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Made in de
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Surfing around a bit on various sites for cool proxy models I came to think a bit: are there any guidelines what is lets say "a proxy inspired by a GW model" and where it becomes a copyright infringement? In a sense that one might get in trouble bringing something like that in a GW store that is OK with bringing one or two third-party proxies, as long as the majority of models is from GW?

Two specific examples:
1. feudal guard tank:
https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-print-models/miniatures/sci-fi/feudal-guard-battle-tank-769cac64-ad48-4ceb-aa15-22c1931e131d
=> I think this is reasonably far away from GWs stuff, while still recognizable

2. "Taman reccon car"
https://www.shapeways.com/product/FFVBRC243/28mm-6x6-taman-mk-b-recon-car?optionId=63167526&li=marketplace
While it is slightly altered, the similiarities in design are rather obvious.

~1600 build and painted 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Funny. For me 1st one screamed lot more gw than second

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2020/02/24/tneva82-winter-war-tournament-report/<- lotr painting blog

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Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





Germany

I don't think there are any guidelines and find it impossible or at least very hard to draw a definite line. To me both of your examples look like GW style, but I am not sure GW would win an IP trial.

A GW store will likely deal with a printed model the same way they would treat any other 3rd party model. Some are strict, some are not (especially when you buy stuff at the store in question). You might be more lucky in an independant store (you might know the larger one with the mailorder in the capital), but they also might frown a little on printed stuff, while 3rd party is mostly ok (100% ok and welcome when they sell it).
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

When it comes to sculpture, you have to be very close to the original in order to be violating copyright- at least under US or UK law. Both of those models would be fine. The Chapterhouse lawsuit is a good reference- GW lost on basically every count except the ones where Chapterhouse directly used unit names taken from GW publications.

If you make a totally-not-a-Leman-Russ and call it a Lemon Raus you are legally in the clear. A 100% direct duplication of a Leman Russ would be infringement, regardless of how it's labeled.

But when it comes to making reproductions for personal use, it gets more difficult. While GW can allege copyright violation, they have to demonstrate actual harm to a court in order to get anything out of it. If you're a garage hobbyist with a 3D scanner and a printer, you can make as many duplicates as you want. It's technically copyright infringement, just as copying an mp3 file onto another device constitutes copyright infringement, but GW can't/won't come after you for it unless you start selling or otherwise distributing the prints.

As 3D printing becomes more and more widespread, with 3D modeling software already widely available, the manufacturing costs to producing one's own models are rapidly dropping. Like it or not, this reduces them to little more than a source of rules and art.

As for use in-store- GW stores are going to frown on use of third-party proxies of any sort. A model which uses mostly GW parts, with some 3D printed components, is almost always fine. Independent hobby shops will care less but tend to prefer that you buy merchandise from them, so I wouldn't expect a warm welcome with a 100% 3D-printed army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/18 16:01:48


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 catbarf wrote:
When it comes to sculpture, you have to be very close to the original in order to be violating copyright- at least under US or UK law. Both of those models would be fine. The Chapterhouse lawsuit is a good reference- GW lost on basically every count except the ones where Chapterhouse directly used unit names taken from GW publications.

If you make a totally-not-a-Leman-Russ and call it a Lemon Raus you are legally in the clear. A 100% direct duplication of a Leman Russ would be infringement, regardless of how it's labeled.

But when it comes to making reproductions for personal use, it gets more difficult. While GW can allege copyright violation, they have to demonstrate actual harm to a court in order to get anything out of it. If you're a garage hobbyist with a 3D scanner and a printer, you can make as many duplicates as you want. It's technically copyright infringement, just as copying an mp3 file onto another device constitutes copyright infringement, but GW can't/won't come after you for it unless you start selling or otherwise distributing the prints.

As 3D printing becomes more and more widespread, with 3D modeling software already widely available, the manufacturing costs to producing one's own models are rapidly dropping. Like it or not, this reduces them to little more than a source of rules and art.

As for use in-store- GW stores are going to frown on use of third-party proxies of any sort. A model which uses mostly GW parts, with some 3D printed components, is almost always fine. Independent hobby shops will care less but tend to prefer that you buy merchandise from them, so I wouldn't expect a warm welcome with a 100% 3D-printed army.


It's also made from a totally different process and material than GW uses, which makes it REALLY REALLY hard for them to litigate. Nothing stops a master sculptor from making a miniature out of clay that is a perfect copy of a 40k model and using it.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Surfing around a bit on various sites for cool proxy models I came to think a bit: are there any guidelines what is lets say "a proxy inspired by a GW model" and where it becomes a copyright infringement? In a sense that one might get in trouble bringing something like that in a GW store that is OK with bringing one or two third-party proxies, as long as the majority of models is from GW?

Two specific examples:
1. feudal guard tank:
https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-print-models/miniatures/sci-fi/feudal-guard-battle-tank-769cac64-ad48-4ceb-aa15-22c1931e131d
=> I think this is reasonably far away from GWs stuff, while still recognizable

2. "Taman reccon car"
https://www.shapeways.com/product/FFVBRC243/28mm-6x6-taman-mk-b-recon-car?optionId=63167526&li=marketplace
While it is slightly altered, the similiarities in design are rather obvious.
These questions can be tricky, but in general, if they're noticeably different, even if otherwise very similar, there's no infringement. As Catbarf noted, it's pretty much only when copying designs or iconography or other such things in detail that people run into problems, usually when referencing GW products or using GW names explicitly in conjunction with their own products. None of these designs would be grounds for a lawsuit or the like. As for what GW allows in their stores, that's pretty much entirely up to the subjective opinion of whoever is running that particular store.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

Only here to say that first model makes that style of tank look amazing.

Always thought the Leman's were ugly as feth.

   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit






Across the Rubicon

 LordofHats wrote:
Only here to say that first model makes that style of tank look amazing.

Always thought the Leman's were ugly as feth.


Honestly, that tank model just looks like a more refined slightly over the top WWI tank that just happens to be uses the same WWI tank inspirations that Leman Russ tanks do. I don't know WWI tanks and if I didn't know early war WWII tanks, I could probably be convinced that model was a concept tank designed between WWI and WWII but never went into production. I would say only the fact that it shares similar weapon placements makes it even seem like a Leman Russ tank at all. In fact, really only the forward hull gun seems out of place as it seems far heavier than what I would think would be there.

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
Only here to say that first model makes that style of tank look amazing.

Always thought the Leman's were ugly as feth.


Honestly, that tank model just looks like a more refined slightly over the top WWI tank that just happens to be uses the same WWI tank inspirations that Leman Russ tanks do. I don't know WWI tanks and if I didn't know early war WWII tanks, I could probably be convinced that model was a concept tank designed between WWI and WWII but never went into production. I would say only the fact that it shares similar weapon placements makes it even seem like a Leman Russ tank at all. In fact, really only the forward hull gun seems out of place as it seems far heavier than what I would think would be there.


The Leman Russ is basically what you get if you take a British Mark V and slap a turret on it. That's not inherently ugly, but the 40k model imo is hideous and one of the main reasons I never wanted to play Guard (aside from cost). It's short and stubby with ugly lines. I like the industrial look well enough, I think the implementation is just bad and results in a model that feels completely out of place in a sci-fi universe with laser beams and such. Of course, the kit is pretty old isn't it? Maybe the IG will get a primaris treatment soon to update their range XD

The print shown in the OP makes it look great and much closer to something that seems fitting in a sci-fi universe while still having that retro theme. I do agree though that it looks less WWI and more Inter-War.

   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

I love that first tank actually !
I like how it looks like a leman russ, but a bit slopped and different (I really like the leman russ).

   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Max Moray wrote:
GW store will likely deal with a printed model the same way they would treat any other 3rd party model. Some are strict, some are not (especially when you buy stuff at the store in question). You might be more lucky in an independant store (you might know the larger one with the mailorder in the capital), but they also might frown a little on printed stuff, while 3rd party is mostly ok (100% ok and welcome when they sell it).


In this regard, would it (almost ironically) actually be better to 3D-print a duplicate of a GW tank?

I mean, if you have a tank like the first example, it's clearly similar to a Leman Russ but also clearly isn't an actual Leman Russ. So any store manager will know that it's not a GW product. But if you have a fully-painted model that looks identical to a Leman Russ, is the store-owner really going to assume that's actually a 3D print of one? And how would he go about proving it, would he demand to strip the paint to check?

Akiasura wrote:
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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

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"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vipoid wrote:
 Max Moray wrote:
GW store will likely deal with a printed model the same way they would treat any other 3rd party model. Some are strict, some are not (especially when you buy stuff at the store in question). You might be more lucky in an independant store (you might know the larger one with the mailorder in the capital), but they also might frown a little on printed stuff, while 3rd party is mostly ok (100% ok and welcome when they sell it).


In this regard, would it (almost ironically) actually be better to 3D-print a duplicate of a GW tank?

I mean, if you have a tank like the first example, it's clearly similar to a Leman Russ but also clearly isn't an actual Leman Russ. So any store manager will know that it's not a GW product. But if you have a fully-painted model that looks identical to a Leman Russ, is the store-owner really going to assume that's actually a 3D print of one? And how would he go about proving it, would he demand to strip the paint to check?


I had been wondering this as I had been searching, there are lots of duplicate GW stuff when alternate versions would have been similar amount of work it seems.
It’s probably a discussion to be had at the very least.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





Germany

 vipoid wrote:
 Max Moray wrote:
GW store will likely deal with a printed model the same way they would treat any other 3rd party model. Some are strict, some are not (especially when you buy stuff at the store in question). You might be more lucky in an independant store (you might know the larger one with the mailorder in the capital), but they also might frown a little on printed stuff, while 3rd party is mostly ok (100% ok and welcome when they sell it).


In this regard, would it (almost ironically) actually be better to 3D-print a duplicate of a GW tank?

I mean, if you have a tank like the first example, it's clearly similar to a Leman Russ but also clearly isn't an actual Leman Russ. So any store manager will know that it's not a GW product. But if you have a fully-painted model that looks identical to a Leman Russ, is the store-owner really going to assume that's actually a 3D print of one? And how would he go about proving it, would he demand to strip the paint to check?


GW store managers will likely only care if what you bring is GW or not. Independent store managers are quite aware of what is available on the market and therefore might guess you brought a 3d print. Some will care, some not (it will may depend on you being a good customer or not). Those managers who don't know what you brought will likely ask and c'mon lying about the origin of a model would be rather ridiculous, wouldn't it?
   
Made in de
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





The creators of that "feudal guard tank" generally have a lot of cool creations. I plan on including some of them at least for my personal collection and then just ask at my FLGS if they are Ok with 10-20% models that cannot be bought in the store.

On a sidenote: does anyone has experience how much printing such a model costs? Just as a general price range?

~1600 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Gun Mage





Once you have the printer, the actual printing cost is dirt cheap. 3D printer plastic is about $20 per kg. I have a 3D printed Predator tank that is 115 grams. That puts the material cost of a 3D printed tank at about $2.30. It does involve a double-digit number of hours of print time and a bunch of components, though, so you're going to be paying for someone's time setting it up and checking each piece as it finishes.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

Pyroalchi wrote:
The creators of that "feudal guard tank" generally have a lot of cool creations. I plan on including some of them at least for my personal collection and then just ask at my FLGS if they are Ok with 10-20% models that cannot be bought in the store.

On a sidenote: does anyone has experience how much printing such a model costs? Just as a general price range?


On an FDM printer you're looking at a few bucks, but FDM isn't very good with details.
On a resin printer it's about double that, maybe 10 bucks or so?
Very rough estimates though.

Once you actually own a printer, 3D printing is very cheap. you're mostly limited by time, as even FDM printing takes hours. Time is also why 3D Printing services are so expensive by comparison.
   
Made in de
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





I did not really intent do buy a printer myself... I have a larger shop for creatives in range (selling lots of stuff and services for Artists, Architects etc.) and they have a 3D printing service. I guess they will have good quality but will not be cheap... Thanks anyway for the info.

~1600 build and painted 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pyroalchi wrote:
I did not really intent do buy a printer myself... I have a larger shop for creatives in range (selling lots of stuff and services for Artists, Architects etc.) and they have a 3D printing service. I guess they will have good quality but will not be cheap... Thanks anyway for the info.


The big issue with it is that it’s not quite a print and get mini(item) so your paying for someone to do all the extra work, but depending on the setup it can still be cheaper.
But these tanks above are like 12 to 25 hours print times.

I planing to put one of these on my printer soon after some less demanding prints since I so new to it lol. They look so good.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





i am honestly considering buying myself a decent printer, to print bits and bops for my R&H. I'd also be really intereseted in bitz for an Khornate aspiring champion like the one in the dex.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

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10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
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(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
i am honestly considering buying myself a decent printer, to print bits and bops for my R&H. I'd also be really intereseted in bitz for an Khornate aspiring champion like the one in the dex.


I recommend Uncle Jessy on YouTube as a good all round start, he does some good vids on cleaning and such as well. And a good video on CHITUBOX that I found as a helpful start
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





will get a look in.
Thanks for this.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

That feudal guard tank is beautiful. It's heads and tails better than the Leman Russ.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





it's like an IS pike nose with rivets.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




If you go on thingiverse you will find a huge range of free models to print yourself

https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=Imperial+guard+tank&dwh=185e7353827a1f3


There's a small sample of free tanks.

I've printed a few things from here and they've always been pretty good
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 vipoid wrote:
 Max Moray wrote:
GW store will likely deal with a printed model the same way they would treat any other 3rd party model. Some are strict, some are not (especially when you buy stuff at the store in question). You might be more lucky in an independant store (you might know the larger one with the mailorder in the capital), but they also might frown a little on printed stuff, while 3rd party is mostly ok (100% ok and welcome when they sell it).


In this regard, would it (almost ironically) actually be better to 3D-print a duplicate of a GW tank?

I mean, if you have a tank like the first example, it's clearly similar to a Leman Russ but also clearly isn't an actual Leman Russ. So any store manager will know that it's not a GW product. But if you have a fully-painted model that looks identical to a Leman Russ, is the store-owner really going to assume that's actually a 3D print of one? And how would he go about proving it, would he demand to strip the paint to check?


I dunno he'd probably pick it up and find out it's like waaaaaaay heavier than plastic because it's made of 3d print resin.

Or, if it were plastic out of a makerbot, he'd look at it and see that it looks like total ass so he'd know immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
i am honestly considering buying myself a decent printer, to print bits and bops for my R&H. I'd also be really intereseted in bitz for an Khornate aspiring champion like the one in the dex.


3D printers are super cool for bits, just keep in mind the cost of resin for decent quality means you will be spending, if anything, more money than on official GW models making your custom stuff.

Stick to custom things that look awesome to you, trawl ebay for super old beat up models to use as the basis for fancy 3d print conversions (I'd make the tank above by buying an old 10$ ebay russ and just stripping it down and keeping the chassis, for example) and don't try to (for example) print yourself a basic guard squad with no modifications. You'll spend more money than you would just buying guardsmen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/19 11:33:55


 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Na, i am mostly in it for guns really, i'd like AUtoguns with stocks, or the oop R&H MG. (which actually looks better then all the gak gw threw out claiming to be a stubber of some form)

Any decent models of printers that you could recomend? Software cost?

Allbeit maybee PM me if you got something.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

the_scotsman wrote:


3D printers are super cool for bits, just keep in mind the cost of resin for decent quality means you will be spending, if anything, more money than on official GW models making your custom stuff.

Stick to custom things that look awesome to you, trawl ebay for super old beat up models to use as the basis for fancy 3d print conversions (I'd make the tank above by buying an old 10$ ebay russ and just stripping it down and keeping the chassis, for example) and don't try to (for example) print yourself a basic guard squad with no modifications. You'll spend more money than you would just buying guardsmen.


Disclaimer;This propaganda message brought to you by your friends at GW.
   
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





ccs wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


3D printers are super cool for bits, just keep in mind the cost of resin for decent quality means you will be spending, if anything, more money than on official GW models making your custom stuff.

Stick to custom things that look awesome to you, trawl ebay for super old beat up models to use as the basis for fancy 3d print conversions (I'd make the tank above by buying an old 10$ ebay russ and just stripping it down and keeping the chassis, for example) and don't try to (for example) print yourself a basic guard squad with no modifications. You'll spend more money than you would just buying guardsmen.


Disclaimer;This propaganda message brought to you by your friends at GW.


Unless I just used a real expensive model of printer, the resin we used was 30$/liter, and with the amount it used for support struts it went a lot faster than you would expect that volume to go. The first thing I did was print a bunch of ork boyz i found a 3d file for and they worked out to 45$/10, which is more expensive than the GW kit that comes with extra bits, to say nothing of grabbing them secondhand off ebay.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
ccs wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


3D printers are super cool for bits, just keep in mind the cost of resin for decent quality means you will be spending, if anything, more money than on official GW models making your custom stuff.

Stick to custom things that look awesome to you, trawl ebay for super old beat up models to use as the basis for fancy 3d print conversions (I'd make the tank above by buying an old 10$ ebay russ and just stripping it down and keeping the chassis, for example) and don't try to (for example) print yourself a basic guard squad with no modifications. You'll spend more money than you would just buying guardsmen.


Disclaimer;This propaganda message brought to you by your friends at GW.


Unless I just used a real expensive model of printer, the resin we used was 30$/liter, and with the amount it used for support struts it went a lot faster than you would expect that volume to go. The first thing I did was print a bunch of ork boyz i found a 3d file for and they worked out to 45$/10, which is more expensive than the GW kit that comes with extra bits, to say nothing of grabbing them secondhand off ebay.



That seems extreme for 10 boys, your resin works out cheaper and my minis are working out cheaper than yours :(
If you consider the printer price your post comes off as a bit off above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/19 15:49:04


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

Not Online!!! wrote:
Na, i am mostly in it for guns really, i'd like AUtoguns with stocks, or the oop R&H MG. (which actually looks better then all the gak gw threw out claiming to be a stubber of some form)

Any decent models of printers that you could recomend? Software cost?

Allbeit maybee PM me if you got something.


The AnyCubic Photon is a great resin printer. You'll want to stick to resin (SLA) rather than filament (FDM) printers for small stuff and figures. Filament printers are better for terrain and other large things where the perceptible surface texture is less of a problem.

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless I just used a real expensive model of printer, the resin we used was 30$/liter, and with the amount it used for support struts it went a lot faster than you would expect that volume to go. The first thing I did was print a bunch of ork boyz i found a 3d file for and they worked out to 45$/10, which is more expensive than the GW kit that comes with extra bits, to say nothing of grabbing them secondhand off ebay.


At $30/liter, there is something going very wrong if a squad of 10 Boyz ends up requiring a liter and a half (!) to print. The Photon at my workplace usually does ~100 28mm figures on a liter of resin. Even if you halve that for complex or large models like Primaris, that's still 50 models for ~$30, or $0.60 per model. This is dependent on your slicer software as well.

It is absolutely cheaper than buying GW, even with the startup costs taken into account (the printer is only $239 at the moment). The question that only you can answer is whether it's worth the time, hassle, and handling concerns of toxic, noxious resin.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/19 18:54:40


 
   
 
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