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Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd






I think everyone agrees that a FREEBOOTERS unit embarked in an open topped FREEBOOTERS transport gets the +1 to hit from competitive streak according to the open topped rule.

But can a freebooters unit embarked in a open topped freebooterz transport trigger competitive streak if it destroys a enemy unit in its shooting phase ?

I've looked for the answer but could not find it anywhere. I guess it is no, but I would very much like the contrary.

Bonus Question :

My last opponent and me were disagreing about if an embarked unit that disembark from an open topped transport that is engaged in melee can shoot/charge or not.
But I wasn't able to find any clear answer and struggled to express my point because I'm not really rule savy.
I guess it has to do with the fact that the unit disembarks before any transport fall back, so there is not restriction to apply to the unit.
or is it that the unit loose any modifier / restriction the moment it disembarks ?

Or am I wrong and disembarking count as fall back in this case ?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/06 14:27:06


 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 IronSlug wrote:
I think everyone agrees that a FREEBOOTERS unit embarked in an open topped FREEBOOTERS transport gets the +1 to hit from competitive streak according to the open topped rule.


Unknown. Normally, restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers. But GW says :

Q: The Battlewagon’s Mobile Fortress ability says the
Battlewagon ‘ignores the penalty for moving and firing Heavy
weapons’, and its Open-topped ability says that ‘restrictions or
modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers’.
Does that mean that an embarked unit also ignores the penalty
for firing Heavy weapons if the Battlewagon has moved?
A: No.


If they cant benefit from the ignore move and shoot heavy weapons, they wouldnt get the +1 to hit either.


 IronSlug wrote:

But can a freebooters unit embarked in a open topped freebooterz transport trigger competitive streak if it destroys a enemy unit in its shooting phase ?

Unknown. Judging from this FAQ, i would say no.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.


If you cant use stratagems on embarked units, they shouldnt be able to trigger their clan kultur.

 IronSlug wrote:

My last opponent and me were disagreing about if an embarked unit that disembark from an open topped transport that is engaged in melee can shoot/charge or not.
But I wasn't able to find any clear answer and struggled to express my point because I'm not really rule savy.
I guess it has to do with the fact that the unit disembarks before any transport fall back, so there is not restriction to apply to the unit.
or is it that the unit loose any modifier / restriction the moment it disembarks ?

Or am I wrong and disembarking count as fall back in this case ?


Yes, they can. Normally, they wouldnt be able to, because restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers. But GW ruled against it twice in the FAQs. Judging from that, they should ignore the restriction that they cant charge after falling back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 15:14:05


 
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd






Yeah well, I'd really like to try and use trukks despite finding them (my opinion only) rather bad, but if it also opens this much to possible arguments with my opponent, I'll pass... maybe in 9th but I really doubt it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 16:29:40


 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

Can they benefit from Competitive Streak? Yes. It is a Modifier. The Battlewagon FAQ doesn't reference either a Modifier or a Restriction.

Can they trigger Competitive Streak? No. You have to measure from the unit, and when you're Embarked you're not on the board to be measured from.

Disembarking doesn't count as Falling Back, so you can shoot, charge, whatever after Disembarking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 16:53:39


 
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd






Ow, ok would anyone have any reference for the last point ?
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot






 IronSlug wrote:
Ow, ok would anyone have any reference for the last point ?


Can;t find reference as not at home. But the engaged combat vehicle thing is true. Because the disembark rule is you end the disembark within 3" away from vehicle, and more than 1" away from enemy. (This means you can disembark through enemies).

A unit hat disembarks can then move, shoot, charge everything. So If the vehicle was not completely surrounded and as such "fell back" by driving away. Then that unit that disembarked before the vehicle drove off can shoot and charge that unit now left there.

*Edit if the vehicle falls back first the unit inside can still freely do everything. Fall back isn't a de-buff it's a type of move. The unit inside doesn't get a de-buff because there isn;t one. So they can do everything as normal as their "move" is the disembark and normal stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 17:05:11


5500
2500 
   
Made in us
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Douglasville, GA

It's in the FAQs somewhere.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





You can only fall back if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. Units inside of transport cannot be within 1" of anything.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Germany

 Jidmah wrote:
You can only fall back if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. Units inside of transport cannot be within 1" of anything.


But open topped says that restrictions and modifiers to the transport also apply to the embarked unit. Now, the question is, does the disembarking unit count as disembarking, and can act normally, or does the restriction of not being able to fall back and shoot, which applies to the transport, also applies to the embarked unit ? Do they fall back, or do they disembark ?
   
Made in de
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 p5freak wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
You can only fall back if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. Units inside of transport cannot be within 1" of anything.


But open topped says that restrictions and modifiers to the transport also apply to the embarked unit. Now, the question is, does the disembarking unit count as disembarking, and can act normally, or does the restriction of not being able to fall back and shoot, which applies to the transport, also applies to the embarked unit ? Do they fall back, or do they disembark ?


There used to be a time where quoting rules was mandatory on YMDC /oldman

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.


Unless you somehow manage to fall back while shooting out of an open topped transport, restrictions do not apply.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/09 15:05:12


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
You can only fall back if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. Units inside of transport cannot be within 1" of anything.


But open topped says that restrictions and modifiers to the transport also apply to the embarked unit. Now, the question is, does the disembarking unit count as disembarking, and can act normally, or does the restriction of not being able to fall back and shoot, which applies to the transport, also applies to the embarked unit ? Do they fall back, or do they disembark ?


There used to be a time where quoting rules was mandatory on YMDC /oldman

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.


Unless you somehow manage to fall back while shooting out of an open topped transport, restrictions do not apply.


Ok, looks like its restrictions and modifiers during the shooting phase only.
   
Made in de
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Also, only when attacking, not for any other abilities you do instead of shooting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I would question whether the embarked unit CAN benefit from the +1 to hit, given this:

Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.


If a +1 to hit aura wouldn't carry over from the transport to the embarked unit (if it would still carry over because the transport gets it, this answer makes zero sense and is deeply misleading), why would a +1 to hit ability triggered by being within 24 inches of another unit? This seems like an aura in practice, so you would think the same rules would apply.

As for triggering the effect - this is clearly a no, because embarked units aren't on the table and therefore no other unit can possibly be within 24 inches of them. It's the same reason that an embarked character with an aura can't project the aura out of the transport.

edit: There is one bizarre situation in which the effect would trigger. If the embarked unit eliminates a unit in the shooting phase, then the transport they are in is destroyed in the same phase - say it destroys itself with plasma, or you kill a unit that can shoot back when it dies / explodes, and the retaliation/explosion kills your transport - after the embarked unit exits the destroyed transport, THEN they would be able to trigger the kulture for any further shots by other units in your army that phase, because at THAT point, your unit (1) has eliminated a unit in the phase and (2) is on the board, so able to project the 24 inch bubble.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 05:25:24


 
   
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Douglasville, GA

The FAQ and transfer of Modifiers do not conflict with each other. The "aura" isn't affecting the unit inside the Transport. It's affecting the Transport. And as per Open-Topped, all modifiers and restrictions affecting the Transport are transferred to the unit inside the Transport.
   
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Germany

 flandarz wrote:
The FAQ and transfer of Modifiers do not conflict with each other. The "aura" isn't affecting the unit inside the Transport. It's affecting the Transport. And as per Open-Topped, all modifiers and restrictions affecting the Transport are transferred to the unit inside the Transport.


The answer is still no, short and simple. Units inside an open topped transports are not affected by aura abilities. This overrules the open topped rule.
   
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Douglasville, GA

Again, the unit isn't being affected by the aura ability. The Transport is. In this case, the "aura" gives the Transport a +1 to hit. Because there is a modifier affecting the Transport, the unit inside is also affected by the modifier. There is no conflict, the aura continues to not affect the unit inside, who is instead affected by the requirement that it shares the modifiers on the transport.

Otherwise, we're looking at situations where the Supersonic rule doesn't affect an Embarked unit (it is, essentially, an aura with infinite range, after all).
   
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 flandarz wrote:
Again, the unit isn't being affected by the aura ability. The Transport is. In this case, the "aura" gives the Transport a +1 to hit. Because there is a modifier affecting the Transport, the unit inside is also affected by the modifier. There is no conflict, the aura continues to not affect the unit inside, who is instead affected by the requirement that it shares the modifiers on the transport.

Otherwise, we're looking at situations where the Supersonic rule doesn't affect an Embarked unit (it is, essentially, an aura with infinite range, after all).


The unit inside doesnt get the aura ability transferred from the Transport, because the FAQ says no. Open topped is overruled by this.
   
Made in us
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Douglasville, GA

The FAQ states that a unit embarked cannot be affected by an aura ability. And it remains unaffected by the aura ability. It is affected by Open-Topped, which transfers modifiers and restrictions, but does not transfer auras. So you only have to ask whether or not there is a modifier affecting the Transport. If the answer is yes, then the unit inside the Transport is also affected by that modifier (but not the aura ability that generated it).

Not that I'll complain if it turns out I'm wrong, cuz it sure would be nice to not have to worry about those -3s to hit the Eldar like to throw out.

And this is aside from the fact that the Freebooterz trait isn't an aura anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 12:39:40


 
   
Made in de
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Germany

The FAQ is a special snowflake FAQ that goes against RAW, GW has done that multiple times.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
The FAQ is a special snowflake FAQ that goes against RAW, GW has done that multiple times.


Modifiers are conferred to the passengers when shooting, no matter what the source of that modifier is.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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 flandarz wrote:
Again, the unit isn't being affected by the aura ability. The Transport is. In this case, the "aura" gives the Transport a +1 to hit. Because there is a modifier affecting the Transport, the unit inside is also affected by the modifier. There is no conflict, the aura continues to not affect the unit inside, who is instead affected by the requirement that it shares the modifiers on the transport.

Otherwise, we're looking at situations where the Supersonic rule doesn't affect an Embarked unit (it is, essentially, an aura with infinite range, after all).


But that's not what the FAQ actually says. It doesn't say "embarked units can't benefit from auras," it says that the embarked unit doesn't get the benefit of an aura the transport is in range of, period. If they still get it as a pass-through from the transport due to open-topped, the answer is hugely misleading and incomplete, and it'd be totally stupid to have answered it the way they did. In that case, they would have added a "However, if the transport is affected by an aura that provides a modifier, this will pass to the embarked units via open-topped" clarification.

The open-topped rule is a complete mess and it's extremely unclear what passes on and what doesn't. Based on the rule itself, you would think the +1 would pass on. But the FAQs that limit heavy weapons and auras suggests that probably isn't the case. It's anyone's guess what the rule actually is at this point.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
The FAQ is a special snowflake FAQ that goes against RAW, GW has done that multiple times.


Modifiers are conferred to the passengers when shooting, no matter what the source of that modifier is.


Even if the source of a modifier is an aura that impacts the transport, despite the FAQ specifically saying embarked units don't get impacted by auras that cover the transport? That is basically an argument that the FAQ is hugely misleading and incomplete in its treatment of the question it answers. The question is whether an embarked unit in an open-topped transport gets the benefit of an aura that covers the transport. If the answer is "no, but they get any modifier bonuses from the aura that impact the transport because of open-topped even though technically it's transferred from the vehicle rather than from the aura directly" why didn't they say that? Just saying "no" creates a totally different impression and doesn't actually answer the question being asked in a meaningful way.

I mean this is GW, it's hardly impossible. But I'm not sure you can just assume the FAQ answers its own question that badly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 16:25:16


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Even if the source of a modifier is an aura that impacts the transport,

Even then yes.
despite the FAQ specifically saying embarked units don't get impacted by auras that cover the transport?

The unit inside is not affected by the aura. The transport is. The unit is affected by the modifier part of the open topped rule.

That is basically an argument that the FAQ is hugely misleading and incomplete in its treatment of the question it answers. The question is whether an embarked unit in an open-topped transport gets the benefit of an aura that covers the transport. If the answer is "no, but they get any modifier bonuses from the aura that impact the transport because of open-topped even though technically it's transferred from the vehicle rather than from the aura directly" why didn't they say that?

The absence of a clarification does not mean the opposite is true.

Just saying "no" creates a totally different impression and doesn't actually answer the question being asked in a meaningful way.

I mean this is GW, it's hardly impossible. But I'm not sure you can just assume the FAQ answers its own question that badly.

Only if you read too much into it and assume that is an universally true rule rather than a clarification. Units inside transports are never affected by any auras, as an aura requires measurement, and you can't measure to or from any embarked units.
It does not mean that a unit ignores all effects of any aura ability - for example, if Mortarion's aura kills their transport, they still suffer losses from rolling ones before disembarking. If they shoot a unit of Dark Angels near Azrael, those marines still get to take 4++ save and if they kill a unit next to Yvraine, it still gets to regenerate wounds.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Jidmah wrote:

It does not mean that a unit ignores all effects of any aura ability - for example, if Mortarion's aura kills their transport, they still suffer losses from rolling ones before disembarking. If they shoot a unit of Dark Angels near Azrael, those marines still get to take 4++ save and if they kill a unit next to Yvraine, it still gets to regenerate wounds.


None of those examples address the issue, because there it is other units being impacted by the auras, not the unit in the transport. Of course other units can get the benefit of auras when being shot by a unit in an open-topped transport. Why wouldn't they? That's got nothing to do with whether the embarked unit can get the benefit of an aura that affects their transport via passthrough on the open-topped rule.

The way the FAQ answers the question makes no sense if the aura can still pass to the embarked unit through the transport. The whole point of a FAQ is to clear things up; if we take your point of view on this, the FAQ obscures more than it explains. That basically requires assuming the FAQ doesn't really answer what it's purporting to answer because the question it's answering isn't the important question. And we have to assume they deliberately chose to answer the question that doesn't matter instead of the question that does matter. When they could have answered the question that matters by just adding a short sentence making clear that the embarked unit can get the benefit of the aura through the transport even if it doesn't technically get the aura itself. It just seems downright odd to assume the FAQ dodges the question that matters (does the unit get the benefit?) while focusing on the one that doesn't matter (how the benefit is technically gained).
   
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Douglasville, GA

Well, let's shift gears real quick. Regardless of whether Open-Topped means Modifiers which affect a Transport via an aura means the Embarked unit is required to use these Modifiers (which, again, would mean they'd be unaffected by 90% of to-hit penalties as even things like Supersonic could be viewed as an aura with infinite range), the Freebooterz Kultur trait isn't even an aura. Not in the way that 40k defines auras. So the argument that it wouldn't transfer is moot.
   
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 flandarz wrote:
Well, let's shift gears real quick. Regardless of whether Open-Topped means Modifiers which affect a Transport via an aura means the Embarked unit is required to use these Modifiers (which, again, would mean they'd be unaffected by 90% of to-hit penalties as even things like Supersonic could be viewed as an aura with infinite range), the Freebooterz Kultur trait isn't even an aura. Not in the way that 40k defines auras. So the argument that it wouldn't transfer is moot.


Is aura ever defined anywhere? I thought it was just a way of describing any effect that hits models within X inches.

Freebooterz impacts anything within 24 inches of the model under certain circumstances. Seems like an aura to me. The fact that it doesn't have 100% uptime surely isn't the deciding factor in whether it's an aura or not. Otherwise you'd end up with ridiculous results like a KFF being an aura but a boosted KFF (the 3cp strat) not being an aura.

I'm not sure what you mean by supersonic - do you mean hard to hit? Supersonic is the rule that deals with flyer movement, so I dunno why that would have any relevance to the embarked units one way or the other. And hard to hit isn't an aura because it doesn't have a range, it's just a characteristic of the model. So of course embarked units shooting at a hard to hit unit still suffer the -1 penalty. The whole thing with embarked units is they aren't within X inches of anything. An effect that doesn't have an X inches limitation doesn't implicate this one way or the other.

But I agree with the more general observation that the open-topped rule has unclear interactions with lots of effects. That's kind-of my whole point. The whole rule is a mess of contradictions, especially when combined with the FAQs. It's clear as mud. Until that FAQ that said that mobile fortress doesn't apply to the embarked units, it was plausible to say it's simple, anything that impacts the transport impacts the embarked units. But then they called all that into question with that FAQ, and then called it all into question again with the auras and open-topped FAQ. Now it's clear as mud what the rule is supposed to do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 00:08:34


 
   
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Douglasville, GA

It isn't the uptime that matters. It's the fact that the destruction or movement of the "providing" unit doesn't stop the "aura" from affecting the initial targets (who can also move and still retain it). In every other case, when a unit providing an aura is destroyed, it no longer provides that aura. That's what I mean by it not fitting with every other aura in the game. The only similarity it has is a range.

And yes, that's what I meant. Generally attached to Supersonic units, so I mixed them up.
   
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 flandarz wrote:
It isn't the uptime that matters. It's the fact that the destruction or movement of the "providing" unit doesn't stop the "aura" from affecting the initial targets (who can also move and still retain it). In every other case, when a unit providing an aura is destroyed, it no longer provides that aura. That's what I mean by it not fitting with every other aura in the game. The only similarity it has is a range.


Oh, I see what you mean. I'm not sure that's right though.

Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if
any other friendly unit with this kultur within 24" has destroyed
an enemy unit this phase.


The way I read the rule, you check for the +1 when you fire the unit. If a unit somehow both destroyed a unit in the shooting phase and then got destroyed itself in that same shooting phase (or moved out of 24 inches in the shooting phase after shooting - I don't think any freebooterz unit in an ork army can do this, but in theory if it could), I don't think you'd get the +1, because there isn't a unit that destroyed something within 24 inches any more when you go to shoot the other unit. I think the unit that triggers the rule still has to be on the table within 24 inches in order to give the benefit. So in that respect it seems like any other aura.

   
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Douglasville, GA

I think the big difference is that it doesn't say:

Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if any other friendly unit with this kultur is within 24" and has destroyed an enemy unit this phase.


As it stands, it's ambiguous at best, and at worst agrees with my accessment that the unit doesn't need to remain within range. As I read it, when the unit in question destroys an enemy unit, it sends out a "burst" to the units around it.

Edit: I know this is arguing semantics, but the way GW writes rules, you kinda HAVE to dig into the semantics to make things work.

Alternatively, the could have said:

Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this Kultur if they are within 24" of another friendly unit with this Kultur that has destroyed an enemy unit this phase

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 01:21:29


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

It does not mean that a unit ignores all effects of any aura ability - for example, if Mortarion's aura kills their transport, they still suffer losses from rolling ones before disembarking. If they shoot a unit of Dark Angels near Azrael, those marines still get to take 4++ save and if they kill a unit next to Yvraine, it still gets to regenerate wounds.


None of those examples address the issue, because there it is other units being impacted by the auras, not the unit in the transport.

How about not hand-waving all those examples?
If Mortarion's aura kills the transport, the unit inside suffers casualties when rolling ones. According to your logic, an embarked unit may not interact with auras in any way and therefore cannot lose models from disembarking because of an aura.
If Azrael is protecting the targets of some flash gits, those 4++ saves would block their damage. According to your logic, an embarked unit may not interact with auras in any way and therefore saves provided by an aura cannot be taken against shots from embarked passengers

Of course other units can get the benefit of auras when being shot by a unit in an open-topped transport. Why wouldn't they? That's got nothing to do with whether the embarked unit can get the benefit of an aura that affects their transport via passthrough on the open-topped rule.

It's got everything to do with that. Either auras can affect passengers indirectly, or they can't. If you claim that auras have absolutely no way of affecting passengers whatsoever, all those examples above are valid as well.

The way the FAQ answers the question makes no sense if the aura can still pass to the embarked unit through the transport. The whole point of a FAQ is to clear things up; if we take your point of view on this, the FAQ obscures more than it explains. That basically requires assuming the FAQ doesn't really answer what it's purporting to answer because the question it's answering isn't the important question.

The simple problem is that you are inventing rules. There is no such thing as "passing through".

Freeboota trukk is within 24". Freeboota transport is affected by aura.
Passengers are not within 24". Passengers are not affected by aura.
Freeboota trukk has +1 to hit modifier. Passengers are affected by open topped rule when shooting.

Once you realize that it works like that, the answer from the FAQ makes perfect sense.

And we have to assume they deliberately chose to answer the question that doesn't matter instead of the question that does matter. When they could have answered the question that matters by just adding a short sentence making clear that the embarked unit can get the benefit of the aura through the transport even if it doesn't technically get the aura itself. It just seems downright odd to assume the FAQ dodges the question that matters (does the unit get the benefit?) while focusing on the one that doesn't matter (how the benefit is technically gained).

Once again, assuming that the lack of clarification is evidence of the opposite is a fallacy. There vast majority of auras that can be applied to open topped transports do not confer modifiers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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I didn't hand-wave anything. Your examples didn't involve auras affecting the shooting unit, it involved auras effecting the unit being shot at (or the transport being blown up). This is something totally different from the question of whether an aura that hits the transport transfers the modifier to the unit via open-topped. There is no relationship between the two at all. If Mort's aura blows up a transport the units inside roll to see if they die because they're disembarking from a destroyed transport, not because of an aura. If they're shooting at something inside a KFF bubble, it's the unit they're shooting at that has the bubble, not the embarked unit. So of course the units being shot get it. This has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about. Nobody said auras can never indirectly influence an embarked unit in that way, just that based on the wording of the FAQ, it calls into question whether a +1 to hit aura on a transport would transfer.

I don't agree that the FAQ makes perfect sense. It makes no sense at all to be for them not to a caveat about the aura indirectly impacting the embarked units through a modifier to the transport if that's what they meant.

But I think we're just going around in circles at this point. You think it makes sense, I don't. It seems unlikely either of us is going to change our minds at this point. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flandarz wrote:
I think the big difference is that it doesn't say:

Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if any other friendly unit with this kultur is within 24" and has destroyed an enemy unit this phase.


As it stands, it's ambiguous at best, and at worst agrees with my accessment that the unit doesn't need to remain within range. As I read it, when the unit in question destroys an enemy unit, it sends out a "burst" to the units around it.

Edit: I know this is arguing semantics, but the way GW writes rules, you kinda HAVE to dig into the semantics to make things work.

Alternatively, the could have said:

Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this Kultur if they are within 24" of another friendly unit with this Kultur that has destroyed an enemy unit this phase


I agree it's potentially ambiguous. I would read it as a check you make at the time of shooting with the unit, not a burst that goes out at the time the first unit destroys something, because it seems to me that you can only add a modifier to hit at the time the shots actually happen, so that's when you'd check for the distance. But grammatically I think you could interpret it either way.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 03:20:44


 
   
 
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