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Funnily enough, in the early to mid era of 8th, when marine threads were everywhere i made an observation.

Namely the following. All good troop units at the time, (IS, Kabalites, Firewarriors to an extent, cultists,etc) dropped in price in the transition either from 7th to 8th or from Index to Codex.
On average somewhere in the realm of 15-30%.

I also postulated at the time that troops which remained at their pricepoint like tacs or CSM, etc would be bad, further i estimated that the CSM tac would need to be 10-11 pts to compete with the Cultists.

Which is funnily what happened.
Now to connotate this with another observation, i am one of those mad enough to run a CSM horde. Comparatively to those former good Troop units they perform wonderfully. (not to mention bolter discipline and the melee buff nor Red Corsairs). Not overly oprressive not overly wastefull.

The real issue really starts to appear when we add in traits and supplements. So is a Red corsair list allready head above a normal CSm dex 2.0 ( 1.5 really) in it's use off CSM.
Normally though CSM add ons are regarded to be necessary but also only focus on 1-2 Key units and charachters to work. (Which is funnily enough what leads to the absurd situation of Stacking tactics that can be relatively easily counterplayed in most cases at the cost of regular inefectivness.)
Contrast those specific build buffs with the generalist buffs marines recived and you get a general idea.

The issue was CSM / Tac/ SM Troops in general, underperformed. GW fixed one side, (CSM, somewhat) and broke the other side of the equation completely (thanks supplements.)

you realise marines just got a nerfbat to the head right?

And an actual decent one imo.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Bad options are good game design. There should be some skill in assembling your army and having bad or 'trap' options creates the possibility for skill expression in list creation.

This is wrong at so many levels... All options should have some uses. Not all of them should be equal in all context. But when you put design time into creating something people will pay money to have, and spent time building and probably painting it, that thing should have a place. An utility, and not just to be a trap so people can kid themselves into thinking they are great at list building when most just copypaste lists from the internet.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/when-cards-go-bad-2002-01-28

It's a different type of game but I agree with the design philosophy. In 40k terms, having units with varying levels of power puts skill into list building. If all units were equally powerful you could literally pick any legal list and go 50/50 with any other list; you may as well play chess.

Also, it's fundamentally impossible to design only good units for even one army, let alone an entire game. Some choices will always be niche at best if not outright bad.

This is nonsense and maybee Males sense for a trading card game but not for a wargame of anykind where the Situation of the battlefield and Personal skill should decide and not if i brought card /x 3 Times...

Canadian 5th.

You couldn't even bother to propperly Quote me and instead messed up the Quote...



Here:

This is nonsense and maybee Males sense for a trading card game but not for a wargame of anykind where the Situation of the battlefield and Personal skill should decide and not if i brought card /x 3 Times...

So Twohanded swords just didn't exist then in the pike and shot era?

Because i distinctly remember them used to cut open pikesquares but alas..... What do i know...

The sadest Part ,it even works until Sm show up

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The sadest Part ,it even works until Sm show up

It works on them too, some of the time, but it just doesn't feel satisfying. I don't understand why gw decided chaos should be the gimmick of the week brigade.

DIsagree, as someone that actually runs a massed CSM army quite often nowadays, it works precisly until the SM player of any flavour turns to tactical doctrine and proceeds to wipe the floor with 2 squads + per turn.
Most xenos small arms fire aswell as most small arms fire from other factions in general i can pretty easily shrugg off the AP -1 though really hurts overall and i can often not recycle in enough backup. Which also leads to another point, in general CSM feel pretty decent against most infantry atm but get mostly cut out due to the codex dictating imo that thou shall not have less then 13 CP and place for a Hammer of some kind, usually obliterators and or nowadays possessed. Leaving you with alot less pts and overall enforcing that you pick cultists which at this point is only a real save on points off 5 / squad.

Not to disagree, but in general GW would mess it up.

The best case scenario would be, that we would have to actually pay for subfaction traits, because there is not reason that a WB CSM is equal to an AL CSM.


It also would reduce streamlining, which is not something GW seems to want atm considering CA 19 lowered Sorcerers and MoP's on foot to be excactly priced the same as librarians, even though atleast the sorcerer just has the better discipline.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The sadest Part ,it even works until Sm show up

It works on them too, some of the time, but it just doesn't feel satisfying. I don't understand why gw decided chaos should be the gimmick of the week brigade.

DIsagree, as someone that actually runs a massed CSM army quite often nowadays, it works precisly until the SM player of any flavour turns to tactical doctrine and proceeds to wipe the floor with 2 squads + per turn.
Most xenos small arms fire aswell as most small arms fire from other factions in general i can pretty easily shrugg off the AP -1 though really hurts overall and i can often not recycle in enough backup. Which also leads to another point, in general CSM feel pretty decent against most infantry atm but get mostly cut out due to the codex dictating imo that thou shall not have less then 13 CP and place for a Hammer of some kind, usually obliterators and or nowadays possessed. Leaving you with alot less pts and overall enforcing that you pick cultists which at this point is only a real save on points off 5 / squad.

Sorry, thought you were talking about my wombo combo comment and not massed csm.

No, hordes of csm don't work against sm due to the cp hungry tactics we need to compete with them. That's what I hate about gw's current take on chaos. Combos combos combos. I hate having to plan on 2cp per turn just to keep their fething chapter masters in check.

Honestly, my issue with my horde is more that i can just cacophony/ recycle once per turn. severly limiting my capabilities down comparatively to the allways on Doctrines and superior traits of SM. Remember it's based on RC to work meaning that i run around with 16 + CP depending on how i set up. that is more then enough for 3-4 times recycling and one or the other cacophony.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

So incompetent they have made the most successful tabletop wargame of all time and post record success month after month.

Why don't you show us how it's done?

you don't have to be competent, when your a monopolist. This works in trade, politics, academia and sports.

Oligopolist* but yes, Karol has a point.

If GW would release 40k now in this state, it would be probably a pretty minute margin of market that it would achieve if not outright fail.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Karol wrote:
With CSM I think what could help them is to add gear or chaos stuff on squad level to regular squads. Some sort of chaos icons that do something, and are different per legion. Maybe some ancient heresy era guns loyalists don't have. maybe gear from the chaos mechanicus, which again loyalist don't have. If loyalists can have cawl stuff and grav guns, chaos marines should have an option of their own too.

Good idea. Perhaps csm could purchase special abilities for points. We could call them "veteran abilities ".

Sounds familiar somehow.

i Miss my marks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

So create that community.

Be the change you want to see.

You DO realize how hard that is, right?

Nigh impossible.
Especially if Fantasy or sci fi if there is not another Group allready.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

on one side, i am happy that he has something like that, because bigger then 9 W model charachters really suffered from beeing targetable.
Otoh, i can understand that people are frustrated with this as a defensive mechanic since it flat out denies damage after a certain threshold.