Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi,

As the title says. I read that Space Marine Landraiders and drop pods have a limited artificial intelligence. Also in the IG codex various vehicles machine spirits are described with characteristics like the Manticore for example. How much of a characters do these tanks have in the fluff?

Background of this question: I want to include some of the older IG tank models that were around the HH in my army (a Carnodon, Malcador and maybe Maccharius). Thinking about their background I had the idea that they were produced during the last days of the great scouring following the HH but came to late to see combat. Since the Imperial Guard had already started to replace them with Leman Russ tanks they were mothballed and spend the next 10 millenia vacuum sealed in a dark storage facility broading over being cast away and replaced by a glorified tractor because it was easier to produce and maintain. Recently they were reactivated and distributed to regiments, yet their machine spirits are deemed problematic, as they often refuse to accept orders from Leman Russ tanks by scrambling their voxes (nice explanation for the crunch lack of orders). Furthermore there have been reports of individual machine spirits overcharging their engines and weapons to the brink of damaging themselves in the presence of LR tanks as if attempting to prove their worth.

While I find this general scrab of fluff interesting, I'm not sure if a Malcadors machine spirit would posess this level of "character" and if this would still be tolerated as not yet forbidden AI

Even if the old tanks might not have that level of Machine Spirit that is exactly the kind of story the troopers would tell about them if there was a problem. Maybe the engine/weapon overcharge is actually the fault of the crew trying to keep up with newer tanks? The vox malfunctions because there's too few TechPriests and they're mostly busy with the newer tanks, leaving routine maintenance on the old ones to lower adepts.

That... is even better than what I came up with. (Picture me slapping my face that I did not think of that). It makes much more sense and gives me all freedom I want to picture their "Character" etc., especially since my regiment suffers from poor support from the Administrativum and a lack of Techpriests.

Thanks a lot.

Trouble with this is we first need to grasp what is and isn’t AI in the hands of absolute luddites.

A high end machine spirit we can probably produce today. We’ve doorbells linked to cameras that activate on pressing. We’ve CCTV cameras that can self track whatever sets them off.

How much more sophistication is needed to link such to a trigger?

Our militaries also have IFF, and as such, we could already craft what Astartes would recognise as a Machine Spirit, without getting anywhere near sentient machines.

For the IG? Think Google Maps and Self Driving Cars. Extend that just the tiniest bit, to where the software can recognise terrain it’s parameters say ‘no’ to, and we’re pretty much there.

Anarchy's End is a good short story about a Baneblade's machine spirit -

READ IT BECAUSE
This savage and satisfying story takes a look at the truth behind the superstitions of the Adeptus Mechanicus – from the perspective of someone who is utterly reliant on a tank's machine spirit for survival.

THE STORY
War has come. The alien tyranids rampage across an Imperial world, devouring all in their path. All that stands between the planet and total annihilation is the Astra Militarum. In the heart of the ancient Baneblade Anarchy's End, Vi Madine acts as a loader for a mighty cannon. As strange events unfold, and some within the tank plot against their commander, Vi tries to survive… but she may have some help, in the form of the machine spirit of the Baneblade, which seems to be protecting her. But why?

I have always liked the idea that the "Machine Spirit" is nothing more then the Ad Mech explaining away faulty mechanics as a dissatisfied entity in the machine.

Like... the Blood Angels land raiders being particularly blood thirsty and the drivers needing to restrain them from charging into battle is just a slip in the drive shaft or whatever. But humanity is so far gone from understanding their own technology that they just call the machine spirit temperamental and try to appease it with rituals of cleaning and lubrication and maintenance.

 Lance845 wrote:
I have always liked the idea that the "Machine Spirit" is nothing more then the Ad Mech explaining away faulty mechanics as a dissatisfied entity in the machine.

But we know that Land Raiders do have a Machine Spirit - it's a black ball labelled on the schematics (and the Lord Discordant has a stolen on plugged into their Helstalker). What we don't know is exactly what it is and what it can do, and what other Imperial vehicles have something similar - I don't remember any accounts of Leman Russ tanks operating by themselves, for example.

Pyroalchi wrote:
That... gives me all freedom I want to picture their "Character" etc., especially since my regiment suffers from poor support from the Administrativum and a lack of Techpriests.

No worries. ;-)

Besides, tank crews do often handle basic maintenance on their own. That is what all those AdMech Litanies of Maintenance are for, after all - a way for non-technical people to remember which button to press before and after anointing the workings with holy oil. A thrown track isn't something to bother a TechPriest with, that's something the crew puts back in place. One of those old short pieces in White Dwarf was about a Leman Russ crew that tried to make the airconditioner fan stop squeaking when heating up. They did all the rituals right, picking it out, cleaning, oiling, praying, even asked the Chaplain of the allied Space Marines to bless it. And it still squeaked when heating up.

So you could have a TechPriest, fed up with their complaints, give them a thirty minute crash course on common maintenance rituals.

in my opinion they need to scrap machine spirits from the lore. not only is it just dumb and ambiguous, and totally unnecessary part of the lore, its an absolute bore to read about. I just finished titandeath, and everytime I read a part about the titan spirits (pretty much every page) has me eye rolling.

beast_gts wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I have always liked the idea that the "Machine Spirit" is nothing more then the Ad Mech explaining away faulty mechanics as a dissatisfied entity in the machine.

But we know that Land Raiders do have a Machine Spirit - it's a black ball labelled on the schematics (and the Lord Discordant has a stolen on plugged into their Helstalker). What we don't know is exactly what it is and what it can do, and what other Imperial vehicles have something similar - I don't remember any accounts of Leman Russ tanks operating by themselves, for example.

In the old lore, it was both. Most machines are just that, machines. Bolts, nuts, metal and plastic, and "machine spirit" is as much a thing as mana or "luck" today. Some machines have advanced computing, but still not self-aware, and that is also a machine spirit to the AdMech, just "stronger".

Cronch wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I have always liked the idea that the "Machine Spirit" is nothing more then the Ad Mech explaining away faulty mechanics as a dissatisfied entity in the machine.

But we know that Land Raiders do have a Machine Spirit - it's a black ball labelled on the schematics (and the Lord Discordant has a stolen on plugged into their Helstalker). What we don't know is exactly what it is and what it can do, and what other Imperial vehicles have something similar - I don't remember any accounts of Leman Russ tanks operating by themselves, for example.

In the old lore, it was both. Most machines are just that, machines. Bolts, nuts, metal and plastic, and "machine spirit" is as much a thing as mana or "luck" today. Some machines have advanced computing, but still not self-aware, and that is also a machine spirit to the AdMech, just "stronger".

Which STILL isn't a "machine spirit". If my roomba is acting up it's to do with it's mechanics and electronics. Not a malicious entity.

The Lord Discordant has a black ball the Ad Mech have labeled the machine spirit. His Hellstalker IS possessed by a deamon (being a deamon engine).What, if anything, that black ball does is debatable.

Don't forget that one of the 4-5 rules of the imperium is "No AI, ever, for any reason".

Machine spirit is not AI, it's something else.

 Lance845 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I have always liked the idea that the "Machine Spirit" is nothing more then the Ad Mech explaining away faulty mechanics as a dissatisfied entity in the machine.

But we know that Land Raiders do have a Machine Spirit - it's a black ball labelled on the schematics (and the Lord Discordant has a stolen on plugged into their Helstalker). What we don't know is exactly what it is and what it can do, and what other Imperial vehicles have something similar - I don't remember any accounts of Leman Russ tanks operating by themselves, for example.

In the old lore, it was both. Most machines are just that, machines. Bolts, nuts, metal and plastic, and "machine spirit" is as much a thing as mana or "luck" today. Some machines have advanced computing, but still not self-aware, and that is also a machine spirit to the AdMech, just "stronger".

Which STILL isn't a "machine spirit". If my roomba is acting up it's to do with it's mechanics and electronics. Not a malicious entity.

The Lord Discordant has a black ball the Ad Mech have labeled the machine spirit. His Hellstalker IS possessed by a deamon (being a deamon engine).What, if anything, that black ball does is debatable.

I don't know man, I'm pretty certain that my car has a malevolent machine spirit infesting it.

Although I remember at least one short story where an un-crewed Land Raider was able to operate on it's own, including making kills.

you could explain that with the whole 'big ball of imperium hypocrisy'

an AI in the machine sits better with me, rather than an actual 'spirit' but then you get the guff about the sm armour having spirits.. its just dumb.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Although I remember at least one short story where an un-crewed Land Raider was able to operate on it's own, including making kills.

Rynn's Might was a famous Land Raider tank in the service of the Crimson Fists Chapter. According to the Crimson Fists, the uncrewed Land Raider managed to narrowly survive the rogue missile that destroyed the Chapter's Fortress Monastery, during the Invasion of Rynn's World in 989.M41. Thereafter, the vehicle's Machine Spirit launched a solo war against a rampaging Ork Warband, and succeeded in killing the Warboss and many of his followers in a single night. Although Rynn's Might did not survive the encounter, it remains a testament to the awesome power of the Land Raider and its Machine Spirit.

Fisheyes wrote:
Don't forget that one of the 4-5 rules of the imperium is "No AI, ever, for any reason".

Machine spirit is not AI, it's something else.

Yes, it's either a superstition (like gremlins in WW2) or specialist programs that are required to run a land raider or baneblade or a spaceship. AdMech is largely a cargo cult.
Let's not forget that GW, like almost all scifi franchises, defines AI as "computer person", or unshackled general AI, as opposed to what modern day AI is.

Honestly I think its a bit of both.

It is simultaneously a superstition held by the vast majority or the Imperial populace that machines have spirits, and that they need to be appeased by ritual cleaning and lubrication. This is simply ordinary maintenance same as today, but the religious mind takes this to the extreme, and believes that a failing machine is 'angry' if you haven't done the rituals, not that its simply a malfunctioning mechanical device. And it is also a genuine semi-sentience, probably based on a vat-grown (or involuntarily borrowed) human brain in the place of an AI that has full or limited control over whatever device it is inside. Most Imperial persons do not know the difference, and assume that all machines are a little bit smart, even when they are not.

There's also the soul of the vehicle present in the Warp.

Nurglitch wrote:
There's also the soul of the vehicle present in the Warp.

which is such a ridiculous notion... just too far.

Nurglitch wrote:
There's also the soul of the vehicle present in the Warp.

The only instance of that would be demon engines. In which case it's not the soul of the machine, it's the demon's soul using material world item to manifest. No different to a demon-sword, just more complex object.

Fisheyes wrote:
Don't forget that one of the 4-5 rules of the imperium is "No AI, ever, for any reason".

Machine spirit is not AI, it's something else.

You don't think the Mechanicus simply thought "Well, we can't run these machines without some kind of AI in it, so we'll just install it anyway and then call them Machine Spirits and make up some fancy-schmancy rituals to "appease" an "bless" them to avoid making the dumb masses suspicious"? Might be that over the generations and millennia all of the Mechanicus besides Cawl and his inner circle have started to believe their own silly stories but I think that that is what "Machine Spirits" truly are.

Then again, in a universe where demonically possessed battlemechs exist anything is possible and Machine Spirits might actually be real.

Machine-spirits are a spiritual thing, just as human souls aren't daemons.

I'll add that canonically daemons don't have souls.

Machine spirit still isn't a thing, because machines aren't alive and can't have souls in 40k. That's why it's not called machine soul. And humans, unlike orks, don't psychically will their machines to work, so that doesn't apply either.

It's very definitely a thing in 40k, to the extent that there's a specific psychic discipline around it.

 Lance845 wrote:
I have always liked the idea that the "Machine Spirit" is nothing more then the Ad Mech explaining away faulty mechanics as a dissatisfied entity in the machine.

Like... the Blood Angels land raiders being particularly blood thirsty and the drivers needing to restrain them from charging into battle is just a slip in the drive shaft or whatever. But humanity is so far gone from understanding their own technology that they just call the machine spirit temperamental and try to appease it with rituals of cleaning and lubrication and maintenance.

Right? I prefered it when Machine Spirits werent an "actual" thing and was something more ambigious. Now it feels like all Imperial Tech has an AI in it or something

We’ll also need to dig into Servitors, and their possibilities.

The Astartes Nunter? It has Servitor guided missiles, with the Servitor actually being inside the missile.

That black ball thing in a Landraider? I suspect it has similar ‘wetware’, because linking the system to an actual brain, or at least brain tissue, has long been an acceptable alternative to actual Machine Intelligence.

Titans probably have the most sophisticated version, because they’re controlled via Mind Impulse Unit. As a result, the Princeps literally becomes imprinted within the device, same with Imperial Knights.

As a result, they eventually become AI of a sort, albeit with an organic base. This means the machines with the most advanced, or at least complex, Machine Spirits can become capable of independent action. As well Rynn’s Might, there’s another example (which I think was a Crusader of the Black Templar’s) allowing itself to be boarded, before sealing its hatches and self destructing, taking enemy leaders out.

At least, that’s what we’re told. Never let it be said that the Imperium and Adeptus Mechanicus are above appalling hypocrisy.

Some machines, like titans, seem to have AI about as smart as an animal. Anything as smart as a person would be forbidden, but these are apparently dumb enough to pass. In the case of a relatively intelligent AI which can process vocal commands, praying to it might actually be useful.

Now the mechanicus seems to call "machine spirit" any kind of internal logic in a machine. A toaster contains a machine spirit that decides when the bread is ready. You can tell the machine spirit how you like your bread by turning the knob. If you stick a fork in the toaster, you will anger the machine spirit, who will smite you for your insolence.

We know that praying to a toaster won't do a thing and that there is no spirit in it, but the people of the Imperium don't know that and are very superstitious. Their "logic" is: if talking to a cogitator works, then talking to a lasgun will work too, obviously. And in fact, we don't know what kind of technology they are working with. Electronics in 40k might be advanced enough that even the most basic stuff could have a decent AI in it, one that would actually react to prayers...

I saw one theory that (I guess older) machine spirits were leftover (my idea is imprisoned) Men of Iron who were losing their minds after millennia.

That would also help explain OP's idea.