Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

[New here, if this needs to be moved to wh40k discussions, I apologize!]

Dear fellow players,

I am a returning player coming back to the hobby and (hopefully) warhammer after a 20 years break. After a couple months essentially catching up, I feel am ready to start collecting / playing again. However, there is something that is holding me back from buying new miniatures: will they become obsolete in a couple years?

New miniatures releases and game changed have long been part of this (and other) games. I welcome the opportunity to buy different miniatures; more armies or exciting new beautiful sculpts expand and improve my choices as a consumer. I don't feel the same, though, when models I have bought are taken out of the game.

In the past months I have learnt that the old Best Warriors of Humanity are now only second best to new and bigger marines. There is a lot of talk that this is a plan to phase out old marines in favor of the new sculpts of primaris marines. Recent point efficiency changes favoring primaris and the constant release of new miniatures for them seem to point in that direction.

As a returning player thinking of collecting Grey Knights, this is particularly worrying. Grey knights have incredible models, but no primaris. If I buy an entire army of Grey Knights, which is heavily infantry based, how do I know that I won't be left with an unsopported pile of miniatures in a couple years? As a player and not only a collector, this is very important to me.

So, to the point of the thread:

Does anyone else have similar concerns when planning their collections?

Am I mistaken? Has Games Workshop released any clear statements in that regard?

What sort of public statement would put your (and maybe my) minds at ease?

Any tips for a returning player? Specially when it comes to army planning (and GK!).

Addressing the points of the thread, out of order...

2. GW has issued no statements. The entire (at partially pessimistic) speculation concerning Primaris replacing regular marines is entirely speculation.

3 (and 1): It’s completely foolish to expect a statement that a collection of models won’t be phased out. Because it’s a “How much boiling oil do you object to?” argument. Examples:
* Over time, if you have a collection of models that you never change, you’re going to fall behind as new models (or new options for models) get released.
* Legends exists, as evidence that models will get discontinued.
* Before the great ‘no model, no rules’ purge, armies like CSM would occasionally lose models, and then when Chaos Daemons got its own codex, CSM was left with essentially placeholder ‘generic lesser daemons’.

Now, it would be productive and probably positive if a person looked at that sort of thing and concluded “Ah, this army that I am constructing is a beautiful thing, but like a flower I must appreciate it while it blooms, and then prepare to tend it again.”

How positive do you want to be about the inevitability of change?

 solkan wrote:
Addressing the points of the thread, out of order...

2. GW has issued no statements. The entire (at partially pessimistic) speculation concerning Primaris replacing regular marines is entirely speculation.

Much appreciated! Lots to take in since I came back.

 solkan wrote:
3 (and 1): It’s completely foolish to expect a statement that a collection of models won’t be phased out. Because it’s a “How much boiling oil do you object to?” argument. Examples:
How positive do you want to be about the inevitability of change?

I guess I have enough grey hair to have learnt about the "inevitability of change"

There is a difference between that and pouring time and money over a range of miniatures that might be near the end of its life, with dubious backwards compatibility. I don't think it is weird to think about that the one chapter without primaris (that I know of) and with unique sculpts (among the oldest among the existing unique range: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Portal:Miniatures) could possibly be up for a change.

Is GW essentially milking the last bits of cash from a range that is being phased out with the PA release? This is essentially what I am trying to assess.

Over time, if you have a collection of models that you never change, you’re going to fall behind as new models (or new options for models) get released.

Absolutely, and I'd welcome new possibilities. I am not so keen on model squatting, and the whole warhammer fantasy affair was a horror story (and I had no stake there).

PS - Are tournaments accepting old marines counting as primaris nowadays?

Thanks!

I think to really prepare for the future, you need to understand why the primaris were created, and why mini marines were sidelined, and may (or may not) be cut entirely.

The space marine minis line is GW's bread and butter. It's the engine that makes the company go. reports vary, but space marines sales, on their own, are bigger than pretty much everything not 40k/AOS, and easily outsell smaller armies many times over. Basically, GW knows that new space marine models will make them money.

The problem is that space marines didn't need new models. They had a full range, all plastic, all updated. A few odds and ends aside (bikes cut a new spure with no new options, CC scouts could really use a refresh) the range was only getting more obscure and wacky (centurions? Hunter/Stalker?)

So the primaris range solved the problem entirely. GW has a whole new range of marines to sell from the ground up. Plenty of sales, plenty of profit, gamers are happy.

But what about the old marines? What will happen to them? Historically, new models will replace old ones (see Dark Eldar in 5th edition, most armies slowly over time), while entirely new models will be added without eliminating old ones. With legends, models that dont' have models were moved to unsupported, but those are generally options that have not been made in years, or were never made.

there is some precedent for how GW has handled this. When the new Ork Buggies and mek guns came out, they got new data sheets, and did not replace the old models. eventually, the old models were retired and the datasheets moved to legends. Now, an Ork player could pretty easily claim their old Skorcha is now a gruntlifter gumpbuggy or whatever, while nobody will buy a tactical marine as an intercessor.

My guess is that GW will continue to support mini marines, because they are still a good source of income with mostly relatively recent, good looking models. Eventually, I would not be shocked if they split the codex into classic and primaris marines, simply because of bloat.

So, where does that leave Grey Knights? They're a bit of a niche army, but they really only have three plastic kits, one of which could probably skate by without being primaris'd (dreadknight). So, GW could decide one day to release some Grey Knights in grvis armor and some in MarkX, and they would push the current units out of the limelight. Still though, the GK army isn't big enough, and the kits aren't old enough, for GW to really justify tossing them like the ancient gorkamorka erra buggies and trakks.

 Polonius wrote:

there is some precedent for how GW has handled this. When the new Ork Buggies and mek guns came out, they got new data sheets, and did not replace the old models. eventually, the old models were retired and the datasheets moved to legends. Now, an Ork player could pretty easily claim their old Skorcha is now a gruntlifter gumpbuggy or whatever, while nobody will buy a tactical marine as an intercessor.

Eventually as in immediately. There was no period when old and new were on sale together. Boom. Both gone. Models. Rules from codex. Gone.

Not really comparable. Same thing would have been old marines being stopped on sale and removed from codex when 1st marine codex to 8th ed came out(well except scale. Couple old support units vs entire range)

It seems pretty unlikely they'd toss the current Grey Knights range with any hurry - they don't have any Primaris currently. There's no way they'd flat out replace the line abruptly unless something much bigger was going on with the game.

That'd be skipping the whole "introduce 'replacement' stuff that'll fit into the current range but also slowly displace it " thing. (Very slowly displace it, at that! how many relevant old-marine models/options have even actually gone away? Were any of them modern plastic kits? Just the primarized characters? Certainly the rules are bending to primaris, but rules nearly always bend to new stuff)

I don't think you need to worry much in the near term. Seems most likely that Grey Knights are going to languish for a while in the bin of overlooked imperial factions. Some say that bin is lower than some Xenos!
Then maybe there'll be a Sisters of Battle style (re)launch. New models for the same units so the old stuff works fine, except for maybe some equipment options.

Grey40k wrote:

 solkan wrote:
Addressing the points of the thread, out of order...

2. GW has issued no statements. The entire (at partially pessimistic) speculation concerning Primaris replacing regular marines is entirely speculation.

Much appreciated! Lots to take in since I came back.

 solkan wrote:
3 (and 1): It’s completely foolish to expect a statement that a collection of models won’t be phased out. Because it’s a “How much boiling oil do you object to?” argument. Examples:
How positive do you want to be about the inevitability of change?

I guess I have enough grey hair to have learnt about the "inevitability of change"

There is a difference between that and pouring time and money over a range of miniatures that might be near the end of its life, with dubious backwards compatibility. I don't think it is weird to think about that the one chapter without primaris (that I know of) and with unique sculpts (among the oldest among the existing unique range: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Portal:Miniatures) could possibly be up for a change.

Is GW essentially milking the last bits of cash from a range that is being phased out with the PA release? This is essentially what I am trying to assess.

If that's the answer you want, you need to find a high level GW executive, defeat them, and consume their marketing plans. Otherwise, you're engaging in the same speculation that everyone else is.

Grey40k wrote:


Absolutely, and I'd welcome new possibilities. I am not so keen on model squatting, and the whole warhammer fantasy affair was a horror story (and I had no stake there).

PS - Are tournaments accepting old marines counting as primaris nowadays?

Thanks!

The answer you're going to get is going to vary by region, but I think the major obstacles to that is that Primaris and non-Primaris:
1. Both types of models are commercially available.
2. The two types of models have different stats.
3. The models are visually distinct.

If they eliminated production of the non-Primaris marines, I think the only grumble you'd see about using non-Primaris (a.k.a. old Marines) as Primaris (a.k.a. new Marines) would be about the smaller models being easier to hide.

For comparison, I've got three or four of the original 25mm Marine-sized Obliterators. They've been put on 40mm bases to try to help make them bigger and have a similar visibility to the current models, but I'd still play in the other player's favor if there were any concerns or potential issues caused by the smaller models. (I only picked up one of the 40mm metal Obliterators, didn't want to get them in Finecast, and I'm waiting for the Obliterators to get released individually...). It's probably a similar situation to the old 25mm terminators vs. the newer 40mm terminators, except that the third generation Obliterators really fill out (and somewhat overflow) their bases.

I mean, I've got original Realm of Chaos CSM models (or even the 3rd edition 40k era metals) that look positively tiny compared to the current CSM models. I'm probably going to end up buying a lot of 32mm "adapter" bases for those 25mm models to stand on, eventually.

Advice to the OP: insecurity about models is natural, but it also takes away from enjoying the game.

Try to focus on having fun with what you have now. The rest will sort itself out.

If you are concerned about Grey Knights specifically, buy them from Ebay. You will save a little and also won't experience as much regret if they get Primaris-ized in the near future.

As far as returning goes... the best advice is to learn the new game in the context of the old one. You will be learning from opponents who never knew the old rules, makes for great conversations.

Grey40k wrote:
If I buy an entire army of Grey Knights, which is heavily infantry based, how do I know that I won't be left with an unsupported pile of miniatures in a couple years? As a player and not only a collector, this is very important to me.

It's unlikely, but honestly you don't. It's the (slight) risk that any non-SM, now shifting to any non-Primaris SM, has taken regardless of the edition.
If this is so very important to you though? Then buy all Primaris. Because you absolutely know that range won't do anything but grow in the coming years.

Grey40k wrote:
Does anyone else have similar concerns when planning their collections?

I'm sure someone does, but I am not that someone. I play games and build armies in the here & now, not some future that I have zero control over.

Grey40k wrote:
Am I mistaken? Has Games Workshop released any clear statements in that regard?

No you're not mistaken. Gw hasn't (and won't) made any such statement. The only thing you can count on is that they'll tell you anything you need to hear to justify opening your wallet. Or, even better, simply let you believe whatever you please on a subject.

Grey40k wrote:
What sort of public statement would put your (and maybe my) minds at ease?

I don't need any such statement. Because I play games and build armies in the here & now, not some future that I have zero control over.
If you need such a statement? Then you've already set foot on the path of disappointment.

Grey40k wrote:
Any tips for a returning player? Specially when it comes to army planning (and GK!).

Yes. It's a game. Have your fun now. Worry about the future when it arrives.

What you need to do is be ahead of the curve.

Don't worry about obsolescence; look to what's coming next! I had a Deathwatch and an AdMech army before GW ever made minis for them. Now they're in style!


But in all seriousness, you don't know what's coming, we don't know what's going (although mini-Marines are pretty much toast within an Edition or so), and GW isn't going to announce such grand sweeping changes because that's bad PD. In light of that, make hay whilst the sun is shining and enjoy what you've got.

As an aside, you know Grey Knights are in a pretty poor place rules-wise, yeah?

 Polonius wrote:
I think to really prepare for the future, you need to understand why the primaris were created, and why mini marines were sidelined, and may (or may not) be cut entirely.

Yep! Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.

So, where does that leave Grey Knights? They're a bit of a niche army, but they really only have three plastic kits, one of which could probably skate by without being primaris'd (dreadknight). So, GW could decide one day to release some Grey Knights in grvis armor and some in MarkX, and they would push the current units out of the limelight. Still though, the GK army isn't big enough, and the kits aren't old enough, for GW to really justify tossing them like the ancient gorkamorka erra buggies and trakks.

What scares me is that the entire GK infantry range falls in that category; it is not like you can get some primaris and just bet on longevity for a couple of special units (say as a space wolf player could). Hence, it is not about replacing a few units over time for better sculpts; one could potentially see the entire range become a side thing to some primaris GK hotness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rbstr wrote:
new models for the same units so the old stuff works fine, except for maybe some equipment options.

See, if this was entirely the case, I would have been fine with it.

Had I been back 10 years earlier, most of my models would have been OK for a long while, and I could have updated some parts of my collection simply to try new units.

However, I don't feel this is what is going on right now. The whole primaris thing seems like a very hostile take over:

- Iconic units (e.g. Calgar) being updated to "primaris".
- Little to no new classic marine new kits: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures_(Space_Marines)
- Primaris being increasingly pushed via rules: essentially point discounts making them more point efficient.
- Fluff focused on the new thing, leaving no real space for the old one: are they going to create a narrative about the new role of old marines? Apparently what we have is simply a more progressive phasing out strategy, instead of Kirby's planned release.

So I don't think it will come down to changing the bolter or whatever for something else, or having a hotter sculpt. Hence my insistance on gathering as much information as possible.

Thanks for your perspective, in any case.

They won't phase out for awhile. However , if they phase out old marines other races should expect that same treatment eventually. As well, even if GW said they'd never phase them out, GW is known to be liars and will phase them out anyway and say " They aren't phased out..they are in legends ! You're welcome ! "

Love the models and game while you can but everything you buy is on life support and they will say it isn't, until it is.

Hold in mind this phase out could still be a decade off, so think of how long you expect to even be playing this game before you worry about the prospect.

ccs wrote:

It's unlikely, but honestly you don't. It's the (slight) risk that any non-SM, now shifting to any non-Primaris SM, has taken regardless of the edition.
If this is so very important to you though? Then buy all Primaris. Because you absolutely know that range won't do anything but grow in the coming years.

I am probably taking that route. That said, I don't think we are currently operating under business as usual. The primaris thingy is truly a structural break, which is why I am taking a more cautious approach.

Yes. It's a game. Have your fun now. Worry about the future when it arrives.

I appreciate you taking the time to give me all this feedback, I trully do. However, I have to admit that those comments bother me a bit.

Essentially, given the limited leisure time I have I think it would be foolish of my to choose an army with a short lifespan. I don't think I am alone in that limitation, and hence why I think that telling people to just not worry about the future is a tad irritating. It is as if the implication of your comment were that those who care about longevity are in the wrong. You might not mean it that way, but I have found people who outright stated it.

Ultimately this last bit does not matter anyway, and I appreciate the perspective and information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
They won't phase out for awhile. However , if they phase out old marines other races should expect that same treatment eventually. As well, even if GW said they'd never phase them out, GW is known to be liars and will phase them out anyway and say " They aren't phased out..they are in legends ! You're welcome ! "

Love the models and game while you can but everything you buy is on life support and they will say it isn't, until it is.

Hold in mind this phase out could still be a decade off, so think of how long you expect to even be playing this game before you worry about the prospect.

That's the thing, I do not thing it is business as usual in terms of release schedule. I think what we are seeing is a limited version of what happened in fantasy.

Look at the number and nature of new releases by edition:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures_(Space_Marines)

From 2nd to 7th, it is mostly faction specific sculpts and adding new units. That is an 11-13 year span during which your SMs would be relevant.

Now, in 1 year, we have seen primaris sculpts and units essentially duplicating an increasingly large fraction of the old marine units. I think it is quite obvious that they mean to cover all, and start releasing faction specific sculpts (or upgrade packs).

The more I tolk about it with you guys and look at the availabe info, the more I am convinced that Psychic Awaking might have been a last effort to milk those old GK sculpts.

Appreciate the discussion and the information, thanks!

In all fairness as to why there's been no oldmarine updated kits, it's because most of their range is pretty watertight anyway.

Terminators are still fine, if getting a little fuzzy, nearly all other power armour kits had updated sculpts in 7th (Tactical, Devastator, Assault, Vanguard and Sternguard), vehicles are still pulling their weight as solid sculpts, and they even got new units to fill even more specific niches (Centurions, flyers, and AA tanks). There wasn't really a need for new units, and aside from Scouts, Command Squads, and Bikers, the model range was all pretty new.

If GW wanted to get people buying more Space Marines, they'd need to have made those changes. Now, I'm not saying I support the idea of having people buy more, but there's clearly a very popular market for the Primaris Marines. Hell, the number of Space Marines in my collection practically doubled, and not because I was replacing the old guard.

Did anyone who read Ritual Of The Damned know if it mentioned GKs having Primaris marines? They've been conspicuously absent from GK fluff since the start of 8th.

GK have in general be absent from 8th ed lore. There are no GK primaris in the PA4 book. Although stern and draigo are left to die, alongside the DA primaris captin on the new prospero demon planet.

 Polonius wrote:
Now, an Ork player could pretty easily claim their old Skorcha is now a gruntlifter gumpbuggy or whatever, while nobody will buy a tactical marine as an intercessor.

I disagree. If and when 'tactical marines with bolters' are retired as a list option, moved to legends or what have you, I'd be shocked if a player would object to marines with bolters being subbed for marines with bolters xl.

Similarly, if GK do get 'replaced' by Primaris Greyknights with Cawl pattern force halberds, it would be pretty odd to refuse to play someone's metal GK using the only non legends rules available.

It's only an issue in anyone's heads because GW released them as parallel units rather than 'these are the new X marine models'

My advice would be to collect the models you like personally and only collect as much as you don't like to make those models function as an army. If you buy a model you really enjoy, you'll find ways to use it through rules and editions changes. If you chase what's hot (or ascendant in the background) you'll be disappointed.

 =Angel= wrote:


If and when 'tactical marines with bolters' are retired as a list option, moved to legends or what have you, I'd be shocked if a player would object to marines with bolters being subbed for marines with bolters xl.

Similarly, if GK do get 'replaced' by Primaris Greyknights with Cawl pattern force halberds, it would be pretty odd to refuse to play someone's metal GK using the only non legends rules available.

Would it, though? What is the current state of affairs in tournaments regarding using such "counts as" options? This is something I care about and would love to hear what current players have to say about it.

My advice would be to collect the models you like personally and only collect as much as you don't like to make those models function as an army. If you buy a model you really enjoy, you'll find ways to use it through rules and editions changes. If you chase what's hot (or ascendant in the background) you'll be disappointed.

I appreciate the tips, but honestly I do believe that this is mostly up to the preferences of the player. Some people are satisfied if a model can be used in friendly games, or if they can simply keep it as a collector item. Others need more than that in terms of on the table value; read: reasonable point efficiency, supported by rules, not being left at the good will of the TO or opponent to be able to field army.

Personally, I enjoy both sides of the hobby, so I am taking a very cautious approach.

PS - I still have some dwarf warriors I painted 20 years ago on display, so I it is not like I don't derive some pleasure from this side of the hobby too.

As someone who returned in 8th I know where you are coming from op. I just expanded on the primaris and dg in the boxes set for this very reason.


Ultimately gw are fairly unpredictable but if I had to guess I'd say they'll add to gk rather than squat/legend them, similar to witch elves, chaos mortals etc in aos.

Why? They have a small, plastic, relatively recent range.

As I said though second guessing gw is a bit of a fool's errand. If you're really concerned I'd say it is a possibility certainly.

I see it this way, stuff like primaris or the new sob has a much lower chance to suddenly go legends or vanish, then GK or some sort plastic eldar kit from the past. It is only a real problem for factions that have all their units and characters build out of 1-2 boxs.

Karol wrote:
I see it this way, stuff like primaris or the new sob has a much lower chance to suddenly go legends or vanish, then GK or some sort plastic eldar kit from the past. It is only a real problem for factions that have all their units and characters build out of 1-2 boxs.

Yeah, the current plastic GK range is, mostly:

- 1 box of terminator armor
- 1 box of power armor
- 1 dreadknight

And a few special characters in metal.

Looking at what is happening, currently, I see that:

- Power armor is being phased out.
- Terminator armor is currently in a very awkward spot, and we'll see what happens with it.
- Specialy characters are being upgraded to primaris.
- Primaris are getting their own dreadnaughts.

As you say, it is very susceptible to squashing, or at least far more than the primaris stuff.

I am going to hold out on them and see what happens in the next two years. They did include a lot of wonderful options for other chapters (space wolves also have a lot of flavor, and soon to be upgraded), and I can always count on imperial guard not being primared, right?

More generally, I have to say that I don't see the move towards faster miniature obsolescence to be a good thing for us consumers (survival of the company arguments aside, although I find those to be a bit suspect). Adding miniatures that make me want to buy them because they are interesting and fancy looking is good. Simply retiring existing miniatures on one pretext or another is called planned obsolescence and is one of the nastiest anti consumer policies out there.

I think you need to define obsolete.

It is quite possible GW will never make another mini-marine again. It is quite possible GK will get Primaris reinforcements at some future point (although there isn't much sign its going to be this year). It is quite possible those Primaris units will be *better* than the non-Primaris units in a competitive sense and so you will feel compelled to buy them if you like winning games.

But I wouldn't have any great fear of the regular plastic GK boxes being moved to legends for many years. I'd expect tactical marines to be around for a very long time - and they might go the edition after they stop being for sale.

And really, if you won't buy something because it might be obsolete by 2030, then you probably won't buy anything. Who knows if you'll still want to play 40k in three years time?

On the obsolescence thing, it's hard to say. I think I'm right in saying Grey Knights is now the oldest current codex, having been released in August 2017. The only older 8th ed codexes (Space Marines - July 2017, and Chaos Marines - August 2017) have already been updated.

So it may be due for imminent replacement, or it may be that GW feel like they've updated it now with the Psychic Awakening book and Chapter Approved, and it's all good. (Narrator: It's not all good)

We don't know yet what's going to happen after Psychic Awakening, to Grey Knights specifically or to the game in general...

There are rumours of 9th edition, but no-one knows anything substantial on that front. I personally suspect any 9th edition will be little more than a consolidation and tidy-up of the current rules. 8th was a big change, and has been sufficiently well-received that I don't see them feeling the need to make another big change so soon.

Tyel wrote:
I think you need to define obsolete.

It is quite possible GW will never make another mini-marine again. It is quite possible GK will get Primaris reinforcements at some future point (although there isn't much sign its going to be this year). It is quite possible those Primaris units will be *better* than the non-Primaris units in a competitive sense and so you will feel compelled to buy them if you like winning games.

But I wouldn't have any great fear of the regular plastic GK boxes being moved to legends for many years. I'd expect tactical marines to be around for a very long time - and they might go the edition after they stop being for sale.

And really, if you won't buy something because it might be obsolete by 2030, then you probably won't buy anything. Who knows if you'll still want to play 40k in three years time?

As you say, it is about the definition of obsolete.

For me, obsolete is when they are clearly inferior from a gameplay perspective. This is, at the moment, a hot debate here when it comes to intercessors vs tactical marines. However, I have been reading more on it and it seems that a consensus is emerging: old marines are toast, and it is a matter of how long before they nuke them completely.

There are players that will be fine being able to field them at that lower standard for a while. That's not my case, and I think it isn't the case for some others either. This kind of discussion is, I feel, helpful for people returning to the game (or starting now fresh!) so that they can make a decision with full information.

Of course, that doesn't mean that I expect that the game will remain static until 2030, that's just an exaggeration you added yourself


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dai wrote:
As someone who returned in 8th I know where you are coming from op. I just expanded on the primaris and dg in the boxes set for this very reason.


Ultimately gw are fairly unpredictable but if I had to guess I'd say they'll add to gk rather than squat/legend them, similar to witch elves, chaos mortals etc in aos.

Why? They have a small, plastic, relatively recent range.

As I said though second guessing gw is a bit of a fool's errand. If you're really concerned I'd say it is a possibility certainly.

Appreciated! I am going that route too. The good thing is that now I can soup very effectively, so if a new appealing GK lot comes around I could probably add them progressively.

However, it seems that mono codex spamming super efficient units remains the dominant for of torney gameplay...

Tyel wrote:

But I wouldn't have any great fear of the regular plastic GK boxes being moved to legends for many years. I'd expect tactical marines to be around for a very long time - and they might go the edition after they stop being for sale.

Right! Functionally, if you like the GKs you'll have an army for probably years with the current kits. Maybe they'll get Primaris units, maybe not, but that will certainly be in addition to the current range for some time. If you are not planning on chasing the tournament dragon this really won't be a problem - you'll gradually add new units to the army and it'll work out. You don't plan on buying a whole army at once and never changing anything about it forever, do you?


But, also, if you're worried about fielding a particularly competitive army all the time, GK probably aren't for you. They're a small faction so they're highly subject to the whims of the meta. Even if the current GK units last foreverish, they'll certainly perform at "a lower standard" with regularity.

Even more, I'd say that GKs aren't really a Space Marine army in practice. You couldn't plunk down a GK army and say it's "Silver painted Ultra Marines" and have it come close to being WYSIWYG. Most of the kits are bespoke for the faction. They're far more like SoB or even a xenos army so I'm really not sure SM Primaris comparisons are as relevant as one might think.

I mean, put it this way:

The basic, current troop kit for at least 5 factions in the game is over a decade older than the GK troop kit. And I find the odds that, whatever they end up replacing GK troops kit, you won't be able to proxy the current GK troop kit as them extremely slim.

Right now, I've never met someone who wanted to proxy older marines as new primaris (Because new primaris are much more boring to play as and against) but if someone wanted to I'd have zero problem with them doing so. Half my stuff is an out of date sculpt at this point. Heck almost all of my eldar is.

I am curious what will happen to GK down the line.

I could see the Dreadnight replaced with an Invictus with a weapon sprue swap.

I think Terminator Armor is giving way to Gravis, so Paladins could be replaced with an upgrade sprue to Gravis models.

The rest of the line, I don’t know. But like Deathwatch and most especially Legion of the Damned, I suspect keeping Grey Knights alive as a faction is extremely low on their list - far below the likes of DA, BA, SW and even lower than Custodes, actually.

rbstr wrote:

Right! Functionally, if you like the GKs you'll have an army for probably years with the current kits. Maybe they'll get Primaris units, maybe not, but that will certainly be in addition to the current range for some time. If you are not planning on chasing the tournament dragon this really won't be a problem - you'll gradually add new units to the army and it'll work out. You don't plan on buying a whole army at once and never changing anything about it forever, do you?

I do not, that would be absurd.

The point is that replacement of old SMs is not business as usual, it is far faster than usual range expansions. The fear is that instead of having an OK functioning army, it would result in a faster than usual outclassed army with no hope to regain the spotlight. That'd be because I doubt they plan on rotating old marines to the top of the pack, which happens with other units / subfactions / factions that are supported. After all, the 2 plastic kits that consitute the core of GK are in the direct line of fire of the primaris advance.

But, also, if you're worried about fielding a particularly competitive army all the time, GK probably aren't for you. They're a small faction so they're highly subject to the whims of the meta. Even if the current GK units last foreverish, they'll certainly perform at "a lower standard" with regularity.

That is the main point and, in my experience, why often torney or semi-competitive players have trouble talking with other kinds of players. I feel that truly non competitive players see the meta thing as an all or nothing and don't dwell on nuance. There is a distinction between not being top5, but having a supported range, and being top 10 and being in a state of just waiting out until you get squatted.

I am more convinced by the minute that right now several miniature ranges are directly in the way of the roll out of the primaris line. This is a bit unprecedented, in my experience, for wh40k (would be happy to hear stories about what happened in my absence to other factions, eldars seem to have suffered). This means that a new or returning player might be considering whether to buy a VHS player potentially right before DVD releases.

If my thread gives those kind of players a source of good references, aside from helping me out, I will be very satisfied.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:Right now, I've never met someone who wanted to proxy older marines as new primaris (Because new primaris are much more boring to play as and against) but if someone wanted to I'd have zero problem with them doing so. Half my stuff is an out of date sculpt at this point. Heck almost all of my eldar is.

Does this hold true in the current tournaments? I am out of touch right now.

Stormonu wrote:I am curious what will happen to GK down the line.

I could see the Dreadnight replaced with an Invictus with a weapon sprue swap.

I think Terminator Armor is giving way to Gravis, so Paladins could be replaced with an upgrade sprue to Gravis models.

The rest of the line, I don’t know. But like Deathwatch and most especially Legion of the Damned, I suspect keeping Grey Knights alive as a faction is extremely low on their list - far below the likes of DA, BA, SW and even lower than Custodes, actually.

I guess they feel they are milking the old sculpts enough until the next release phase for primarians.

After reading a ton about it, I am under the impression that the plan seems to run:

- Duplicate most of the existing old marine range with primaris variants.
- Rules start favoring primaris over old marines slowly to make sure they die out (seems this is already happening).
- Start producing chapter specific upgrades and units in primarian format (to recover the old distinctions between chapters).

It seems there are not truly going through those phases in order. Some range like termies still not covered, point efficiency already creeping in, some subfaction specific sculpts even though again it is not full overlap.

Unless someone brings something very different to the table, I am now quite convinced I do not want to build the core of any SM army on old marines. It really seems that this would be a losing strategy if you care to play at a semi competitive level.

The replies here are more ic one day last year all old chaos space marines and chaos space marine terminator became obsolete over a weekend. How dumb are people grey knights are doomed