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Because, as much as anything in 40k makes sense (being science fantasy, with an emphasis on the unrealistic), they seem fine to me.
You get a ship. You slap some psychic mojo into the ship's outer hull and fields, to maintain your realspace presence, and enter the Warp. If the gellar field fails, daemons and other assorted badness gets in.
Gellar fields make sense, they don't create reality, they keep the warp out of the reality inside the ship. Obviously the Imperium, and by extension other users such as csm, don't fully understand how it works. The technology is simply reproduced by wrote. That's why the Imperium can't create its own webway.
Iracundus wrote: I get the feeling you are not really reading responses and are just repeating the same points over and over.
The Imperium doesn’t really use warp energy in any subtle way because the Imperium doesn’t seem to know how to. It may make use of large quantities of it in an uncontrolled way like with a Vortex missile or large quantities in a crude way like flaring vast quantities of it with the Astronomicon, or it can repel things such as with wards or a Gellar field. The Imperium does not have the skill nor technique for making permanent matter from the warp.
No one else but you is seeing any requirement for a Gellar field to create real space. It has been stated multiple times by multiple people that the Gellar field acts to keep the separation between the ship and the warp. That is what the hull of a submarine does. Keep the water out and the air in. The alternative of letting the water/warp flood inside is not conducive to the continued living of the people on board. Humans can not breathe warp energy and warp entities can manifest in areas saturated with warp energy, which is exactly what can happen if a ship’s Gellar field flickers or leaks.
You keep saying there is a logic trap or infinite loop but nobody is else is seeing any such contradiction, because there isn’t one.
Yes there is. You're simply not comprehending it. Appealing to popularity isn't an argument. If it were, Mcdonalds and Ariana Grande would be objectively the pinnacles of Gastronomy and Music. People generally are not very intelligent. They eat tide pods and hang plastic testicles foam the back of their tow bars.
A Gellar field is nothing like the hull of a submarine, it doesn't work that way, and the relationship between it is not comparable to that between steel and water (or whatever metal submarine hulls are made of).Warp energy is not analogous to water in that comparison. The only way it could work the way you just described is if two conditions changed:
A) There is a third type of prime matter that is not neither realspace nor Warp Energy, and this is generated by Gellar Fields
B) The warp or Gellar fields would need to start acting like physical properties which exist in realspace and would need to start observing physical relationships observed in realspace when interacting.
Since Neither is the case, we are left with the original conundrum--or perhaps paradox..
And that is, Gellar fields generate a pocket of realspace (This is in fact how they work according to the lore, not an issue of contention) either within or around spacecraft. Don't take it up with me. Take it up with the Wiki, which explicitly states:
The Gellar Field Device emits an energetic, invisible force field comprised of unknown subatomic particles called a Gellar Field, which essentially maintains a bubble of real space-time around a starship traveling through the Warp using the power of its sublight drives after utilising its Warp-Drive to pierce the veil between the physical universe and the Warp.
So in fact I was right all along. Gellar Fields literally do generate real space, which means the imperium has the power to generate reality.
Let's continue:
The concept here is that Gellar Fields create a bubble of real space around vessels which allows them to travel through the warp, which is supposedly a dimension in which real space (and time) doesn't make sense, and the protocols and laws of real space reality are not observed.
Space crafts are real space entities.
So A gellar field creates a real space field around a real space object inside the warp in order to protect a real space object from the forces of the warp which do not observe real space anyway. It is, to put it simply, doubling up on uselessness.
As I said originally, either the warp is a space where real space physics work, or it is not. There is no logical basis for the warp to make exceptions to it's own systems in order to ultimately oblige spacecraft by accommodating the very set of physical rules it not only rejects but is the antithesis of--That is, realspace, and realspace objects. Why for the love of God would you expect, given this set of parameters, a real space bubble to do anything at all? It is not possible for both not-warp rules and real space rules to exists concomitantly in any capacity because they contravene one another utterly by definition. If the warp makes exceptions to observe real space, it is not the warp, and its lore doesn't make sense. If Gellar fields do not work, the warp does make sense and Gellar fields are redundant/stupid. Both cannot logically resolve.
Either the warp lore is stupid, or the Gellar field lore is stupid. Pick one.
Genius 40K engineers:
"We can't travel through warp space because the laws of hysics don't apply'.
"I think I have a solution to that problem'.
'Oh yeah?"
"Yeah. Lets...let's generate a field of real space reality observing real space physics around space ships".
"Good plan. Should be fine. Glad we got to the bottom of it".
And that's it. Well, there is a third option, but pointing it out will probably get me banned.
A: Maintaining is not the same thing as generating
B: Gellar fields aren't pure realspace physics, as they require psykers to generate/operate. They have "something" to do with the intersection of realspace and warpspace, and that's enough.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Gellar fields make sense, they don't create reality, they keep the warp out of the reality inside the ship. Obviously the Imperium, and by extension other users such as csm, don't fully understand how it works. The technology is simply reproduced by wrote. That's why the Imperium can't create its own webway.
So the wiki is wrong and your headcannon is right.
And it makes sense but you can't explain it.
And somehow realspace is maintained inside a ship despite the laws of realspace not working in the warp anyway.
What a lightweight.
Neeeeext!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/15 03:43:00
Gadzilla666 wrote: Gellar fields make sense, they don't create reality, they keep the warp out of the reality inside the ship. Obviously the Imperium, and by extension other users such as csm, don't fully understand how it works. The technology is simply reproduced by wrote. That's why the Imperium can't create its own webway.
So the wiki is wrong and your headcannon is right.
The Gellar Field Device emits an energetic, invisible force field comprised of unknown subatomic particles called a Gellar Field, which essentially maintains a bubble of real space-time around a starship traveling through the Warp using the power of its sublight drives after utilising its Warp-Drive to pierce the veil between the physical universe and the Warp.
Keyword, maintains. Not creates-maintains.
What wiki are you reading?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Insectum7 wrote: A: Maintaining is not the same thing as generating
B: Gellar fields aren't pure realspace physics, as they require psykers to generate/operate. They have "something" to do with the intersection of realspace and warpspace, and that's enough.
A) Derp
B) Also Derp.
A) 'Derp' as in "I don't know that 'maintain' and 'generate' mean different things", I guess.
B) 'Also Derp' as in 'I can't possibly reexamine the constraints I've put on my model" I guess.
Insectum7 wrote: A: Maintaining is not the same thing as generating
B: Gellar fields aren't pure realspace physics, as they require psykers to generate/operate. They have "something" to do with the intersection of realspace and warpspace, and that's enough.
A) Derp
B) Also Derp.
A) 'Derp' as in "I don't know that 'maintain' and 'generate' mean different things", I guess.
B) 'Also Derp' as in 'I can't possibly reexamine the constraints I've put on my model" I guess.
If Gellar fields aren''t realspace physics than how do they create the conditions of realspace inside space vessels? hat would even be the point? And if you can't even explain you're on point I'm not doing it for you.
'Yer, y'know, it just, it is what it it is man'.
Lol go back to your Bongo drum champ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 04:01:04
Gadzilla666 wrote: Gellar fields make sense, they don't create reality, they keep the warp out of the reality inside the ship. Obviously the Imperium, and by extension other users such as csm, don't fully understand how it works. The technology is simply reproduced by wrote. That's why the Imperium can't create its own webway.
So the wiki is wrong and your headcannon is right.
And it makes sense but you can't explain it.
And somehow realspace is maintained inside a ship despite the laws of realspace not working in the warp anyway.
What a lightweight.
Neeeeext!
No, the rules of realspace don't apply to the warp, but they do apply to the ship and its contents because the Gellar field keeps the warp out of it, just like having a roof over your head keeps you dry during a thunderstorm. The roof doesn't create dryness, it maintains it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Gellar fields make sense, they don't create reality, they keep the warp out of the reality inside the ship. Obviously the Imperium, and by extension other users such as csm, don't fully understand how it works. The technology is simply reproduced by wrote. That's why the Imperium can't create its own webway.
So the wiki is wrong and your headcannon is right.
And it makes sense but you can't explain it.
And somehow realspace is maintained inside a ship despite the laws of realspace not working in the warp anyway.
What a lightweight.
Neeeeext!
No, the rules of realspace don't apply to the warp, but they do apply to the ship and its contents because the Gellar field keeps the warp out of it, just like having a roof over your head keeps you dry during a thunderstorm. The roof doesn't create dryness, it maintains it.
So then the Imperium has the ability to apply localized realspace reality. But they only use this tech inside the warp where no realspace physcis makes sense. But it does in the instance of space ships. Because reasons.
Insectum7 wrote: A: Maintaining is not the same thing as generating
B: Gellar fields aren't pure realspace physics, as they require psykers to generate/operate. They have "something" to do with the intersection of realspace and warpspace, and that's enough.
A) Derp
B) Also Derp.
A) 'Derp' as in "I don't know that 'maintain' and 'generate' mean different things", I guess.
B) 'Also Derp' as in 'I can't possibly reexamine the constraints I've put on my model" I guess.
If Gellar fields aren''t realspace physics than ho do they create the conditions of realspace inside space vessels? And if you can't even explain you're on point I'm not doing it for you.
'Yer, y'kno, it just, it is hat it it is man'.
Lol go back to your Bongo drum champ.
They don't create the conditions of realspace, they protect the realspace that was already there.
Like. . . The hull of a Submarine protects the interior from the outside water. The Submarine doesn't make new air inside it, it just recycles what it brought with it.
Roberts84 wrote: Like seriously I don'y know what anyone is doing here. I've got you all dog-circling in formal fallacy. This isn't a debate I can lose.
Repeatedly declaring how right you are does not make you any more right, it just makes you look foolish.
I'd suggest reading the linked Lexicanum article. You don't seem to have a very good knowledge of how Gellar Fields work.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Roberts84 wrote: Like seriously I don'y know what anyone is doing here. I've got you all dog-circling in formal fallacy. This isn't a debate I can lose.
Roberts84 wrote: Like seriously I don'y know what anyone is doing here. I've got you all dog-circling in formal fallacy. This isn't a debate I can lose.
Repeatedly declaring how right you are does not make you any more right, it just makes you look foolish.
I'd suggest reading the linked Lexicanum article. You don't seem to have a very good knowledge of how Gellar Fields work.
They don't work, and cannot work while the warp gets to work the way it does. You cannot occupy two contradictory positions concomitantly without constituting absurdity. Basic rule of logic. Guess members here didn't get the memo.
Nobody has been able to refute my central contention because it isn't possible. But I'm happy to sit here eating popcorn while you all clown yourselves.
Please clarify your position. Because, from what I can tell, you seem to be of the opinion that either the Imperium can make reality wholesale or Gellar Fields cannot work at all.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: Please clarify your position. Because, from what I can tell, you seem to be of the opinion that either the Imperium can make reality wholesale or Gellar Fields cannot work at all.
As I said originally, either the warp is a space where real space physics work, or it is not. There is no logical basis for the warp to make exceptions to it's own systems in order to ultimately oblige spacecraft by accommodating the very set of physical rules it not only rejects but is the antithesis of--That is, realspace, and realspace objects. Why for the love of God would you expect, given this set of parameters, a real space bubble to do anything at all? It is not possible for both not-warp rules and real space rules to exists concomitantly in any capacity because they contravene one another utterly by definition. If the warp makes exceptions to observe real space, it is not the warp, and its lore doesn't make sense. If Gellar fields do not work, the warp does make sense and Gellar fields are redundant/stupid. Both cannot logically resolve.
I'm not sure if this thread is worth it at this point, as Roberts84 seems pretty content not to look at the multitude of evidence provided to him that um...Gellar fields work? Given that we're working with fictional science here, all we have to look for is the internal consistency of whether it works within the established lore of the 40k setting. From what everyone has shown so far, Gellar Fields definitely make sense, since realspace and the warp are inherently separate, and the gellar field more or less maintains a bubble of reality from the madness that is the warp. I don't see how this is grounds for contention?
He just looks like he's getting off on insulting people and stroking his own ego about how smart he is (without showing any reason as to how he is), but given his previous posting history and belligerence, I don't think it's that surprising.
And water can normally move through air without a problem. But add a balloon covering the air, or a submarine hull, and suddenly it can't.
A Gellar Field is made of something that's capable of blocking the Warp out. What exactly it is (other than Psykery bull) is unknown, but it clearly works.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Grimskul wrote: I'm not sure if this thread is worth it at this point, as Roberts84 seems pretty content not to look at the multitude of evidence provided to him that um...Gellar fields work? Given that we're working with fictional science here, all we have to look for is the internal consistency of whether it works within the established lore of the 40k setting. From what everyone has shown so far, Gellar Fields definitely make sense, since realspace and the warp are inherently separate, and the gellar field more or less maintains a bubble of reality from the madness that is the warp. I don't see how this is grounds for contention?
He just looks like he's getting off on insulting people and stroking his own ego about how smart he is (without showing any reason as to how he is), but given his previous posting history and belligerence, I don't think it's that surprising.
I actually said at the very start of this fiasco that although Gellar fields are stupid, I don't especially care that they are because of exactly the reason you've outlined; it's scifi.
Then some dork said I was obligated to create a better concept. I said I was under no obligation to do so, not being a scifi writer.
Do I consider myself more intelligent than people arguing that they make sense? Yes. Yes I do.
Grimskul wrote: I'm not sure if this thread is worth it at this point, as Roberts84 seems pretty content not to look at the multitude of evidence provided to him that um...Gellar fields work? Given that we're working with fictional science here, all we have to look for is the internal consistency of whether it works within the established lore of the 40k setting. From what everyone has shown so far, Gellar Fields definitely make sense, since realspace and the warp are inherently separate, and the gellar field more or less maintains a bubble of reality from the madness that is the warp. I don't see how this is grounds for contention?
He just looks like he's getting off on insulting people and stroking his own ego about how smart he is (without showing any reason as to how he is), but given his previous posting history and belligerence, I don't think it's that surprising.
I actually said at the very start of this fiasco that although Gellar fields are stupid, I don't especially care that they are because of exactly the reason you've outlined; it's scifi.
Then some dork said I was obligated to create a better concept. I said I was under no obligation to do so, not being a scifi writer.
Do I consider myself more intelligent than people arguing that they make sense? Yes. Yes I do.
I said that, if you want to be taken seriously on the matter, you should either offer a better alternative or demonstrate you have a good working knowledge of the subject.
You have done neither.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: And water can normally move through air without a problem. But add a balloon covering the air, or a submarine hull, and suddenly it can't.
A Gellar Field is made of something that's capable of blocking the Warp out. What exactly it is (other than Psykery bull) is unknown, but it clearly works.
Sigh Jesus christ, I've already dealt with this argument. Second time I've heard it today. If you're not going to bother to read the original exchange I'm not deigning to respond to you again.
Grimskul wrote: I'm not sure if this thread is worth it at this point, as Roberts84 seems pretty content not to look at the multitude of evidence provided to him that um...Gellar fields work? Given that we're working with fictional science here, all we have to look for is the internal consistency of whether it works within the established lore of the 40k setting. From what everyone has shown so far, Gellar Fields definitely make sense, since realspace and the warp are inherently separate, and the gellar field more or less maintains a bubble of reality from the madness that is the warp. I don't see how this is grounds for contention?
He just looks like he's getting off on insulting people and stroking his own ego about how smart he is (without showing any reason as to how he is), but given his previous posting history and belligerence, I don't think it's that surprising.
I actually said at the very start of this fiasco that although Gellar fields are stupid, I don't especially care that they are because of exactly the reason you've outlined; it's scifi.
Then some dork said I was obligated to create a better concept. I said I was under no obligation to do so, not being a scifi writer.
Do I consider myself more intelligent than people arguing that they make sense? Yes. Yes I do.
I said that, if you want to be taken seriously on the matter, you should either offer a better alternative or demonstrate you have a good working knowledge of the subject.
You have done neither.
I do. You don't. I even provided a wiki excerpt. Maybe the community is wrong and you're right. Maybe you're just more knowledgeable than a community of peer review.
But since you can't even comprehend that it's impossible to occupy two opposing positions concomitantly, I'm going to suggest that's unlikely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 04:25:17
JNAProductions wrote: And water can normally move through air without a problem. But add a balloon covering the air, or a submarine hull, and suddenly it can't.
A Gellar Field is made of something that's capable of blocking the Warp out. What exactly it is (other than Psykery bull) is unknown, but it clearly works.
Sigh Jesus christ, I've already dealt with this argument. Second time I've heard it today. If you're not going to bother to read the original exchange I'm not deigning to respond to you again.
You do realize that the reason it's worth repeating is that you haven't actually offered a counterargument to it. If you have a legitimate rebuttal, by all means, tell us.
Roberts84 wrote: I do. You don't. I even provided a wiki excerpt. Maybe the community is wrong and you're right. Maybe you're just more knowledgeable than a community of peer review.
But since you can't even comprehend that it's impossible to occupy two opposing positions concomitantly, I'm going to suggest that's unlikely.
You provided an excerpt from the wiki article I linked you to.
And you failed at reading it properly-they do not CREATE realpsace, they maintain the realspace of the ship while the outside is in the Warp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 04:27:16
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: And water can normally move through air without a problem. But add a balloon covering the air, or a submarine hull, and suddenly it can't.
A Gellar Field is made of something that's capable of blocking the Warp out. What exactly it is (other than Psykery bull) is unknown, but it clearly works.
Sigh Jesus christ, I've already dealt with this argument. Second time I've heard it today. If you're not going to bother to read the original exchange I'm not deigning to respond to you again.
You do realize that the reason it's worth repeating is that you haven't actually offered a counterargument to it. If you have a legitimate rebuttal, by all means, tell us.
Is that really what it's come to? Willful ignorance? Pathetic.
Happy to own you again though. Now; tell me explicitly how it is, exactly, that the warp can both ignore real space conditions and remain true to its lore whilst acomodating realspace conditions inside a metal space ship.
I may be wrong, but I have the feeling Roberts is questioning how a realspace generator, which uses realspace physics to generate realspace, can work in the warp where realspace physics break down.
In which case, in his haste to so charismatically declare himself king of the nerds at the tender postcount of 258 (let's see if he makes it to 300), he's missing that it's generated by a psyker. Which means warp energy, not realspace physics.
In other words, magic did it.
Unless it's something more mundane like "why doesn't the imperium use this warp-invading/stabilising technology for anything more than hurtling spaceships through hyperhellspace"... in which case, meh, who cares. That's what Eisenhorn cut Quixos up for trying, wasn't it?
Vermis wrote: In which case, in his haste to so charismatically declare himself king of the nerds at the tender postcount of 258 (let's see if he makes it to 300), he's missing that it's generated by a psyker. Which means warp energy, not realspace physics.
In other words, magic did it.
Would it surprise you to learn that this was already bought up?
Edit: and ignored?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 04:32:16
The Submarine doesn't make new air inside it, it just recycles what it brought with it.
