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I run Imperial Guard, and a few other armies. I have actually grown frustrated with the IG unit SGT's being forced to take a different load out then the unit. For the IG, the laspistol, chainsword (because you know, free...) is standard. You can give him a boltgun, but nah. Anyway...
I often find myself frustrated on how this changes the simple dice math. Not that multiplying by 9 is harder than 10 etc, but it is so much easier to work with groups of ten dice etc.

I know there are other units with the same issue, but the sheer number of dice an IG army rolls adds to the situation.
Why did GW not give the SGT a lasgun option? Are we back to "the kit comes with X so..." or is this a fluff thing? A balance thing? (Fluff really would be foolish...beyond but including the no real world equivalent AND proven historical foolishness of such a thing...as in "Gee, the idiot with the pistol must be in charge...)

Does anyone else find this frustrating? I just want ten lasguns in a unit...

Sergeants used to be able to take lasguns.

Ordinarily I would assume the option was dropped as part of their effort to restrict models to only what comes in their kits, but they can take bolters, so I have no explanation.

Death Korps of Krieg still have lasguns on their Watchmasters. It's weird that it isn't even a Legends option for codex armies.

It's a fluff thing, based somewhat on a RL thing.
It's also a handy modeling thing. When you need(ed) to know where the squad leaders are for various effects it's real easy to tell where they are if they're holding pistol/sword vs everyone else.

Balance? Not considered.
Real World effectiveness? Not considered.

ccs wrote:
It's a fluff thing, based somewhat on a RL thing.
It's also a handy modeling thing. When you need(ed) to know where the squad leaders are for various effects it's real easy to tell where they are if they're holding pistol/sword vs everyone else.

Balance? Not considered.
Real World effectiveness? Not considered.

Doubt it's even a fluff thing as plenty of sergeants use lasguns in black library novels.

I think it's just for aestetic reasons, ease of identification.

Are there a lot of IG rules that require the checking of range to the unit leader model?

Karol wrote:
Are there a lot of IG rules that require the checking of range to the unit leader model?

I don't think there are any.

I give my sergeants bolters, as I like keeping the range profile consistent. As to why they removed the lasgun option, I always felt it was so you could tell them apart. A sergeant with a lasgun is really easy to lose track off with Cadian models.

but if they don't have many special rules targeting them, then it seems to be not as much needed to separate them from grunt models.

Karol wrote:
but if they don't have many special rules targeting them, then it seems to be not as much needed to separate them from grunt models.

It was more important back when casualties were the closest model, as you didn't want to lose your higher LD model.

The odd load outs of squads really slows the game down.
The only thing i liked with primarus was they all had the same weapon and were fast to roll for.

The constant back and forth changes to guard options over editions has caused me no end of frustration.

Build platoons, no platoons. command squad has 4 guys nope now 5 oop back to 4 and officer is separate.

Damn it GW make up my mind. i am tired of reorganizing my whole force every other year.

The arm with the sergeants stripes doesn't have it. No model no rules remember...

The_Real_Chris wrote:
The arm with the sergeants stripes doesn't have it. No model no rules remember...

But on the Catachan sprue, there's no 'arm-with-stripes', and no chainsword either! Neither has a boltgun, or bolt pistol, or plasma pistol... There's no consistency at all.

There's also plenty of lasguns on both to equip a sergeant, and modelling the stripes arm on the Cadians holding one is really not that hard.

I modelled mine with Lasguns. I'll play them as a boltgun, and pay a point for it - it just looks more cohesive to me that way.

edwardmyst wrote:
I run Imperial Guard, and a few other armies. I have actually grown frustrated with the IG unit SGT's being forced to take a different load out then the unit. For the IG, the laspistol, chainsword (because you know, free...) is standard. You can give him a boltgun, but nah. Anyway...
I often find myself frustrated on how this changes the simple dice math. Not that multiplying by 9 is harder than 10 etc, but it is so much easier to work with groups of ten dice etc.

I know there are other units with the same issue, but the sheer number of dice an IG army rolls adds to the situation.
Why did GW not give the SGT a lasgun option? Are we back to "the kit comes with X so..." or is this a fluff thing? A balance thing? (Fluff really would be foolish...beyond but including the no real world equivalent AND proven historical foolishness of such a thing...as in "Gee, the idiot with the pistol must be in charge...)

Does anyone else find this frustrating? I just want ten lasguns in a unit...

Both Cadian and Catachan kits come with enough lasguns. There's no legitimate reason they cannot take lasguns, but GW refuses to give us it. We're pretty much the only army to my knowledge that cannot take it's standard weapon on the sarge, and we're the army that is known for regimented, standardized equipment and logistics. Not to mention that it makes no sense why we can take a bolt gun, or close combat weapons, it's clearly not that giving the sarge a lasgun would be op.

As for "it helps us see the sarge", ok, so why doesn't any other army have that issue? Marines just use a non helmeted head, admech have fancy crests for their helmets, etc. Etc. You really mean to tell me it's that hard to tell one guardsman doesn't have a helmet, so he's sarge?

/Rant I've been going on about this since I started in 5th, so I feel your pain. We should start a movement and flood GW's email with it until it changes, same for Stormtroopers, who even had the option for a hotshot lasguns all the way back on 5th when I started.

Gitdakka wrote:

ccs wrote:
It's a fluff thing, based somewhat on a RL thing.
It's also a handy modeling thing. When you need(ed) to know where the squad leaders are for various effects it's real easy to tell where they are if they're holding pistol/sword vs everyone else.

Balance? Not considered.
Real World effectiveness? Not considered.

Doubt it's even a fluff thing as plenty of sergeants use lasguns in black library novels.

Read my sentence again. It's not based on GW fluff, it's fluff inspired by the real world (kinda). WWI imagery specifically. And it was in place looong before the Black Library started publishing.

It's nice to see I'm not the only somewhat nitpicky person on this subject!

@ Imperial army: I feel your pain! So many arm swaps for special weapons etc, I began magnetising the arms of a select number of guardsmen for command squad/officers!

@ Mrmoustaffa: Rant accepted and seconded!

ccs wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

ccs wrote:
It's a fluff thing, based somewhat on a RL thing.
It's also a handy modeling thing. When you need(ed) to know where the squad leaders are for various effects it's real easy to tell where they are if they're holding pistol/sword vs everyone else.

Balance? Not considered.
Real World effectiveness? Not considered.

Doubt it's even a fluff thing as plenty of sergeants use lasguns in black library novels.

Read my sentence again. It's not based on GW fluff, it's fluff inspired by the real world (kinda). WWI imagery specifically. And it was in place looong before the Black Library started publishing.

Not just WWI. In WWII, the squad leader and NCO's often had a different weapon than the squad on the TO&E. IIRC the British and Germans had SMG's for their sergeants. Some US TO&E's have the sergeant with a rifle, some have him with a carbine. That said, in any case it wasn't uncommon for NCO's to just keep their rifle/take a rifle from the dead guy, because nothing says "sniper, I'm in charge here, shoot me now!" like being different from your friends. I don't really see a reason for the Sergeant to not have a Lasgun option, but at the same time, I also don't care enough to make a deal out of it. Adding a bolter would add a new profile to the squad, and it doesn't benefit from FRFSRF anyway, so like I'm fine with chainsword/laspistol.

I just know that it's 9/18 shots at long range, and 19/37 [formerly 28. Relearning that was the most difficult part of the new edition ] shots at short range.

The regulations of the Departmento Munitorum are not to be questioned. If they see fit to issue pistols, then that is what you shall use.

*Reports Trickstick for Heretical actions to the Commisar*

Are you suggesting that the Departmento Munitorum would issue incorrect equipment? I refer you to Art. 9898/23t:

Any soldier who wilfully disputes the decisions of the Departmento Munitorum requisitions office shall be construed as having disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer (regardless of the rank of officer dealt with) and will be shot.

Feel free to model your sarge with rifle.

Maybe he is too busy with sarge stuff to shoot at long range?

Maybe his bayonet is extra pointy and gives him +1 A?

Or pay the point for the bolt gun and roll 10 lasgun dice - maybe his Bolter is feek and weeble compared to Manly Marine versions.

You model you units however you want, then think up a reason for it.

Moriarty wrote:
Feel free to model your sarge with rifle.

Maybe he is too busy with sarge stuff to shoot at long range?

Maybe his bayonet is extra pointy and gives him +1 A?

Or pay the point for the bolt gun and roll 10 lasgun dice - maybe his Bolter is feek and weeble compared to Manly Marine versions.

You model you units however you want, then think up a reason for it.

This isn't really a modelling-based complaint, this is a rules-based complaint. Basically, by not having a Lasgun, it reduced the IG at-range firepower from a potential 20 to 18 shots, and close up firepower from 40 to 37 shots. Somewhat obviously, the Sergeant is appreciably better with a Lasgun than with a Laspistol from a rules perspective, because the Lasgun not only has range but also benefits from FRF-SRF and a few other special abilities while the Laspistol or a 1 point Boltgun don't.

You could argue that, lore wise, a Sergeant would not be able to fire to the same effect whilst being a conduit for the orders of an officer. So it isn't like they would use a lasgun to the same level as a Guardsmen.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

This isn't really a modelling-based complaint, this is a rules-based complaint. Basically, by not having a Lasgun, it reduced the IG at-range firepower from a potential 20 to 18 shots, and close up firepower from 40 to 37 shots. Somewhat obviously, the Sergeant is appreciably better with a Lasgun than with a Laspistol from a rules perspective, because the Lasgun not only has range but also benefits from FRF-SRF and a few other special abilities while the Laspistol or a 1 point Boltgun don't.

So? IG infantry squads are already one of the most competitively priced units in the game. Why should they be better? And as you note, the lasgun would indeed be better than the pistol & sword combo, so if you could take it everyone would always just do that. Now you have to think whether you want to pay one point for the bolted or keep the default gear, so there are at least two viable ways to build your sergeants.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
The arm with the sergeants stripes doesn't have it. No model no rules remember...

This was way before that garbage ever happened.
The TLDR is that it came with the first Cruddace-led Guard book, alongside the horrible attempt to remove "hellguns" from Stormtroopers.

PS: there's enough lasguns in the box to have a Sergeant with one. There's no arms for a power weapon, powerfist, plasma pistol or bolt pistol either, yet those are options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
You could argue that, lore wise, a Sergeant would not be able to fire to the same effect whilst being a conduit for the orders of an officer. So it isn't like they would use a lasgun to the same level as a Guardsmen.

That's not how the unit works anyways. A vox-officer(who gets a lasgun) falls under that heading, and yet retains a lasgun.

 Crimson wrote:
So? IG infantry squads are already one of the most competitively priced units in the game. Why should they be better? And as you note, the lasgun would indeed be better than the pistol & sword combo, so if you could take it everyone would always just do that. Now you have to think whether you want to pay one point for the bolted or keep the default gear, so there are at least two viable ways to build your sergeants.

I think it's a real stretch to say essentially that it's good that you can't take the logical, normal, expected wargear, because having a choice between sub-par alternatives is somehow better. Especially when it was a legal option in several previous editions, and is still present in spin-off lists (Elysians and Death Korps can give their squad leaders lasguns), and is now just inexplicably gone.

It doesn't fit the fluff (why bolters but not lasguns?), it's not useful on the tabletop, and it spoils WYSIWYG for players with existing armies. All so that you can have two mediocre choices instead of a default with two situationally useful alternatives?

It hasn't been an option for a long time though, so I think anyone should have had enough time that there's no longer any WYSIWYG problems.

 Trickstick wrote:
You could argue that, lore wise, a Sergeant would not be able to fire to the same effect whilst being a conduit for the orders of an officer. So it isn't like they would use a lasgun to the same level as a Guardsmen.

If that was the case though why give him a boltgun?

I prefer to go with Hanlon's Razor on this. A a few editions ago the writer of whatever Codex it was (maybe 4th Ed, probably Cruddace), just changed it to LP/Chainsword only and no Lasguns, probably because they didn't know (or didn't care to check) the 3.5 Codex entry for Sergeants, and it's been that way ever since.

A lot of GW's mistakes are mistakes that persist only because they don't know they're mistakes.

 Kcalehc wrote:
But on the Catachan sprue, there's no 'arm-with-stripes', and no chainsword either! Neither has a boltgun, or bolt pistol, or plasma pistol... There's no consistency at all.

The Catachan kit is also ancient, having come about in 3rd Ed, so doesn't really work in this conversation.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
If that was the case though why give him a boltgun?

You will use what you are told soldier!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I prefer to go with Hanlon's Razor on this. A a few editions ago the writer of whatever Codex it was (maybe 4th Ed, probably Cruddace)

It was a change in the 5th edition Cruddace book, where it became pretty much as it is now. In the 3.5 ed book, they could have laspistols, lasguns, or shotguns. Or you could upgrade to a veteran sergeant (+1 LD/A) and have access to the wargear list. That meant you could have all sorts of things, such as a stormbolter.

So let's say the free lasgun was an option. Would you ever take anything else? Option that invalidates other options is not a good option. I am not saying that it should not exist, but it probably should cost more than the pistol and sword combo, and the way GW does the point costs these days that is not possible.

 Crimson wrote:
So let's say the free lasgun was an option. Would you ever take anything else? Option that invalidates other options is not a good option. I am not saying that it should not exist, but it probably should cost more than the pistol and sword combo, and the way GW does the point costs these days that is not possible.

I mean the reason that the lasgun would invalidate the other options is the other options are literally useless:
1) Pistol and Chainsword does nothing. He could literally just have grenades and his bare hands and it'd be basically indistinguishable as far as combat effectiveness. The only time the pistol is more useful is if the enemy is between 6" and 12" away or I'm throwing grenades anyways. I'm not going to stay locked in combat just to use my 1 pistol. The extra attack is even less useful, since it's one Strength 3 attack at WS4+ (unless you're catachan) and AP0. If I lost that single attack in every game I've ever played of 8th edition I probably wouldn't even notice.

2) Boltgun does a bit more than nothing - but only a bit. Not one point more; Str 4 isn't that useful anymore, on an AP0 D1 weapon. I find myself giving sergeants the laspistol and chainsword more often, and as I mentioned above, they could literally not have them and it would be equally useful.

I think what's needed is a buff to make the other two good, such as:
Distinguished Officer: Some regiments prefer their sergeants to be easily picked out from among the troops, eschewing practicality in favor of leadership and elan. These regiments typically issue gleaming blades, roaring chainweapons, or loud and distinct bolt weapons to their non-commissioned officers. A Sergeant armed with a weapon from the Melee Weapons List and a pistol, or a boltgun, gains +1 leadership.

Something to that effect, a small bump to make taking the other weapons literally not useless.