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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 12:13:48
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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So I have seen a lot of ideas on other threads about what needs to be done to make marines of all stripes (non primaris) "worth" taking. For me, I think chaos marines are OK when in certain situations and decent for a Red Corsair detachments.
I think the solution is two fold. We know GW are not going to give non primaris/terminator marines two or more wounds so lets steer clear of that idea. With this in mind my idea is thus, give marines/devastators/havocs ect a rule called Astartes/Heretical Powered Armor. This would make any weapon pen statistic under -3 unable to apply that penetration to armor saves (the wording needs a lot of cleaning but I think I am getting the basic point across). This would allow dedicated power armor killers (plasma) to still put serious hurt on the target. Perhaps standard bolters need to go to -1 AP as well.
So my question is this, do you think this ruling would help the situation or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Rubrics and SoC's already have a ruling similar to this that offers a lot of protection vs standard infantry firepower. It has saved a lot of rubrics in a lot of games ive played.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/24 12:15:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 12:17:00
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don’t think they will do anything to buff old marines they will just leave them in the codex until enough people have bought enough primaris that they stop including old marines in their army. So that you have chosen to retire old marines not GW
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/24 12:17:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 12:26:50
Subject: Re:Do you think this would fix marines?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Marines both sizes are top meta armies right now often with a mix of old and new marines.
Marines don't need more buffs and the edition change rules changes will need to be seen in a lot more detail before any call to buffing top meta armies sound reasonable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 12:28:41
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Oldmarines (= loyalists) are not going to receive any kind of targeted buffs for them. They are just there because many SM players have vast quantity of oldmarines and GW don't want to make them obsolete too soon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 12:34:28
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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I also don't think that Marines need any buffs. Primaris on the other hand need a big fat points hike.
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VAIROSEAN LIVES! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 12:37:13
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Norn Queen
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The entire point is to soft squat oldmarines anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 13:17:42
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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They aren’t going to buff oldmarines, they are basically obsolete models to GW that are getting legacy support as more primaris kits come out they will be used less and less.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 13:34:14
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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The problem with Marines isn't anything to do with their statline, it's that the amount of firepower in the game has grown enormously and the advantages of being a Space Marine over a Guardsman are irrelevant when someone's throwing twenty or thirty plasma-equivalent shots at a time into your squads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/24 13:34:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 13:37:09
Subject: Re:Do you think this would fix marines?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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He's not just talking about loyalists, he's talking about csm as well, who haven't been "squated" by primaris.
And he's basically proposing that marines function with a modified version of the old ap/armour save system.
Sounds interesting. Maybe we should evaluate the idea instead of arguing about tacticals vs primaris for the umpteenth time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 13:41:39
Subject: Re:Do you think this would fix marines?
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Dangerous Duet
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I think a reduced point cost or increasing primaris point cost would ve sufficient. That's mostly how people evaluate firstborn marines vs primaris marines : point cost and efficiency
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 13:47:35
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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harlokin wrote:I also don't think that Marines need any buffs. Primaris on the other hand need a big fat points hike.
Except no they don't as any problems in the Marine codex come from Doctrines + Super Doctrines + an asinine amount of Strats
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 13:57:24
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think the best way to fix marines is to give every other faction in the game 150+ units to choose from.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 14:12:20
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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PenitentJake wrote:I think the best way to fix marines is to give every other faction in the game 150+ units to choose from.
Actually Marinea could have units removed and it would be fine. Do we really want FOUR separate Terminator entries when in reality it can all be covered in just one?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 14:21:12
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:PenitentJake wrote:I think the best way to fix marines is to give every other faction in the game 150+ units to choose from.
Actually Marinea could have units removed and it would be fine. Do we really want FOUR separate Terminator entries when in reality it can all be covered in just one?
Then the Dark Angels and Space Wolves players would have to get pissy about other people being able to mix assault Terminator/tactical Terminator gear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 14:32:39
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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AnomanderRake wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:PenitentJake wrote:I think the best way to fix marines is to give every other faction in the game 150+ units to choose from.
Actually Marinea could have units removed and it would be fine. Do we really want FOUR separate Terminator entries when in reality it can all be covered in just one?
Then the Dark Angels and Space Wolves players would have to get pissy about other people being able to mix assault Terminator/tactical Terminator gear.
Works just fine for csm. And do loyalists really need separate data sheets for every terminator armour mark? We don't have separate data sheets for mark III and mark IV armour.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 14:50:27
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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AnomanderRake wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:PenitentJake wrote:I think the best way to fix marines is to give every other faction in the game 150+ units to choose from.
Actually Marinea could have units removed and it would be fine. Do we really want FOUR separate Terminator entries when in reality it can all be covered in just one?
Then the Dark Angels and Space Wolves players would have to get pissy about other people being able to mix assault Terminator/tactical Terminator gear.
Yeah I don't really care what they think. A consolidated profile of M5" 2+/4++ and all the weapon options there. BAM you saved a bunch of space.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 14:53:21
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Fixture of Dakka
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AnomanderRake wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:PenitentJake wrote:I think the best way to fix marines is to give every other faction in the game 150+ units to choose from.
Actually Marinea could have units removed and it would be fine. Do we really want FOUR separate Terminator entries when in reality it can all be covered in just one?
Then the Dark Angels and Space Wolves players would have to get pissy about other people being able to mix assault Terminator/tactical Terminator gear.
Nah, it could be worded to replicate the existing squad types.
Rough ex: you must choose what type of terminator squad the unit is.
Choose from one of the following - assault, tactical, cataphracti(?) Or ??? (The other one I never remember).
Then list the options/requirements for each.
Might take up 2 pages & not really save any space vs just listing 4 different data cards.... But it'd pander to those who can't handle SM having 4 entries for termies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 15:19:38
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You see a lot of "the MEQ stat line doesn't work" - but its nonsense. A Stat line is worth a certain number of points - it can't "not work" on its own.
Unpopular take - but after spending a large part of 2018 whinging about Marines at 13 points, the various buffs and points reductions probably make them about right now.
How low should a basic CSM guy go? 10 points? 9 points? 7?
His stat line wouldn't change - he'd just become incredibly good.
I think its important to get the complaint right - this is more for the thread than the OP. A rule say that Marines automatically ignore AP -1 and AP -2 wouldn't help them being hosed down by plasma. Such a rule would make plasma etc even more necessary, since its the only thing that works (hello 3rd edition).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 15:40:50
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Dakka Veteran
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I think that both the most likely fix (which still isn't going to happen because I agree with everyone else: tactical marines are being soft-squatted,) is the addition of some new strategies specifically aimed at tactical marines and their equivalents.
Maybe something like:
2cp = Choose one:
All your tactical marines get +1 to hit for this round of shooting.
All your tactical marines get +1 to wound for this round.
All your tactical marines get +1 attack for this round.
All your tactical marines get +1 to armor saves for this round.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/24 15:45:33
Subject: Do you think this would fix marines?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Tyel wrote:You see a lot of "the MEQ stat line doesn't work" - but its nonsense. A Stat line is worth a certain number of points - it can't "not work" on its own.
Unpopular take - but after spending a large part of 2018 whinging about Marines at 13 points, the various buffs and points reductions probably make them about right now.
How low should a basic CSM guy go? 10 points? 9 points? 7?
His stat line wouldn't change - he'd just become incredibly good.
I think its important to get the complaint right - this is more for the thread than the OP. A rule say that Marines automatically ignore AP -1 and AP -2 wouldn't help them being hosed down by plasma. Such a rule would make plasma etc even more necessary, since its the only thing that works (hello 3rd edition).
It isn't overall nonsense because it always does end up being priced like you're using every single stat a turn.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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