed from a 5-round box magazine. And one of the complaints that led to it's cancellation was small explosive payload.
Cronch wrote: Yes, but that's a problem with all 40k guns, LRuss would hold about 10 rounds in reality if the model size was accurate, and to avoid recoil you'd have to fire it from outside the turret. It's just GW being GW.
I always thought about the LRK Gun as a Gaussrifle/Coil Gun with sub calibre shells, no recoil and enough space to store and load ammunition
anything else would be impossible
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Remember, when we're discussing stuff like caliber, 20mm is only one of the attributes. If you said "Oh, this is 20mm..." that just means the diameter of the round is 20mm. It doesn't mention or address the powder charge or length/weight of the actual round.
So a 20mm cartridge could be fat and short, with less powder/range/power, etc. It's why we refer to normal rifle cartridges by their full name in many instances, such as 5.56x45 or 7.62x39. The latter part describing the length of the powder cartridge behind the round.
Both of these pictured rounds are .50 caliber. One fits in a pistol...the other can fly 2+ miles.
