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I've played with the night lords 3 times now (since getting the new stratagem update), I've won all 3 games, however, in those games their legion trait of -1 Ld up to a -3 never made any impact. It is too circumstantial and the interactivity rate for that trait is too low to be any good. Armies either don't take moral checks or don't care about it 2/3rds of the time and even if it is in play rarely does it trigger a failure, getting the stacking counter going is also harder than you might think given that you get thinned out fairly quickly. I was thinking of a way to improve it without going overboard, first I thought making it -2 up to a -4, so at least if it doesn't interact much then when it does it will actually do a bit of work for you. But I think it would be nice if they could have a bonus running even if they can't effect units with morale checks. For example, take away the stacking leadership debuff leave at -1 flat but in addition to that if the enemy unit is lower leadership than your unit when resolving attacks in the fight phase you get +1 ap against that target with your attacks. That way you get a bonus that you can feel every game even if the opponent doesn't have to take morale checks. Give me your opinions on how you would improve it.




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I want their trait to be on par with the other traits of other legions like alpha legion -1 to hit, world eaters +1 attack on the charge and basically all the others have a legion trait that is constantly active and that you can feel every time you take them out.

I still think a variation on their hh legion trait, "a talent for murder ", would be best. +1 to wound in cc if you outnumber your enemy and +1 to hit if you have greater leadership.

Alternatively they could have a version of the new trait for one of the scions regiments. Every model killed in cc counts as 2 for morale purposes.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think a variation on their hh legion trait, "a talent for murder ", would be best. +1 to wound in cc if you outnumber your enemy and +1 to hit if you have greater leadership.

Alternatively they could have a version of the new trait for one of the scions regiments. Every model killed in cc counts as 2 for morale purposes.

I like the last option, it's simple and effective, thematically accurate as well.

Honestly the question that should be asked here is how to fix morale so that it actually matters to most of the armies played. If you solve that issue you fix the Night Lord's trait and make a lot of other Ld effects meaningful at the same time.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think a variation on their hh legion trait, "a talent for murder ", would be best. +1 to wound in cc if you outnumber your enemy and +1 to hit if you have greater leadership.

Alternatively they could have a version of the new trait for one of the scions regiments. Every model killed in cc counts as 2 for morale purposes.

The Jackal bonus + the wounding in combat would be my additions.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Honestly the question that should be asked here is how to fix morale so that it actually matters to most of the armies played. If you solve that issue you fix the Night Lord's trait and make a lot of other Ld effects meaningful at the same time.

Agreed. You could do all sorts of things to make Night Lords more powerful, but if you want their "thing" to be morale, then morale in general needs to be more meaningful.

In recent discussions, I've pitched having failed morale cause units to be unaffected by various types of buffs (such as aura abilities and strats). In a system like that, even a -1 penalty can suddenly be a big deal as it might determine whether or not your opponent is rerolling 1s, receiving orders, shooting after falling back in the next turn.

The problem with basing a bonus in the morale phase is regardless of what they change about it, it only effects infantry that need to take morale checks which is normally less than half of a players pieces, sometimes none of them. While leadership is a universal stat that can always be used.

I'm still leaning towards giving them an additional rend in the fight phase if they are higher leadership with a -1 leadership non stacking aura.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Honestly the question that should be asked here is how to fix morale so that it actually matters to most of the armies played. If you solve that issue you fix the Night Lord's trait and make a lot of other Ld effects meaningful at the same time.

IMO a big part of the issue is that there are so few interactions with Ld outside of Morale.

Psykers don't even use their Ld values to cast anymore, and virtually all the weapons that used to target Ld instead of toughness have been changed or removed.

Also, outside of a couple of psychic powers, Leadership is entirely irrelevant for characters. What do you think they are, leaders?

I think Leadership should have been given a lot more prominence - especially in the psychic phase.

What I figured out is the best thing for the nightlords as of right now is simply do away with the Ld - and go to a reliable flat bonus just like the other legions. An additional -1 on the rend in combat, it's that simple and it should be balanced and effective. The idea is that it's playing on NLs having shred and if they kill some more models because of it, it parleys into more difficult morale tests but it doesn't rely on that. Iron Warriors basically get a shred with ranged by not allowing cover saves and so similarly the NL would get a shred for fighting.

 vipoid wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Honestly the question that should be asked here is how to fix morale so that it actually matters to most of the armies played. If you solve that issue you fix the Night Lord's trait and make a lot of other Ld effects meaningful at the same time.

IMO a big part of the issue is that there are so few interactions with Ld outside of Morale.

Psykers don't even use their Ld values to cast anymore, and virtually all the weapons that used to target Ld instead of toughness have been changed or removed.

Also, outside of a couple of psychic powers, Leadership is entirely irrelevant for characters. What do you think they are, leaders?

I think Leadership should have been given a lot more prominence - especially in the psychic phase.

LD should be a factor in falling back. I've been saying this for a while.

I've found a good legion trait that works for NL style army that's a replacement for' terror tactics' is the crimson slaughter one, 'a moments peace': destroying a unit triggers an extra command point on a 5+, it's flexible all around useful one that nobody can really complain about you running it.

 brazenjaw wrote:
I've found a good legion trait that works for NL style army that's a replacement for' terror tactics' is the crimson slaughter one, 'a moments peace': destroying a unit triggers an extra command point on a 5+, it's flexible all around useful one that nobody can really complain about you running it.

What exactly does that rule have to do with the Night Lords fluff?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
I've found a good legion trait that works for NL style army that's a replacement for' terror tactics' is the crimson slaughter one, 'a moments peace': destroying a unit triggers an extra command point on a 5+, it's flexible all around useful one that nobody can really complain about you running it.

What exactly does that rule have to do with the Night Lords fluff?

Fluff wise I guess it's really just their ability to consolidate around a successful take down of a target with extra cp. But functionally it's a down the middle (balanced) type of replacement for a broken old rule that isn't really working.

 brazenjaw wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
I've found a good legion trait that works for NL style army that's a replacement for' terror tactics' is the crimson slaughter one, 'a moments peace': destroying a unit triggers an extra command point on a 5+, it's flexible all around useful one that nobody can really complain about you running it.

What exactly does that rule have to do with the Night Lords fluff?

Fluff wise I guess it's really just their ability to consolidate around a successful take down of a target with extra cp. But functionally it's a down the middle (balanced) type of replacement for a broken old rule that isn't really working.

Im not following. Why would a legion made up of psychotic transhuman murderers and whose command structure is based on hive world gang culture get free command points? Part of the Night Lords fluff is they tend to distrust one another and have problems with authority. Even First Claw were constantly fighting each other, and in the end, killing each other.

Simple tweak - the unit testing morale can only roll against its datasheet value. No special rules, abilities or strategems may alter this.

The ability is fine, its just too many armies get to ignore, modify or change their morale that negates it.

Why not something like every Night Lords model that charges, is charged, or did a Heroic Intervention may inflict a mortal wound on a roll of a 6? To represent them ambushing or otherwise fighting dirty.

Nurglitch wrote:
Why not something like every Night Lords model that charges, is charged, or did a Heroic Intervention may inflict a mortal wound on a roll of a 6? To represent them ambushing or otherwise fighting dirty.

It would have to be on at least a 5+ to make it useful. And then you need to make the charge.

On that note perhaps a bonus to charge? Maybe a +2 or the ability to reroll failed charges. Or they could ds within 6. They are supposed to have the best raptors and the Atrementar were known to just basically appear from nowhere. Plus, as you point out, they are masters of ambush.

They're not really the masters of ambush. When I think Night Lords, there are two things that come to mind:
1. Despite their outfits being silly, they're still super scary.
2. They're criminals and are likely dirty fighters.
So while the current bonus makes sense for one part, morale as it works now makes it useless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're not really the masters of ambush. When I think Night Lords, there are two things that come to mind:
1. Despite their outfits being silly, they're still super scary.
2. They're criminals and are likely dirty fighters.
So while the current bonus makes sense for one part, morale as it works now makes it useless.

The 30k rules writers think differently (see Sevatar and terror squads). Think less of guerrillas lying in wait for a sneak attack and more Michael Myers materializing out of the darkness behind Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween.

They are definitely known for blitzkrieg ds tactics. Though I do prefer the dirty fighter gang fighters angle.

And their look is only silly because of the modeling. Look at the fw sculpts for better representation. Especially terror squads.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're not really the masters of ambush. When I think Night Lords, there are two things that come to mind:
1. Despite their outfits being silly, they're still super scary.
2. They're criminals and are likely dirty fighters.
So while the current bonus makes sense for one part, morale as it works now makes it useless.

The 30k rules writers think differently (see Sevatar and terror squads). Think less of guerrillas lying in wait for a sneak attack and more Michael Myers materializing out of the darkness behind Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween.

They are definitely known for blitzkrieg ds tactics. Though I do prefer the dirty fighter gang fighters angle.

And their look is only silly because of the modeling. Look at the fw sculpts for better representation. Especially terror squads.

Could you suggest a rule? I know you like that angle but what exactly would they get? Your earlier suggestions don't really factor in their stratagems so I would say they are either irrelevant or redundant.

 brazenjaw wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're not really the masters of ambush. When I think Night Lords, there are two things that come to mind:
1. Despite their outfits being silly, they're still super scary.
2. They're criminals and are likely dirty fighters.
So while the current bonus makes sense for one part, morale as it works now makes it useless.

The 30k rules writers think differently (see Sevatar and terror squads). Think less of guerrillas lying in wait for a sneak attack and more Michael Myers materializing out of the darkness behind Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween.

They are definitely known for blitzkrieg ds tactics. Though I do prefer the dirty fighter gang fighters angle.

And their look is only silly because of the modeling. Look at the fw sculpts for better representation. Especially terror squads.

Could you suggest a rule? I know you like that angle but what exactly would they get? Your earlier suggestions don't really factor in their stratagems so I would say they are either irrelevant or redundant.

"A talent for murder " is a combination of "prey on the weak " and the "dirty fighter " warlord trait. Every model killed counts as two for morale works with "flay them alive ". The ds stuff and bonuses to charges works with "raptor strike" with a +2 specifically saving spending cp to get the host raptorial specialist detachment and warlord trait while not worrying about staying within the warlord's aura. What specifically are you looking for?

Well that's fine if they want to change it to that I would ok with it. But as a player, I need to substitute out their current rule with an already existing one in order to be fair to my opponent, I can't just make something up and use it until they make it official so until then I use crimson slaughter legion trait and if the person wants to complain I'll just downgrade to crimson slaughter and use the base stratagems because that's usually better than playing without a legion bonus. The one exception to that is playing against chapter masters because vox scream is a hard counter to that and it's worth the downgrade for that one ability.

 brazenjaw wrote:
Well that's fine if they want to change it to that I would ok with it. But as a player, I need to substitute out their current rule with an already existing one in order to be fair to my opponent, I can't just make something up and use it until they make it official so until then I use crimson slaughter legion trait and if the person wants to complain I'll just downgrade to crimson slaughter and use the base stratagems because that's usually better than playing without a legion bonus. The one exception to that is playing against chapter masters because vox scream is a hard counter to that and it's worth the downgrade for that one ability.

Ah ok. Next time maybe ask in general or maybe tactics. Proposed rules is for ideas for new rules. Hope the Crimson Slaughter trait works out for you. Cheers.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
Well that's fine if they want to change it to that I would ok with it. But as a player, I need to substitute out their current rule with an already existing one in order to be fair to my opponent, I can't just make something up and use it until they make it official so until then I use crimson slaughter legion trait and if the person wants to complain I'll just downgrade to crimson slaughter and use the base stratagems because that's usually better than playing without a legion bonus. The one exception to that is playing against chapter masters because vox scream is a hard counter to that and it's worth the downgrade for that one ability.

Ah ok. Next time maybe ask in general or maybe tactics. Proposed rules is for ideas for new rules. Hope the Crimson Slaughter trait works out for you. Cheers.

Well the point of this post was to start pushing for a rule change but that might never happen so you need to adapt to that. I'm providing what is in my opinion the best work around for the current rule. Also the adding +1 to hit and wound would of course be very useful and properly thematic for NLs but it's also on the strong side of normal for legion traits over all, except that it doesn't really effect HQ's like daemon princes so it's actually not that good when you don't have big squads (which makes sense for 30k) I wouldn't go for it.

 brazenjaw wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
Well that's fine if they want to change it to that I would ok with it. But as a player, I need to substitute out their current rule with an already existing one in order to be fair to my opponent, I can't just make something up and use it until they make it official so until then I use crimson slaughter legion trait and if the person wants to complain I'll just downgrade to crimson slaughter and use the base stratagems because that's usually better than playing without a legion bonus. The one exception to that is playing against chapter masters because vox scream is a hard counter to that and it's worth the downgrade for that one ability.

Ah ok. Next time maybe ask in general or maybe tactics. Proposed rules is for ideas for new rules. Hope the Crimson Slaughter trait works out for you. Cheers.

Well the point of this post was to start pushing for a rule change but that might never happen so you need to adapt to that. I'm providing what is in my opinion the best work around for the current rule. Also the adding +1 to hit and wound would of course be very useful and properly thematic for NLs but it's also on the strong side of normal for legion traits over all, except that it doesn't really effect HQ's like daemon princes so it's actually not that good when you don't have big squads (which makes sense for 30k) I wouldn't go for it.

That's why I changed the +1 to hit to having greater leadership. I get massive mileage on "prey on the weak " on terminators, chosen, (safely overcharge plasma hitting on 2s), and my hellforged fellblade. Would work great for dps too (ld10). Also if gw gave us the full hh treatment then " bulky" models count as 2(terminators, jump packs).

And it ain't too strong compared to loyalists.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Honestly the question that should be asked here is how to fix morale so that it actually matters to most of the armies played. If you solve that issue you fix the Night Lord's trait and make a lot of other Ld effects meaningful at the same time.

IMO a big part of the issue is that there are so few interactions with Ld outside of Morale.

Psykers don't even use their Ld values to cast anymore, and virtually all the weapons that used to target Ld instead of toughness have been changed or removed.

Also, outside of a couple of psychic powers, Leadership is entirely irrelevant for characters. What do you think they are, leaders?

I think Leadership should have been given a lot more prominence - especially in the psychic phase.

LD should be a factor in falling back. I've been saying this for a while.

I like that, a roll off of d6+Ld (with casualty and any other applicable modifiers) between the two units. If the unit attempting to fall back fails they lose models equal to whatever they lost by. It doesn't fix the issue of the unit the charged getting left out in the open but it does make choosing to fall back with expensive units a significantly more difficult choice.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Honestly the question that should be asked here is how to fix morale so that it actually matters to most of the armies played. If you solve that issue you fix the Night Lord's trait and make a lot of other Ld effects meaningful at the same time.

IMO a big part of the issue is that there are so few interactions with Ld outside of Morale.

Psykers don't even use their Ld values to cast anymore, and virtually all the weapons that used to target Ld instead of toughness have been changed or removed.

Also, outside of a couple of psychic powers, Leadership is entirely irrelevant for characters. What do you think they are, leaders?

I think Leadership should have been given a lot more prominence - especially in the psychic phase.

LD should be a factor in falling back. I've been saying this for a while.

I like that, a roll off of d6+Ld (with casualty and any other applicable modifiers) between the two units. If the unit attempting to fall back fails they lose models equal to whatever they lost by. It doesn't fix the issue of the unit the charged getting left out in the open but it does make choosing to fall back with expensive units a significantly more difficult choice.

Nah. What I'm thinking is if they lose the roll off, that's it. They can't fall back. If they win, the losers get to attempt an overwatch equivalent where things just hit on a natural 6. Strictly losing models is silly and brings back the issues that existed with sweeping advance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah. What I'm thinking is if they lose the roll off, that's it. They can't fall back. If they win, the losers get to attempt an overwatch equivalent where things just hit on a natural 6. Strictly losing models is silly and brings back the issues that existed with sweeping advance.

Sweeping advance was never what turned the game into melee-hammer though, it was consolidating into a new combat and locking down the enemy. I don't think the game would be overly unbalanced if the cost for a disorderly retreat was losing models, it also makes traits like Grim Resolve suddenly worth something as DA could fall back and only ever lose a single model.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah. What I'm thinking is if they lose the roll off, that's it. They can't fall back. If they win, the losers get to attempt an overwatch equivalent where things just hit on a natural 6. Strictly losing models is silly and brings back the issues that existed with sweeping advance.

Sweeping advance was never what turned the game into melee-hammer though, it was consolidating into a new combat and locking down the enemy. I don't think the game would be overly unbalanced if the cost for a disorderly retreat was losing models, it also makes traits like Grim Resolve suddenly worth something as DA could fall back and only ever lose a single model.

It doesn't scale. Custodes could be wiped out by Guardsmen Infantry on a fairly probable bad roll. Meanwhile it makes more theatrical sense that it's a little harder to try to hit the guy running away.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't scale. Custodes could be wiped out by Guardsmen Infantry on a fairly probable bad roll. Meanwhile it makes more theatrical sense that it's a little harder to try to hit the guy running away.

Some of the worst defeats in history came when one side's morale broke and they were cut down while routing. A failed morale check doesn't mean careful disengagement under covering fire, it means a panicked run under the enemy's guns and blades and fury.