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Does anyone have an idea?

GW made PA out as having monumental consequences for the 40K universe but all we seem to have gotten so far are a few skirmishes here and there that don't seem to add up to much.

Is PA just a 'this will get you by' in the interim product until 9th is ready to drop?

I haven't read the PA books, and have no intention of doing so, so those more in the know please enlighten me.

PA is " So your army is meh, here's some new stuff, have fun ! " the story seemed to be something but went no where fast and I doubt it'll land anywhere cool at the end.

It was never meant to be a narrative experience and more a tide you over group of supplements.

It will be a narrative like Age of Sigmar has narratives for editions. Once all of the PA books are done, GW will put out 9th edition and the process will begin anew.

GW wants to make editions seem more like seasons telling different stories, than the balance fixes/changes that they actually are.

Nowhere significant.

This needs stressing again (as GW have not been very good at doing so). The PA books are set between the opening of the rift, the Indomitus Crusade and the Plague Wars. You will get NO new Primarchs, NO one (significant) will die etc. these are essentially "historical" books that fill in the gaps between those events.

It was to give armies a few new rules to tide everyone over until the next codex cycle.

And supposedly to catch everyone else up to loyalist marines. Guess they failed on that one.

I hope this isn't GW taking another page from video games and going with seasons ideas. Just what I'd love, to add to my DLCS, seasons and scheduled patch support. I mean we have two of the three already.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I hope this isn't GW taking another page from video games and going with seasons ideas. Just what I'd love, to add to my DLCS, seasons and scheduled patch support. I mean we have two of the three already.

I don’t see it as a bad thing if it is mostly free or optional. Say there are some updates to rules and new models but no one is forced into buying the dlc equivalent. In this more benign form, it could be the, just supporting their already released product. That’s a plus from me.

Grey40k wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I hope this isn't GW taking another page from video games and going with seasons ideas. Just what I'd love, to add to my DLCS, seasons and scheduled patch support. I mean we have two of the three already.

I don’t see it as a bad thing if it is mostly free or optional. Say there are some updates to rules and new models but no one is forced into buying the dlc equivalent. In this more benign form, it could be the, just supporting their already released product. That’s a plus from me.

Except in this case, if your opponent has bought the new rules and you haven't, you're fethed. It's like playing with an old codex.

Sometimes I wonder what people mean when they want "major events" in the setting. PA did start with a massive Black Crusade (pretty darn major event); the loss of Cadia; the almost if not nearly quite cutting in half of the Imperium of Man. Those are pretty major events in their own right. Cadia being lost even sets a potential future stage for GW to revitalise all the core IG models. Shifting the Cadia style into an elite slot like the Catachan are, and then replacing the regular infantry, heavy weapons etc... with a new rise of Guard models from the next most numerous division.

Those are major in-setting events happening. Meanwhile we keep seeing increased unity of Eldar between the Craftworld and the Dark variations - that's pretty major for a faction that hither too has been presented (esp the Craftworld) limping along lost in a millennia of depression and hiding.



I just think the dream of some to see a faction lose and get wiped out; or see the Emperor rise or see major character die off in droves just isn't going to happen when the lore is made to support a primary physical product line of models. GW can't wipe out the Tyranids in the story with a massive united Ork Wargh that goes so insane that they charge out of the Galaxy to smack the Tyranids in the face directly in the void etc... You don't get races wiped out because, well, players of said races don't like it very much.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Nowhere significant.

This needs stressing again (as GW have not been very good at doing so). The PA books are set between the opening of the rift, the Indomitus Crusade and the Plague Wars. You will get NO new Primarchs, NO one (significant) will die etc. these are essentially "historical" books that fill in the gaps between those events.

Well, I agree we likely wont get new primarchs. But they certainly COULD release chaos ones, as they are active in the lore of this period. Angron and Fulgrim specifically.

We wont see loyalist ones wake up/return for this reason though.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Nowhere significant.

This needs stressing again (as GW have not been very good at doing so). The PA books are set between the opening of the rift, the Indomitus Crusade and the Plague Wars. You will get NO new Primarchs, NO one (significant) will die etc. these are essentially "historical" books that fill in the gaps between those events.

Glad it wasn't me who had to say it this time.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I hope this isn't GW taking another page from video games and going with seasons ideas. Just what I'd love, to add to my DLCS, seasons and scheduled patch support. I mean we have two of the three already.

I don’t see it as a bad thing if it is mostly free or optional. Say there are some updates to rules and new models but no one is forced into buying the dlc equivalent. In this more benign form, it could be the, just supporting their already released product. That’s a plus from me.

Except in this case, if your opponent has bought the new rules and you haven't, you're fethed. It's like playing with an old codex.

True, I do not understand why they keep wanting to make money out of those rule changes.

It just comes across as greedy and fuels the second hand and black market for those books.

I don't know why anyone would think it's going anywhere.

Grey40k 785698 10723000 wrote:
True, I do not understand why they keep wanting to make money out of those rule changes.

It just comes across as greedy and fuels the second hand and black market for those books.

I guess it makes them good money. From my personal point of view, I am very happy they decided to do PA books. CA and FAQ clearly can not be used to fix really bad rules, and doing a codex is too hard for them.

Karol wrote:

Grey40k 785698 10723000 wrote:
True, I do not understand why they keep wanting to make money out of those rule changes.

It just comes across as greedy and fuels the second hand and black market for those books.

I guess it makes them good money. From my personal point of view, I am very happy they decided to do PA books. CA and FAQ clearly can not be used to fix really bad rules, and doing a codex is too hard for them.

Rule updates (if well directed) and new flavor are always welcome. But once it becomes part of the business, the company starts having bad incentives (power creep to sell, excessive rule changes). Notice that they went from around 5 years between editions, to 4-3 years.

I think most people would be happy to add a few units every few months to their armies, but radical changes only work for competitive people who paint armies like this:

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/E148F0EB-31F6-460C-9040-E51A6E431549.jpeg

And I mean no offense by it, but it is a different market.

I think they are just trying to use sells tricks from mobile games for their stuff. Rules being cut from codex, spliting them in multiple books, seson pass rule updates. They even go further, most games I know of, don't make you pay for a patch, yet we pay for a CA.

Part of PA is shifting away from one big drop of new and updated models when you get a Codex and drip feeding updates to armies over time.

This is actually a good thing because in the past you could wait years to get an update. Sure it was most often fantastic when you got it; but it could mean watching other armies get new toys over and over long before your army got anything.

PA is GW experimenting with different delivery systems for delivering new models and updated models to armies alongside other content like expansion rules or alternate ways to play etc...


Basically GW isn't so much taking content out of the codex, but rather looking at ways to increase the value of PA content so that its more viable for you to pick up for more than just the rules for one or two new models or an updated sculpt etc...

Karol wrote:I think they are just trying to use sells tricks from mobile games for their stuff. Rules being cut from codex, spliting them in multiple books, seson pass rule updates. They even go further, most games I know of, don't make you pay for a patch, yet we pay for a CA.

Overread wrote:Part of PA is shifting away from one big drop of new and updated models when you get a Codex and drip feeding updates to armies over time.

This is actually a good thing because in the past you could wait years to get an update. Sure it was most often fantastic when you got it; but it could mean watching other armies get new toys over and over long before your army got anything.

PA is GW experimenting with different delivery systems for delivering new models and updated models to armies alongside other content like expansion rules or alternate ways to play etc...


Basically GW isn't so much taking content out of the codex, but rather looking at ways to increase the value of PA content so that its more viable for you to pick up for more than just the rules for one or two new models or an updated sculpt etc...

Yeah, that’s about it.

I am all for innovation but quite frankly I am not sure this is in our advantage.

If I were them I would give more freebies in terms of updates, and make people want to support them instead of force feeding. Recasters, 3D printers, people sharing codex online...

Given the fantastic profits and margins of r3cent years I guess it is working out short term for GW...

 Overread wrote:
Part of PA is shifting away from one big drop of new and updated models when you get a Codex and drip feeding updates to armies over time.

This is actually a good thing because in the past you could wait years to get an update. Sure it was most often fantastic when you got it; but it could mean watching other armies get new toys over and over long before your army got anything.

PA is GW experimenting with different delivery systems for delivering new models and updated models to armies alongside other content like expansion rules or alternate ways to play etc...


Basically GW isn't so much taking content out of the codex, but rather looking at ways to increase the value of PA content so that its more viable for you to pick up for more than just the rules for one or two new models or an updated sculpt etc...

Well I kind of a did wait years for a good update. almost two years. Or by years those it mean those 10 years plus wait times some armies had?

If I were them I would give more freebies in terms of updates, and make people want to support them instead of force feeding. Recasters, 3D printers, people sharing codex online...

I don't think GW is okey with freebies, unless it is absolutly required. But as long as the stuff they make isn't over priced and good, people are going to keep buying, and be in general happy with it. Problems start when you get something or get promised something and it is bad. Then people may get a bit disillusioned. Or at least I was when the first CA came out.

Karol wrote:


Well I kind of a did wait years for a good update. almost two years. Or by years those it mean those 10 years plus wait times some armies had?

By years I'm meaning 5-10 year cycles. Just look at Sisters of Battle who didn't get an update in so long that they didn't actually have any plastic models. Or at many of the Old World armies which have extensive metal/finecast/old plastic sculpts.

Rules update basically.

As per another thread I made the background/fluff/plot is pretty darn poor in the books.

Karol wrote:
Well I kind of a did wait years for a good update. almost two years. Or by years those it mean those 10 years plus wait times some armies had?

In previous editions pretty much everyone had to wait a couple of years as few factions saw more than 1 codex an edition in a time where editions lasted 4 or more years. Even worst would be the factions that never saw a new codex throughout entire editions. Players of those factions were playing armies with rules written for basically another game in mind.

As for Psychic Awakening, I am not expecting it to go anywhere. I think the books are attempting to to be a couple of new pages of faction lore and new rules that normally are found in a codex but not nearly enough to justify creating an entirely new codex as seen that the PA books have been combining factions. I honestly don't think they are leading anywhere. Maybe there will be a 9th edition, but I can't really see there being a whole lot that 9th can alter and keep codices and supplements valid. The core rules for 40k are super light with most of the actual rules found on data sheets and stratagems.

Games Workshop could make core terrain rules different as well as how Command Points are generated or even alter Force Organization Charts. None of it is anywhere close to enough for me to bother picking up a very expensive BRB. Heck, I don't really need the one I have now since the only thing my group refers to in it is deployment zones. As much as I would like the game moving away from an IGOUGO or make melee combat stronger, I don't think those element could be introduced while not doing anything to the codices and supplements would work. Even Chapter Approved points adjustments isn't likely enough to accept sweeping changes to the rules. I guess we will see though.

It's almost like PA is an excuse to release some new models and update a couple armies with the story being a distant secondary development...

 Overread wrote:

Karol wrote:


Well I kind of a did wait years for a good update. almost two years. Or by years those it mean those 10 years plus wait times some armies had?

By years I'm meaning 5-10 year cycles. Just look at Sisters of Battle who didn't get an update in so long that they didn't actually have any plastic models. Or at many of the Old World armies which have extensive metal/finecast/old plastic sculpts.

God, remember when we had to wait 5+ years for a codex update and either system only got like 2 or 3 books a year? For all the complaints about too many books I feel like a lot of players wouldn't have the patience for 40k anymore if it was still releasing at that pace (which honestly, it looks like we might be now). When we were waiting on the Index to Codex updates they couldn't release books fast enough.

 Overread wrote:

Karol wrote:


Well I kind of a did wait years for a good update. almost two years. Or by years those it mean those 10 years plus wait times some armies had?

By years I'm meaning 5-10 year cycles. Just look at Sisters of Battle who didn't get an update in so long that they didn't actually have any plastic models.

Well, outside of the Immolator, anyway.

Well, just a collection of supplementary books for supplementing some armies.
Some armies benefit more like GK and some less (Aeldari in total).
Seems to prevent GW from introducing a new edition.

They aren't even good rules updates. Some armies were given more clear thought than others to the point it's obvious. Even as poor as the material is, some people will gobble it up and justify buying it.

#saynotoGWbooks

 Overread wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what people mean when they want "major events" in the setting. PA did start with a massive Black Crusade (pretty darn major event); the loss of Cadia; the almost if not nearly quite cutting in half of the Imperium of Man. Those are pretty major events in their own right. Cadia being lost even sets a potential future stage for GW to revitalise all the core IG models. Shifting the Cadia style into an elite slot like the Catachan are, and then replacing the regular infantry, heavy weapons etc... with a new rise of Guard models from the next most numerous division.

Everything you mention here actually happened as part of the campaign that transitioned the game from 7th to 8th. Obviously the story lines transition into each other, but the actual story events described in the books occurs AFTER everything you've mentioned here.

The point, however, stands. There have been some significant events; the Cronesword being taken to the Palace of Slaanesh by Shalaxi Helbane has HUGE consequences for both Slaanesh AND all Aeldari factions. It's the kind of event that can absolutely steer the direction in which armies will grow. For example, that Cronesword could lead to a new unit for Slaanesh. The best chance of getting the Cronesword back lies with the Harlequins, and perhaps a Solitaire, whose role after all is to dance the part of Slaanesh. This might mean an update for Harlequins.

I don't have any of the other PA books yet, but I remember reading that during Blood of Baal, the Tyranids revealed some focussed behavior, the likes of which are seldom seen. It indicates an evolving sentience, which could have clues about the development of 'Nids. Mephiston crossing the Rubicon might also be a bit of a big deal.

I've also heard that the rules updates for Grey Knights were a really nice bump that actually gives them a fighting chance- so much so that I went out and got the GK dex.

As for narrative content, I can only speak to the book I've read, but we got 3 missions that are lifted from the stories contained in the book, where the stories provide details about things like terrain. We also got Theatres of War- I particularly like the High Altitude rules. I'm thinking of building a Commorragh spire terrain set, and I think I can angle 3 or 4 spires to support an aerial platform. Ground rules for the table, High Altitude rules for the platform[s]. Lots of fun for the Scourges and Hellions in the box.

I agree with earlier comments that we might see daemon Primarchs. I think we might also see more viability to Sisters of Silence, given the release of Aleya. This may also be accomplished by a return of the Talons of the Emperor concept. I think there's also the potential for development of Imperial Agents- they kinda set it up with the Progenium post on the Community page.

But in terms of the big change hinted at in the promo, I think that's the transition to a campaign system that allows every single faction to get new content every single year. And I bet where they go when the new factory is up and running is new rules content and a new unit for every faction every year. Think about that! Because that is what they've been working toward since the transition between 7 - 8, and I think it's pretty unbreakable business model.

The emphasis in game play is shifting away from collecting a large, single faction army to collecting many smaller factions that can be used together to form large armies. And it is sheer genius for the growth of the hobby, because an army composed of smaller forces allows the army owner to play Kill Team with friends and family who don't own armies of their own. If they like it, they buy a Kill Team of their own. Once they've done that, they can uses pieces of your combined force with their kill team to start playing 40k. If they like it, they grow their kill team into an army. Then you nurture them into Apocalypse, which is where they decide to go multi-faction and the cycle begins again.

If you are a parent, this is mental marketing- there's nothing like it. You can play with your partner and kill team with the kids; it teaches painting, reading, math... it encourages an interest in science and space. There is an entire library of novels that kids will read if 40k playing parents play kill team with them. Blackstone Fortress is cooperative play- one of the greatest teaching games ever! It's easy to point to games that inculcate number sense and literacy, but cooperation and team work are far harder to come by.

I know all that sounds like a tangent, but it isn't, because the campaign, drip release, something for everybody every year system perfectly supports and is supported by smaller multi-faction play. The transition campaign was proof of concept; Vigilus was the low risk in-edition try out; PA is the protoype, and the next campaign will be the actually product, which will repeat for long enough to set the hook as deep as it was set in me back in 1989. After five or six years in a row of getting something for every faction in the game every year, even some of the haters might come around.

The picture is always so much bigger when you step back to see it.

I think you're having some VERY wishful thinking there.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Does anyone have an idea?

GW made PA out as having monumental consequences for the 40K universe but all we seem to have gotten so far are a few skirmishes here and there that don't seem to add up to much.

Is PA just a 'this will get you by' in the interim product until 9th is ready to drop?

I haven't read the PA books, and have no intention of doing so, so those more in the know please enlighten me.

Its really just Marines Codex updates with some other stuff thrown in for giggles.