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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I feel that in previous editions gauss was vital for the necron army to function. We weren't fast moving and we didn't have high AP or long range, but the rapid fire gauss weapons helped compensate. 40 shots from warriors would glance a tank to death.
In 8th edition we'd need the potential to do 12 or more wounds with the same volume of fire.

Focusing purely on gauss, how do we fix it? I don't think the extra AP in the current edition is much help. Ideas?
   
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A mortal wound on 6's to hit in addition to normal damage.

It effectively whet we had in 3rd.

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Could try something different and give them different profiles based on distance:

Gauss flayer 6" assault 2 s6 ap-3
12" assault 2 S5 ap-2
24" rapid fire 1 S4 ap-1

   
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A mortal wound on 6's to hit is bonkers strong, a similar buff could be achieved by making it 6's autowound instead (similar to the infiltrators weapon)
   
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Our main gun should be a bit bonkers.

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6's already autowound. Maybe I'm missing something about the infiltrator weapon?
   
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I believe they mean that 6's To Hit auto-wound without you needing to make a To Wound roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 06:11:01


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punisher357 wrote:
6's already autowound. Maybe I'm missing something about the infiltrator weapon?


There is no such thing as auto wounds on 6s.
   
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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I believe they mean that 6's To Hit auto-wound without you needing to make a To Wound roll.


Yeah should've made that clear, 6's to hit autowound.

The reason why it absolutely should NOT be 6's to hit do a MW is because a squad of 20 warriors now put out 6-7 mortal wounds in RF, while with MWBD that number doubles out to 13-14 and that doesn't consider the standard damage from the gauss rifles.
   
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Vilehydra wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I believe they mean that 6's To Hit auto-wound without you needing to make a To Wound roll.


Yeah should've made that clear, 6's to hit autowound.

The reason why it absolutely should NOT be 6's to hit do a MW is because a squad of 20 warriors now put out 6-7 mortal wounds in RF, while with MWBD that number doubles out to 13-14 and that doesn't consider the standard damage from the gauss rifles.

The squad of 20 Warriors with the durability of wet tissue paper that won't be able to get anywhere without the minimum of a relic + 80+ point HQ?

Yeah I don't think people are REALLY going to care.

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Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

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ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Could be 1MW on unmodified wound roll of 6 only against vehicles, or unmodified 6s are AP-3 against vehicles.
   
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I'd suggest

Rolls of 6+ to hit auto-wound
and
unmodified 6s to wound deal double damage

That gives you more wounds, and more punishing wounds, without relying on the broken Mortal Wounds Mechanic

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I don't know if the broad buffs to gauss weapons are the right approach to fixing Necrons. Considering the Necrons for my own global rewrite project I've been looking at trying to do something different; gauss flayer spam shouldn't be an anti-tank weapon just because spamming any one weapon shouldn't be an efficient answer to everything, so I've been considering how to turn Immortals into more of a heavy support weapons unit sort of how they work in Dawn of War instead.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't know if the broad buffs to gauss weapons are the right approach to fixing Necrons. Considering the Necrons for my own global rewrite project I've been looking at trying to do something different; gauss flayer spam shouldn't be an anti-tank weapon just because spamming any one weapon shouldn't be an efficient answer to everything.


I see where you're coming from. The counter to that argument, I think, is that 'crons' model range was developed with the assumption that gauss weapons en masse could be a viable answer to vehicles. Currently, they're kind of not, and that forces you to pick from a relatively small number of dedicated AT units. That, combined with the fact that some AT options (like monoliths) aren't very points efficient means that you end up with a lack of list diversity and a pile of units that don't get taken because you have to pay the "anti tank tax."

Boosting the AT of gauss immortals is a good move in my book (lets them compete less directly with warriors), but it might also just be adding one more unit to the short list of viable AT options. If you made gauss flayers good against vehicles when taken en masse, then it spreads your AT around a lot and takes pressure off the rest of your picks to be the only AT in your army.

   
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 p5freak wrote:
punisher357 wrote:
6's already autowound. Maybe I'm missing something about the infiltrator weapon?


There is no such thing as auto wounds on 6s.


Wound roll of a 6 causes a wound regardless of toughness and weapon strength was what I was referring to. I should have specified


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I believe they mean that 6's To Hit auto-wound without you needing to make a To Wound roll.


Yeah should've made that clear, 6's to hit autowound.

The reason why it absolutely should NOT be 6's to hit do a MW is because a squad of 20 warriors now put out 6-7 mortal wounds in RF, while with MWBD that number doubles out to 13-14 and that doesn't consider the standard damage from the gauss rifles.

The squad of 20 Warriors with the durability of wet tissue paper that won't be able to get anywhere without the minimum of a relic + 80+ point HQ?

Yeah I don't think people are REALLY going to care.


When you factor in ghost arks I think that it would be too strong. I could see wound rolls of a 6 cause a mortal wound in addition to normal damage though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't know if the broad buffs to gauss weapons are the right approach to fixing Necrons. Considering the Necrons for my own global rewrite project I've been looking at trying to do something different; gauss flayer spam shouldn't be an anti-tank weapon just because spamming any one weapon shouldn't be an efficient answer to everything, so I've been considering how to turn Immortals into more of a heavy support weapons unit sort of how they work in Dawn of War instead.


I don't think it would fix necrons, there are too many other issues, but that's not the point of this thread. However, I think a gauss buff would help.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/23 06:04:14


 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I believe they mean that 6's To Hit auto-wound without you needing to make a To Wound roll.


Yeah should've made that clear, 6's to hit autowound.

The reason why it absolutely should NOT be 6's to hit do a MW is because a squad of 20 warriors now put out 6-7 mortal wounds in RF, while with MWBD that number doubles out to 13-14 and that doesn't consider the standard damage from the gauss rifles.

The squad of 20 Warriors with the durability of wet tissue paper that won't be able to get anywhere without the minimum of a relic + 80+ point HQ?

Yeah I don't think people are REALLY going to care.


Try 2 ghost arks for 20 pts more. Fly 14", T6, quantum shield, throws in same amount of gauss flayers.

Howabout something like:

2 overlords, cryptek, 2x6+5 tesla immortal, 3+2 heavy destroyers, 3 dda, 7 ghost arks.

Okay no MWBD but that's at 24" 70 shots causing 11 mortal wounds. Get into rf range and 22 mortal wounds. Plus 3 doomsday arks, 5 heavy destroyers...

Want to face that? (not even nastiest list. Just something I came quickly on the spot)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 07:26:58


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What if 6s to wound cause an additional wound instead of mortal wounds?

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 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What if 6s to wound cause an additional wound instead of mortal wounds?


Yes. 6s to wound cause 2 wounds instead of 1 on a failed save.
I'd add on the 6s to hit cause a wound regardless of strength and toughness as suggested in my post above.

That way you secure more wounds, and some of your wounds are more punishing, without spamming mortals.


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MajorStoffer wrote:
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Why not have it so it reads:

If a gauss weapon rolls a 6 to hit, add +1 to the wound roll and the damage is also doubled (to a maximum of 6). For example if a gauss weapon is D1 this becomes D2, if a gauss weapon is D3 and you roll a 4 to deal 2 damage this becomes 4. The opponents save roll and weapon AP are applied as normal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 09:45:54


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No...

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40 gauss flayer shots average out...
GEQ: 27 hits, 18 wounds, 18 unsaved, 18 kills
MEQ: 27 hits, 13 wounds, 9 unsaved, 9 kills (4.5 vs Primaris)
TEQ: 27 hits, 13 wounds, 6 unsaved, 3 kills
Rhino: 27 hits, 9 wounds, 6 unsaved (out of 10)
Leman Russ: 27 hits, 5 wounds, 3 unsaved (out of 12)

40 gauss flayer shots that autowound on a 6 to hit average out...
GEQ: 27 hits, 20 wounds, 20 unsaved, 20 kills
MEQ: 27 hits, 17 wounds, 12 unsaved, 12 kills (6 vs Primaris)
TEQ: 27 hits, 17 wounds, 8 unsaved, 4 kills
Rhino: 27 hits, 13 wounds, 8 unsaved (out of 10)
Leman Russ: 27 hits, 10 wounds, 6 unsaved (out of 12)

In principle, definitely the right direction. In practice, still not quite what they used to in anti-vehicle terms because of how wound tables work compared to the old damage tables. Can't give them D2, either, or they'll shred Primaris.
   
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Proccing D2 would not Shred Primaris. I think that's the way to go to be honest: wounds of 6+ add 1 to the damage characteristic. It doesn't help against hordes but Tesla has that covered.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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RevlidRas wrote:
40 gauss flayer shots average out...
GEQ: 27 hits, 18 wounds, 18 unsaved, 18 kills
MEQ: 27 hits, 13 wounds, 9 unsaved, 9 kills (4.5 vs Primaris)
TEQ: 27 hits, 13 wounds, 6 unsaved, 3 kills
Rhino: 27 hits, 9 wounds, 6 unsaved (out of 10)
Leman Russ: 27 hits, 5 wounds, 3 unsaved (out of 12)

40 gauss flayer shots that autowound on a 6 to hit average out...
GEQ: 27 hits, 20 wounds, 20 unsaved, 20 kills
MEQ: 27 hits, 17 wounds, 12 unsaved, 12 kills (6 vs Primaris)
TEQ: 27 hits, 17 wounds, 8 unsaved, 4 kills
Rhino: 27 hits, 13 wounds, 8 unsaved (out of 10)
Leman Russ: 27 hits, 10 wounds, 6 unsaved (out of 12)

In principle, definitely the right direction. In practice, still not quite what they used to in anti-vehicle terms because of how wound tables work compared to the old damage tables. Can't give them D2, either, or they'll shred Primaris.


Aren't Gauss flayers AP1? The math is slightly off on the save portion if so.

Regardless
Consider if it stacks with MWBD the same way tesla does. (I ignored saves because they aren't directly relevant)
Current gauss with MWBD
T3: 22 Wounds
T4: 16 Wounds
T7: 11 Wounds
T8: 5 wounds

Gauss with Autowound on 6's to hit and MWBD
T3: 26 Wounds (~15% Increase)
T4: 23 Wounds (~30% Increase)
T7: 20 Wounds (~81% Increase)
T8: 16 Wounds (~220% increase)

With MWBD active and 40 shots, 1/3 of those shots just wound - meaning 13.3 wounds from the roll to hit step. This doesn't scale with how tough a unit is. Against lower T units, some of those autowounding hits would have probably been wounds anyways. But against higher T units the static 13.3 becomes a larger percentage of wounds.

Tesla is still the choice for chaff clearing, but between the better AP and increased to wound rate gauss could be a better generalist option
There is also the added benefit of whenever the unit overwatches, they automatically wound when they hit.
   
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Vilehydra wrote:
Aren't Gauss flayers AP1? The math is slightly off on the save portion if so.
Whoops, yes! Spend too much time playing against gauss blasters, I think...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 02:44:28


 
   
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I think mortal wounds on a 6 to wound is fine, but on a six to hit is too much

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/04 06:01:39


 
   
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Maybe a silly suggestion, but what if gauss weapons just treated their damage as 1 higher against vehicles and monsters?

So a gauss flayer against a primaris marine would be damage 1, but against a rhino, it would be damage 2.

In the past, the advantage of gauss weapons was that they could threaten vehicles when taken en masse, but they never had any special benefit against infantry. "Mortal wounds on to-wound rolls of 6" is similar to this but runs into a couple weird interactions with how mortal wounds work (like spilling wounds over onto the second vehicle in a squadron).

It doesn't make a squad of warriors a dedicated anti-tank unit, but it does make them enough of a threat to tanks that you don't have to spam destroyers and doomsday arks to have a chance against an armored company.
   
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That actually sounds like a fairly reasonable suggestion, particularly Warriors.

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That change would give the keyword system more mileage, yes.
That's a problem I have with GW's use of keywords; they introduced keywords, but nothing really interacts with them. If you are going to have a keyword system, use it for more than 1 or 2 weapons.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That change would give the keyword system more mileage, yes.
That's a problem I have with GW's use of keywords; they introduced keywords, but nothing really interacts with them. If you are going to have a keyword system, use it for more than 1 or 2 weapons.


Might be my drukhari bias showing, but off the top of my head...
* All types of poison weapons (of which there are roughly 10 I think) are weaker against the vehicle keyword.
* Haywire weapons (found in DE, CW, and harlequin armies) are stronger against vehicles
* Shredders are stronger against the infantry keyword
* Wyches' No Escape only works on infantry
* Lelith gets bonuses against characters

So those keywords are definitely seeing some use, at least by my spooky elves.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That change would give the keyword system more mileage, yes.
That's a problem I have with GW's use of keywords; they introduced keywords, but nothing really interacts with them. If you are going to have a keyword system, use it for more than 1 or 2 weapons.


Might be my drukhari bias showing, but off the top of my head...
* All types of poison weapons (of which there are roughly 10 I think) are weaker against the vehicle keyword.
* Haywire weapons (found in DE, CW, and harlequin armies) are stronger against vehicles
* Shredders are stronger against the infantry keyword
* Wyches' No Escape only works on infantry
* Lelith gets bonuses against characters

So those keywords are definitely seeing some use, at least by my spooky elves.


See, that's how it should be. I don't think any other army gets that much usage out of keywords.
Necrons and Orks certainly don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/02 21:50:07


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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

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