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Hello everyone! With the GW webstore recently reopening, I've decided to begin a 30k army as a project during the lockdown, having just ordered some Mk III marines, a Rhino and some Tartaros Pattern TDA. As the title states, I'm going to be doing the Isstvan III Loyalists, starting with the Emperor's Children and the Sons of Horus, while adding in the World Eaters later. I wish I could also include the Death Guard, but can only have 3 HQs, so I chose the other three, as the DG seemed to be more cut off then the others, meaning they would probably work better as their own force. But, I've been having some trouble deciding what to use, and what would be a good addition to the army both fluff wise and crunch wise. Here is what I've got so far;

Legion and Allegiance: III: Emperor's Children, XVI: Sons of Horus, Loyalist, Shattered Legions

Rite of War: Orphans of Betrayal

+ HQ +

Garviel Loken [365pts]
. Master of the Legion
. . Terminator Command Squad, Legion
. . . Space Marine Chosen, Legion: Plasma Blaster, Power Maul
. . . Space Marine Chosen, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. . . Space Marine Chosen, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. . . Standard Bearer, Legion: Combi-bolter, Grenade Harness, Power Fist
. . . Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour

Praetor, Legion [167pts]: III: Emperor's Children, Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, On Foot, Paragon Blade

Vigilator [110pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, On Foot, Refractor Field, Scout Armour
. Consul: Vigilator
. Power Weapon: Power Sword

+ Elites +

Apothecarion Detachment [110pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus
. Apothecary, Legion: Artificer Armour, Power Armour
. . Chainsword or Combat Blade: Chainswords/Combat Blades
. Apothecary, Legion: Artificer Armour, Power Armour
. . Chainsword or Combat Blade: Chainswords/Combat Blades

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought [185pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus, Twin-linked Lascannon x 2

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad, Legion , Compulsory [305pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus, Bolters, 19x Tactical Space Marines, Legion
. Additional Wargear: Additional Chainswords/Combat Blades, Vexilla, Legion
. Tactical Sergeant, Legion: Artificer Armour, Bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Fist

Tactical Squad, Legion , Compulsory [235pts]: III: Emperor's Children, Bolters, 9x Tactical Space Marines, Legion
. Additional Wargear: Additional Chainswords/Combat Blades, Vexilla, Legion
. Rhino Armoured Carrier, Legion: Multi-melta
. Tactical Sergeant, Legion: Artificer Armour, Bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Fist

Tactical Support Squad, Legion Plasma Gun [235pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus, Plasma gun, Support Squad
. Rhino Armoured Carrier, Legion: Multi-melta
. Sergeant, Legion: Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Flamer
. 4x Space Marines, Legion: 4x Bolt Pistols, 4x Frag and Krak Grenades, 4x Power Armour

++ Total: [1,712pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The Praetor will be a counts-as for Saul Tarvitz, as his rules seem kinda lacklustre, considering he is the leader of the Loyalists on the ground of Isstvan III, but I might be wrong, let me know. Anyway, I'm thinking I need some melee units, as I think I'm fine with bodies for objectives and anti-armour capacities. I might even replace the Plasma Squad for an Assault Squad or something and grab a heavy support squad as well, would probably be fluffy too. I'm not really sure though, having not played either HH or 7th before, so I don't know what is actually good, and would be fluffy at the same time. Thanks for any help guys, it's greatly appreciated! I'll be sure to post the progress I make, even though I'm not that great at painting, lol.

Alright, so, like I said, I'd post any progress I make, I've finalised something that looks both fluffy and generally able to hold it's own against others. Here it is;

Legion and Allegiance: Loyalist, Shattered Legions
. III: Emperor's Children
. XII: World Eaters: Bloodlust
. XVI: Sons of Horus

Rite of War: Pride of the Legion

+ HQ +

Captain Saul Tarvitz [135pts]

Garviel Loken [175pts]

Warmonger [165pts]: XII: World Eaters, Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs, Power Fist
. Consul
. . Warmonger
. Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter, Legion: Heavy Bolter

+ Elites +

Apothecarion Detachment [55pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus
. Apothecary, Legion: Artificer Armour, Power Armour
. . Chainsword or Combat Blade: Chainswords/Combat Blades

+ Troops +

Terminator Squad, Legion , Compulsory [780pts]: XVI: Sons of Horus
. Spartan Assault Tank, Legion: XVI: Sons of Horus, Armoured Ceramite, Dozer Blade, Flare Shield, Quad Lascannon Sponsons x2, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter
. Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour
. Terminator Sergeant, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Grenade Harness, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Plasma Blaster
. . Power Weapon: Power Maul
. Terminators, Legion: Plasma Blaster
. . Power Weapon: Power Maul
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist
. Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist

Veteran Tactical Squad, Legion , Compulsory [263pts]: III: Emperor's Children, 8x Bolt Pistol, 8x Bolter, 8x Power Sword, 8x Veteran Space Marines, Legion, Veteran Tactics: Weaponmasters, Vexilla, Legion
. Veteran Sergeant, Legion: Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Phoenix Spear

+ Fast Attack +

Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron, Legion [180pts]: XII: World Eaters, 3x Heavy Bolter, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters
. Standard Wargear
. . Chainsword or Combat Blade: Chainaxe
. Additional Wargear
. . Melta Bombs
. Upgrade One Model to a Sky Hunter Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Fist

+ Heavy Support +

Land Raider Battle Squadron, Legion [245pts]: III: Emperor's Children
. Land Raider Phobos: Armoured Ceramite, 2x Twin-linked Lascannon Sponsons

++ Total: [1,998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

So, the Apo is with the Terminators and Loken in the Spartain, the Vets are in the Phobos Land Raider, the Warmonger deep strikes with the Sky Hunter Squad. This list is a lot more elites based, but it seems good and fluffy, considering the people who would have survived on the surface would generally be hardened Veterans or strong armoured Terminators. I'd love to include a Dreadnaught, but not sure if giving up the Land Raider would be worth it. What do you guys think? Should I drop something for a Contemptor Mortis/Cortus, and would more units be a better thing, or is elite the way to go? Let me know!

EDIT: Swapped the Artificer Armour on the Warmonger for the squad wide Melta Bombs on the Jetbikes, because the Jetbike gives the Warmonger a 2+.

I've been making goofs recently so i'm not going to wade into this thinking i can make proper suggestions, but the lack of even a single chainfist in the terminator squad looks odd!

Oh damn, I forgot about Chainfists, lol. Yeah, I'll add some of them in for sure! And feel free to make some proper suggestions, I'm completely new to the Horus Heresy, I'd love some more advice! I've seen 30k played in store once, and that was Custodes vs 1kSons, so I know my meta is probably pretty competitive, so I do need stuff that can deal with the WAAC types, which is mostly why I went with the Terminator Spartan, lol.

 iwatchastartesyuri wrote:
Oh damn, I forgot about Chainfists, lol. Yeah, I'll add some of them in for sure! And feel free to make some proper suggestions, I'm completely new to the Horus Heresy, I'd love some more advice! I've seen 30k played in store once, and that was Custodes vs 1kSons, so I know my meta is probably pretty competitive, so I do need stuff that can deal with the WAAC types, which is mostly why I went with the Terminator Spartan, lol.

Custodes are out-of-context for most Astartes, not necessarily drastically more powerful (especially after the Book 8 points hikes). Thousand Sons are potentially grotesquely powerful but they're also completely beholden to power generation dice (Iron Arm/Warp Speed Sekhmet do get to be S/T7 with 5 AP2 attacks at I7, but it's 1/36 that you get both powers) and can easily end up pretty weak if the dice don't go for you. I've taken both to tournaments and gotten walked all over by people with Surlak World Eaters (S6 Tacticals for the same cost as anyone else's) and Aquila Strongpoint lists; be aware that while you can be a WAAC type with both armies just playing them doesn't make you one.

I really wouldn't suggest a Shattered Legions list if you're new to 30k; it's a cool narrative mechanic but trying to keep track of three Legions and the interactions between their rules is going to make the game much harder to play. On top of that you're dumping a quarter of your points into three mediocre beatsticks; unless you're doing something with a Primarch I find 2k lists should have one Praetor for a Rite and one cheaper support character.

I'd strongly advise against the Terminators built like that. A Spartan deathstar isn't "shove any old Terminators in a Spartan and go forward"; it tends to run on either serving as Primarch delivery, special Terminator delivery, or both. Usually the only thing it's remotely cost-effective to throw a Spartan deathstar at is another deathstar, and in the grand scheme of deathstars fist/bolter Terminators aren't really that scary. The best you can hope for with that squad is mutual annihilation with another squad armed largely with Unwieldy weapons and poor Invulnerable saves, unless you attack non-melee units with them.

Also you can't join an Apothecary out of an Apothecarion Detachment to a Terminator squad, you need a Primus Medicae (the Apothecary Consul) and he isn't generally worth it unless you've got 2-Wound Terminators or a better Invulnerable save.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 iwatchastartesyuri wrote:
Oh damn, I forgot about Chainfists, lol. Yeah, I'll add some of them in for sure! And feel free to make some proper suggestions, I'm completely new to the Horus Heresy, I'd love some more advice! I've seen 30k played in store once, and that was Custodes vs 1kSons, so I know my meta is probably pretty competitive, so I do need stuff that can deal with the WAAC types, which is mostly why I went with the Terminator Spartan, lol.

Custodes are out-of-context for most Astartes, not necessarily drastically more powerful (especially after the Book 8 points hikes). Thousand Sons are potentially grotesquely powerful but they're also completely beholden to power generation dice (Iron Arm/Warp Speed Sekhmet do get to be S/T7 with 5 AP2 attacks at I7, but it's 1/36 that you get both powers) and can easily end up pretty weak if the dice don't go for you. I've taken both to tournaments and gotten walked all over by people with Surlak World Eaters (S6 Tacticals for the same cost as anyone else's) and Aquila Strongpoint lists; be aware that while you can be a WAAC type with both armies just playing them doesn't make you one.

I really wouldn't suggest a Shattered Legions list if you're new to 30k; it's a cool narrative mechanic but trying to keep track of three Legions and the interactions between their rules is going to make the game much harder to play. On top of that you're dumping a quarter of your points into three mediocre beatsticks; unless you're doing something with a Primarch I find 2k lists should have one Praetor for a Rite and one cheaper support character.

I'd strongly advise against the Terminators built like that. A Spartan deathstar isn't "shove any old Terminators in a Spartan and go forward"; it tends to run on either serving as Primarch delivery, special Terminator delivery, or both. Usually the only thing it's remotely cost-effective to throw a Spartan deathstar at is another deathstar, and in the grand scheme of deathstars fist/bolter Terminators aren't really that scary. The best you can hope for with that squad is mutual annihilation with another squad armed largely with Unwieldy weapons and poor Invulnerable saves, unless you attack non-melee units with them.

Also you can't join an Apothecary out of an Apothecarion Detachment to a Terminator squad, you need a Primus Medicae (the Apothecary Consul) and he isn't generally worth it unless you've got 2-Wound Terminators or a better Invulnerable save.

That's fair enough, I'm mostly just talking from the experience of my store's meta being pretty cutthroat, the guy who was playing Thousand Sons pretty much only does WAAC stuff in all the other games he plays, so I kind of just assumed. Could still be wrong though!

True, it would make it harder to play. I just really like Isstvan III and the whole story behind it, it's the thing that really got me into the lore surrounding the game. I'd also not really be sure what legion to go with, probably one of the three I've chosen, but I feel I might as well go straight for the Shattered Legion at that point, you know?

Yeah, that would probably work better. Mostly just fluff reasons that I'm using Tarvitz and Loken. The Warmonger was mainly for the deep striking, cause some damage in the backlines with Jetbikes.

Hmm, alright, that makes sense. I was trying to do a discount Primarch Deathstar with Loken as the Primarch equivalent and kill stuff, but it was a really bad idea in hindsight. Also I didn't know only Primus Medicae can join TDA units, that kinda sucks, but makes sense. Time to do some more thinking, and some more research into the legions I think, see if I can find something I want to play as a 'normal' legion. Maybe Word Bearers? Don't know.

That’s a somewhat worrying username you’ve got there

lol, yeah, it's certainly something. Some guy who told me I look like someone who would watch FSM Yuri, so I took it as my username.

 iwatchastartesyuri wrote:
...and some more research into the legions I think, see if I can find something I want to play as a 'normal' legion. Maybe Word Bearers? Don't know.

I tend to recommend people start off with Tactical Veterans in Rhinos under Pride of the Legion, almost independent of what Legion you're using. Rhinos are an incredibly cheap way to boost the survivability of small expensive squads, Tactical Veterans can be built to do a lot of different things, it gives you a really flexible force in small games and a solid core to build on for larger games, and you don't need to go buy a whole bunch of expensive resin minis. I've found that the Legions themselves are pretty well balanced; everyone's got at least some good stuff, nothing's really outright broken, and nobody's stuck with units that are just outright pointless (assuming you're using the playtest rules, at least). The only Legions I'd recommend approaching cautiously as a new player are the Thousand Sons (because of the randomness and excess bookkeeping) and the Space Wolves (because of byzantine army-composition restrictions), everyone else is pretty straightforward to figure out. And obviously the Dark Angels, who aren't really out yet.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 iwatchastartesyuri wrote:
...and some more research into the legions I think, see if I can find something I want to play as a 'normal' legion. Maybe Word Bearers? Don't know.

I tend to recommend people start off with Tactical Veterans in Rhinos under Pride of the Legion, almost independent of what Legion you're using. Rhinos are an incredibly cheap way to boost the survivability of small expensive squads, Tactical Veterans can be built to do a lot of different things, it gives you a really flexible force in small games and a solid core to build on for larger games, and you don't need to go buy a whole bunch of expensive resin minis. I've found that the Legions themselves are pretty well balanced; everyone's got at least some good stuff, nothing's really outright broken, and nobody's stuck with units that are just outright pointless (assuming you're using the playtest rules, at least). The only Legions I'd recommend approaching cautiously as a new player are the Thousand Sons (because of the randomness and excess bookkeeping) and the Space Wolves (because of byzantine army-composition restrictions), everyone else is pretty straightforward to figure out. And obviously the Dark Angels, who aren't really out yet.

Yeah, playtest rules for sure, seems like no real reason not to use them. And a lot of Veterans sounds like a good plan to build off, thinking an outflanking one and a Weaponmasters one, with two Termie squads, one Cataphracii and one Tartaros, for more durable units on the board T1. Then fill the rest of my points with the other necessary stuff like anti-armour/air. Just need to decide on a legion, though I am leaning towards keeping on with the Shattered Legion. Not 100% sure yet though, I do quite like the look of the Iron Hands, the Iron Warriors and the Raven Guard, along with the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus, of course. I'm thinking of going with the Iron Hands though, I'm a big fan of tanks and armoured assaults, plus I love their lore.

One of the biggest problems of the Horus Heresy is picking a legion! I started with Sons of Horus and really enjoy playing them, they have a great mix of legion special rules as well as having an interesting colour scheme.

As others have said, Shattered Legions are not a great place for beginners to start, particularly if you want to get the most out of the combination of legion rules. I recommend looking at as many aspects of the legions as you can and figure out which legion appeals to the most aspects. For example, look at paint schemes, legion specific units, legion rules, special characters, fluff, and so on. Hopefully you'll be able to settle on a single legion and start from there. You can then look at the black library books and horus heresy black books to get more inspiration for your chosen legion.

You can always add some units from another legion to turn your army into a Shattered Legion for some games if you want some variety further down the line.

I honestly can't recommend enough that it would be better to start with 1 legion. You'll find it much easier to stay focused and enjoy your army.

PS. I wouldn't recommend playing any games of horus heresy with WAAC players, the game system and rules don't cope well with people focusing on winning, rather than having a fun game. 30k players are generally more focused on painting, fluff and enjoying the game.

Iron Hands also gets you a foundation to do Shattered Legions with somewhere down the line since they get you Shadrak Meduson (the officer who organized the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders survivors after Istvaan V).

varyn wrote:One of the biggest problems of the Horus Heresy is picking a legion! I started with Sons of Horus and really enjoy playing them, they have a great mix of legion special rules as well as having an interesting colour scheme.

As others have said, Shattered Legions are not a great place for beginners to start, particularly if you want to get the most out of the combination of legion rules. I recommend looking at as many aspects of the legions as you can and figure out which legion appeals to the most aspects. For example, look at paint schemes, legion specific units, legion rules, special characters, fluff, and so on. Hopefully you'll be able to settle on a single legion and start from there. You can then look at the black library books and horus heresy black books to get more inspiration for your chosen legion.

You can always add some units from another legion to turn your army into a Shattered Legion for some games if you want some variety further down the line.

I honestly can't recommend enough that it would be better to start with 1 legion. You'll find it much easier to stay focused and enjoy your army.

PS. I wouldn't recommend playing any games of horus heresy with WAAC players, the game system and rules don't cope well with people focusing on winning, rather than having a fun game. 30k players are generally more focused on painting, fluff and enjoying the game.

Yeah, it really is super hard to just choose one!

Sucks, but that is fair enough. There are a few I like, but I think I'm going to go with Iron Hands, because tanks! Also, Autek Mor is a madman who slammed a moon into a planet, which is awesome. Plus, Raven Guard and Salamanders added to them with Shattered Legion would be fun when I know the rules better.

As for avoiding WAAC players, I hope I can! My store is full of them though, so I've learned to adapt, lol.

AnomanderRake wrote:Iron Hands also gets you a foundation to do Shattered Legions with somewhere down the line since they get you Shadrak Meduson (the officer who organized the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders survivors after Istvaan V).

Absolutely! Another reason to go with the IH. I might make a new thread, put my list in there, see what you guys think.