Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Interesting to see where they are taking Warpath.

I was a big fan of the original free Warpath "Beta" rules which predated firefight by several years. They were basically a sci-fi version of the first edition of Kings of War. They were my favorite way to fight apocalypse-size battles since -just like KoW- it's basically a ruleset optimized for 15mm but sold for 28mm. We had a good time putting massive 40k armies on the table and yet still finishing up our games in a reasonable amount of time using Beta Warpath.

https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2014/12/its-my-birthday-and-ill-play-warpath-if/

I'll probably give the rules a look-over. I grew less and less impressed with Warpath in successive versions and Grimdark future has filled my niche for fast-play 40k, but I do have alot of 10mm sci-fi units I haven't used in a while.

Do we have confirmation that Warpath is 6/8mm? I don't see anything specific in the previous posts.

Glad to see they're not going with GW's new 8mm epic scale. It doesn't sound like much, but at these sizes, the difference between 8mm and 10mm is considerable. GW is the only company doing 8mm and it's silly. Though IIRC, Battletech (nominally 6mm scale) infantry sometimes were nearly that big...

 mattjgilbert wrote:
Enforcers are currently sculpted 12mm to the top of the head. So GCPS will be about 11mm to the top, Forge Fathers probably 10mm.

11mm to the top of a human head is effectively 10mm. That makes it appealing to those of us with Dropzone, CAV, and MechWarrior Dark age figs which are all 10mm. 10mm is also the same as N scale (1/160) which opens alot of terrain options. It also means that it's mostly compatible with 1/144 (11mm) stuff like Heavy Gear.

This is good news. As someone who games small scale with rebased MWDA figures this is very good news to me. I had just posted earlier that I wasn't particularly interested, but now I'm thinking about maybe picking a few units up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kodos 786779 11574911 wrote:

so question is, is it 12mm total, fitting the larger 10mm models/lines or 12mm "to the eye" which puts it closer to the 15mm lines out there

Proper 15mm is 15mm to the eye and should scale about to 1/100.

 kodos wrote:
another point that might be worth doing a KS is if we again see language packages like with Dungeon Saga

 Eilif wrote:
Proper 15mm is 15mm to the eye and should scale about to 1/100.

of course it should be but some are advertising their stuff with 15mm as in total model size
hence why we needed that clarification as 12mm total is something different than 12mm to the eye, specially as some model lines that advertise 10mm are effective 12mm in total size

I do agree that clarification about scale to-the-eye is necessary.

 kodos wrote:

Ronni also said a while ago that chasing GW was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years.

Ronnie may believe that, but is it true? I'm glad they are trying to chart their own path now, but world the company exist of not for those early year's of targeting GW players with alternate figures and rules (WHFB)?

KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).

Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.

mattl wrote:Agreed. I've been waiting a very long time to really play Warpath... I had some of the first copies of the original Warpath back when it was very much KoW-in-space...

I have a copy of Firefight I need to put together still, alongside some Kings of War armies and a copy of Deadzone.

Hoping some local players show up for Epic Warpath.

.Mikes. wrote:

 mattl wrote:
I had some of the first copies of the original Warpath back when it was very much KoW-in-space...
Warpath.

*cue Sarah McLachlan music*

I really enjoyed the 1st version of Warpath. It was my Go-To game for occasional Apocalypse size battles. Nice and streamlined and the 4 lists they released were enough to cover most sci-fi forces. We even adapted it for Titans.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/?s=%22warpath%22

mattl wrote:Captain for me too... that they're selling extra plastic armies with 200~ models (including vehicles) for 35 GBP is amazing. Roughly double what GW is selling for LI.

Fully funded in 26 mins.

Still waffling over the rules, but I'm certainly in for one of the Core army boxes. If nothing else, I could use a bunch of 10mm infantry and APC's and at that price it's irresistable.

Has Mantic given any indication why they haven't done Corporation as one of the armies or stretch goals?

One of the best reasons to play small scale games is to field massive grunt armies.

I wonder if Marauders and Corporation are part of some future post-KS release plan?

 mattl wrote:
Mantic just lowered the barrier for Veermyn and other armies.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manticgames/warpath-the-game-of-epic-scale-sci-fi-warfare/posts/4029083

Holy Crap, I've been waffling a bit the last few days as my club has had zero interest in buying-in, but if GPCS comes up I will be a shoe-in for sure. I'd have a hard time saying no to Marauder's and Forge Fathers as well.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
sorry for the obvious question but I'm going crazy trying to find the scale for this game. Did mantic go 10mm or 15mm?

It's a very good question. As Mantic and others have said , it's a 10mm game, but they really should be more clear in the KS about it. Personally I think it's a bit shady to call it "epic scale" in the KS tagline, when a huge number of gamers will assume that means the 6-8mm scale of Game's Workshop's "Epic" family of games. 8 to 10mm might not sound like much, but it's a MASSIVE difference in scale when the miniatures are compared.

Mantic's statement at https://www.manticgames.com/news/epic-warpath-designing-the-miniatures-for-an-epic-scaled-wargame/ is

"...our Enforcer Operative models are about 12mm to the top of the head, so about 11m to the eye. A ‘normal’ human would be about 10mm to the eye. So while there is some variation, EPIC WARPATH can be treated as being 10-12mm scale for purposes of modelling and terrain."

Additionally , I assume most folks know this, but 10mm is 1/160 Scale, which is also "N Scale" for model railroading which opens up alot of options for structure kits. It also has lots of potential combinations with 1/144 (11mm) scale which can be useful as 1/144 scale is fairly common in plastic model kits.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues - they were actually pretty clear on that point. They hope that they can scale up the vehicles once they go towards final production but it doesn't sound like they have any intention of actually getting them to match the infantry scale, only to get the scale closer.

I don't know how I missed this. I'm used to vehicles looking a bit small next to their miniatures which can be ok as most folks don't realize just how small tanks and APC's are. However, looking closely at the banner picture it does look like they may be SIGNIFICANTLY undersized. Looking at the door on the Plague Mule, it looks like it may be a 6mm vehicle.

Are there any closer up pictures showing the vehicles right alongside miniatures?

I could really use some more 10mm infantry for my other games, but unless this gets rectified, I may be out or at least scaling my pledge back. I've basically got to decide if whatever pledge I make is worth it for the infantry (likely GPCS and Enforcers) alone as the chances of anyone in the club buying in are nil and even though Mauraders and Forgefathers are appealing as factions, I've got no interest in painting up multiple whole armies that aren't in scale with their vehicles.

The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be this way, especially when dealing in small scale and plastic. One of the biggest benefits of smaller scales is that it means you can make FEWER compromises in terms of miniature and terrain sizes. This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games. There are a few outliers, but my current 10mm sci-fi stuff (mostly rebased Mechwarrior clix) generally has appropriately sized vehicles and likewise CAV seems to have done a good job of keeping to scale as well with the possible exception of aircraft. The vehicles Mantic is showing here would look like toys next to other current 10mm offerings.

I've so enjoyed the KoW rules (3 editions now) that I'd love to be able to support Mantic with other purchases, but they don't make it easy.
Why Mantic Why?!?!?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How different is the scale for the vehicles? Are we talking something like 1/160 vs 1/144, or something more like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops?

Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.


The figures are admittedly on bases, but they are taller than the hulls of the tanks of both factions. Maybe the Grav tanks could be 2-man attack vehicles, but they certainly aren't APC's.

It's a shame because I think the infantry and walkers look pretty good.

 kodos wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Why Mantic Why?!?!?

sprue space
they don't know yet how the models translate to the sprues and therefore designed the vehicles smaller to really fit the wanted amount of models inside the box
if the tooling company (most likely Archon) is reporting back that there is space left, the size of the vehicles will be increased

a real KS were no final product/sculpts can be shown off but everything, from model to the rules is subject of change

 Eilif wrote:
This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games.

yeah, if this would be the case GW would be done, but somehow no one cares if one models are in scale or not but come up with background stories how the different size is "fluffy"

Sprue space as the reason for downscaling-vehicles is an absolutely bogus argument. if you want the vehicles to be the right size then you make them the right size on the srpue and if you have to include more sprues or have less vehicles so be it. Putting less vehicles on a sprue and producing more (actual per-sprue production costs is almost a negligible difference) is likely the real solution. If Mantic thinks their customer base will put up with such a difference to save a few bucks then they're welcome to try it, but it's still a silly reason.

I don't particularly like GW or much of their current offerings but I don't think GW has this kind of a scale problem with their current lines. 6mm vehicles with 10mm figures is like 20mm vehicles with 28mm figures. It's an incongruous and silly pairing. Sure they did when Epic/Space-Marine was in it's infancy, but that was nearly 30 years ago!

I'm talking with the club to see if it's worth it for us to buy a couple human armies for the infantry alone (which seem to be a solid bargain) but we're on the edge and there seems to be zero interest in the game as a whole. Willing to be convinced otherwise if we get a resolution to the scale issue by the end of the pledge period, but I'm not hopeful.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.

Sorry to call you out like this bud

Exhibit A: door size in scale



Exhibit B: door size on GW analogue



Exhibit C: door size on real world light combat vehicle

No offence taken. Your picture does show that it's not quite as bad as I feared, but the 10mm version is still smaller than it should be, even taking into account the necessary bulkiness of 10mm infantry.

The real world combat vehicle is not really germaine to the issue. I've already expressed that real world combat vehicles are smaller than most folks think. I'm one of the people that think that the current edition of the Rhino is actually not too far from being correctly scaled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:


point is, they are producing a single plastic frame per faction, if they change that to 2 frames just to get the vehicles larger, we would not have 4 factions but just 2 in the beginning, and people would call that a failed game because no one will ever play anything with just 2 factions at start unless it is made by GW.
and doing less tanks per frame but adding more frames will result in having half units for the other models on the box and people will call it a dick move and call Mantic out for being anti-consumer and not buying it (or the box gets more expensive, providing more than they need and people will complain that Mantic is not selling them smaller boxes with half units)

I don't buy it. If you have to make less tanks per sprue, do so and just make more of that sprue. Once you've got the tooling, it's not terribly expensive or time consuming to just make more. Mantic has done enough corner cutting and half-measures in their miniature production thus far. Here's a new game, a new scale and a new chance to just flipping do it right.

Hopefully, as has been suggested, Mantic can figure this out.

On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale. well, I once did a full measurement of the GW stuff in search of alternatives in the old days and a 40k tank matches 1/48 scale, while the tank weapons are 1/35 and infantry is supposed to be 1/56
some of the modern GW infantry is 1/54 or 1/50, but the same way the tanks increased in size
if scale is important, the difference between 1/54 and 1/48 or 1/35 is quite noticeable.

Setting asside scale creep, everything from GW has pretty much followed these rough comparisons for decades. The height is 1/56 (more like 1/50 now), the thickness of figures and size of vehicles is closer to 1/48, and weapons is closer to1/35 (or even bigger, as 1/35 firearms are still notably slimmer than GW). That's just the aesthetic and it's fairly consistent across their ranges. That's not what's being discussed here.

 Bioptic wrote:
The video is pretty interesting, and does give a sense of more meaningful design intent behind the play style of the various factions, which I hadn't really appreciated from the core game rules.

Also contained a physical example of a based hover vehicle, which I think is a massive, massive improvement over the original KS images:


Enforcer hover tank

I do appreciate that new picture. Still massively underscaled, but it's nice to have a very clear picture where you can see the hatch size and the infantry comparison. I think there are probably a good number of folks who will be ok with 6mm vehicles and 10 mm troops.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.

I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.

Myself and several members of my club are in that camp. I haven't bought any new GW product in a while (cost too much and I've got a huge backlog) but I like the GW settings alot, have fairly large collection of minis (especially 40k) and have been playing with alternate rulesets for years now. KoW is my go-to for large Fantasy battles. I like it alot and will likely not be buying into "The Old World". One Page Rules is my Go-To for 40k gaming. In both cases, I have earlier edition GW rulebooks and Codex/Army books to get my fluff/background needs taken care of. In the case of OPR, the option lists are complete enough that in most cases, one can read a GW codex, pick out an army, and then stat it up straight away.

As for Epic Warpath Kickstarter, we just decided not to participate. The group is doing a fair amount of 10mm Sci-Fi right now so the 2025 delivery (not unreasonable, but not quick enough for us) plus the general lack of interest in the game itself from club members makes it not a good idea right now. There's some good Mantic discounters over here, so if interest picks up maybe we'll buy some in the future at retail, but not at this point.

I'm skeptical that the ratio of collectors to gamers is quite as high as some are suggesting.

Additionally, I think there are alot of folks who take rules, community and likelihood of finding a game into account in their purchases even though they might only get in a couple games per year or less. Functionally they may be collectors, but they are buying as though they are gamers.

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
Just to jump on the GW rules/players conversation:
An AOS mate of mine told me recently that he doesn't care about better systems, it's just easier to get games of GW systems than it is anything else locally (because everyone plays them because you can get games easier...).

He won't even consider picking up anything non-GW, even if I lay it all out and run demos or whatever.

I completely understand this. It's sad, but if you don't have an amenable group and you enjoy gaming, GW is by far the safest choice. I wrote once that each overpriced box of GW miniatures comes packaged with a complete community of gamers. For alot of folks who don't have the inclination to be an organizer it's just not worth it to invest in other games that won't get played.

I'm very grateful I've got friends who will play KoW, Mech Attack, Alpha Strike, OPR, Space Weirdos etc...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Frankly I am way past the point where pick up games with randos at the store would be an acceptable lynchpin of my hobby.

I completely agree, but it's not just about dropping in at the FLGS. There are allot of areas in the country where your only option for a regular wargaming group might be a group focused on GW games.

I count myself lucky not be in that situation, but I think if I were and was having no luck starting an alternate group I'd probably join a 40k group. I've already got the minis and an appreciation for the setting and it would at least be a chance to game, hang with gamers and an excuse to build terrain.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
That sure is a choice. Feels more like friends ensuring a nice payday for another friend than a smart business maneuver.

You may be right, but if those there's a reasonable amount of time left on those licenses, it might be a chance for Mantic to pick them up cheaply and all at once.

Of course there's also the question of whether Mantic has the capacity to do much new with them.

 kodos wrote:

 Talking Banana wrote:

Technically speaking, are Mantic games "Miniatures Agnostic" like Frostgrave and Stargrave? (Meaning they officially don't care what miniatures you use?) Just curious.

like in official Kings of War tournaments, non-Mantic is allowed, you are just excluded from best painted prices as this is labeled as best painted Mantic army
)

I think there was the additional rule that any army could win the tournament but only a Mantic Army could advance to the final Championships in the UK.

 pancakeonions wrote:
Beautiful art!

Does that first mech look any less of a Battletech mech? I'm not an expert there, but nearly all giant, bi-pedal walkers look like something from Battletech to me...

There's allot of Battletech style in both of those walkers.

The first one however reminds me most of Reaper CAV. Especially in the stance, bulk, blocky lines, and use of helicopter style cockpit.

I dont get mad at derivative mechs though.
It's hard to get around the influence of Battletech and the Macross, Dougram and Crusher Joe Mecha designs that made up most Battletech's early output. The designs are iconic enough to burn into designers heads and just diverse enough that it's difficult to design something without some similarities.

 DaveC wrote:
New Update with sprue pics!

Vehicle size is 15% bigger, details look good considering the size. 6 sprues makes up a starter set.

“Made in Poland EU by Archon Studios” I think that’s the most point of origin info I’ve seen on Archon Sprues yet!

Even more glad I skipped this now. The vehicles are improved but still far too small. Looks like 6/8mm vehicles with 10/12mm figures. What's the point of going to a smaller scale if you can't take advantage of it to keep the big impressive things (vehicles, spacecraft, buildings) more properly in scale?

Might still scoop up some sprues on sale at some point just to add more infantry (they look quite good) to my 10mm forces, but for now it feels like I dodged a bullet here.

NAVARRO wrote:Its plastic so should be very simple to snip and repose.

Hypothetically, but sniping a 10mm plastic figure is likely to mar it pretty badly. Careful slicing and it should glue together will enough but it's the same kind of fun as gluing 28mm true scale ankles and wrists.

Or Mantic could have just paid the comparatively negligible cost for the sculpture to do some additional pose variations.

Pacific wrote:My thoughts on scale are that at this level you need some abstraction. The Mantic minis here are *far* less out of scale than the first editions of Epic (Rhinos in particular are hilariously small) and those things were sold in the hundreds of thousands. So, I really don't think it is going to be a deal-breaker for a majority of punters.

A good range of easy to assemble miniatures, reasonably priced, with a game that is straightforward to play .

Completely disagree. One of the advantages of a smaller scale is that you DON'T have to abstract the vehicles at all and you can abstract your structures and ground scale much less than 28mm.

No argument that this is a good value, but justifying the scale discrepancies as being an improvement on a game that came out 35 years ago is a very low bar to hurdle.

I adore the Kings of War rules. I really like the Mantic crew that I've interacted with over the years at Adepticon. Really nice people who want to do good games at a fair price. Halo and Walking Dead seem like proof they they can deliver the goods the same as other top tier companies.

However, -especially with their proprietary lines- they keep shooting themselves in the foot with this kind of malarkey. Compromises in products and sculpting and size choices (or mistakes?) that keep knocking them off the mark. It's a company I want to support more, but I feel like they keep doing silly things like this and giving me reasons not to.

Others may feel differently but I've always expected crowdfunded stuff to be delivered late and it almost always is.

The new figures do look great. Still not regretting not pledging, but it's good to see the level of quality.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 mattl wrote:
He also did the rules for original Warpath back when it was more like Space KoW.

This one:

Spoiler:

I've got that!

Even played a few games with it years back and a member made super heavy rules for it.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2014/12/its-my-birthday-and-ill-play-warpath-if/

We enjoyed it and it was our go-to for Apocalypse size 40k games until we settled on Grimdark Future.

Downloaded the rules. They look pretty good.

I'd be tempted to try them out if they didn't use stupid special dice. Anyone know the distribution of sides for the Command Dice? Maybe MonPoc dice would work?

Thanks folks!

Sprues look good. Still not regretting skipping this KS, but there is a fair chance that Enforcers and/or GCPS will be strongly considered in the future as a source for affordable 10mm sci-fi infantry.

 DaveC wrote:
That would be the first painted image of the Nameless and first image of the GCPS minis? The Lancers look a bit flat I know they are designed like that but they look a bit short.

Well, the infantry and small walkers look good. The lancers are comically small. Interesting since the footprint isn't bad and if they'd been made a bit taller, they really could have looked like proper 10mm tanks. Will be looking forward to seeing some close-up Higher-res pics of the GCPS infantry.

 kodos wrote:
true scale might be the wrong word here as the Lancer looks to be in scale with transports and infantry

I disagree. I actually had a chance to stand next to an M1 Abrams 2 weeks ago and it's bigger -especially taller- than that.

I don't want to belabor the point as I think we've already had confirmation from Mantic that the vehicles are deliberately underscale. I just think it's an opportunity missed in this case since if they'd made the vehicle a little taller (the mold a little deeper) they could have produced a vehicle that actually was properly scaled.

 kodos wrote:

 Eilif wrote:


I disagree. I actually had a chance to stand next to an M1 Abrams 2 weeks ago and it's bigger -especially taller- than that.

I don't want to belabor the point as I think we've already had confirmation from Mantic that the vehicles are deliberately underscale. I just think it's an opportunity missed in this case since if they'd made the vehicle a little taller (the mold a little deeper) they could have produced a vehicle that actually was properly scaled.

well, tanks follow different designs, the M1 is huge for a tank in general, specially compared to Russian or Asian designs
But compared to some APCs,

Spoiler:

The Lancer is fine compared to the Mule, a little on the small side compared to the infantry but there is no wargame that uses tanks that are perfect in scale with infantry

With that picture I think you just made my point for me. We agree that the footprint of the GCPS tanks is probably fine, but they're to short to be a battle tank and FAR too short as an APC hull. Unless we're assuming everyone is lying down inside them.

As for "No wargame...." You're just wrong there. Miniature soldiers will are often a touch thicker than true scale because of durability, but height wise, most games scale their vehicles and miniatures properly these days. FoW, Bolt Action, Legion, heck, even 40k is mostly "accurate" to mini size and fluff these days.

RexHavoc wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Having seen the minis at Salute I would say they are very close to Legions Imperialis/8mm or prints to around that scale. So if you're using your LI minis for Armageddon or other Epic versions with alien factions that would be a straightforward extra usage for them.

Cool. Its hard to judge from the photos on screen, I did a rough guess by matching the sprue scale to an existing sprue (knowing mantic would probably not deviate too far from what standard size sprues they used) and the rat infantry are a lot wider than imperialis minis, but its not a good judge of scale doing it that way. The photo could be way off.

I dont think I'm going to buy anything else though, the obscure scale is just too off putting. I've been collecting 6mm for too many years. It was bad enough that GW did it with LI, but at least the majority of those models were compatible with my existing 6mm collection (being scifi). I suspect humans/humannoids in warpath are just going to big of a scale and its not going to be worth buying the majority of releases as so much of the kits will be 'wasted' for me.

Shame- I would have loved an easy source of zombies for SciFi, we only really have fantasy ones now available and mantic bring out plague sprues would have been super useful for my collection!

I will keep my fingers crossed that once the minis are out in the wild and people start to paint them up and show them off, once compared to existing minis that are not that different in scale/size. Bit of clever basing will take care of anything too grievous.

I'll be interested to see the scale pictures when things come out, but I wouldn't expect compatibility.

If you were borderline about using the 8mm LI with your 6mm Epic, then the 10mm Warpath figures are going to seem like giants! Ironically, the Warpath vehicles will probably scale pretty well with LI. They may scale ok with Epic minis, but since alot of older epic vehicles are underscale the Warpath vehicles may still seem enormous.

chaos0xomega wrote:10mm is hardly an obscure scale

Agreed. CAV, Dropzone commander, Heavy Gear, (even old Mechwarrior clix) and a few other indie sci-fi producers as well as a ton of fantasy and historical minis are available in 10mm (1/160). It's been around a long time even if the Sci-Fi options are somewhat more limited. The compatibility with N Scale (nearly identical) and the close enough compatibility with 1/144 models provides alot of options for overlap with existing structures and model kits.

Plastics are really pushing it ahead compared to 15mm which was more popular for indie small-scale sci-fi for many years, but doesn't seem to be getting as much interest from more prominent companies these days.